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Posts posted by Treflienne

  1. On 5/12/2018 at 12:54 PM, Southpaw said:

    Also I spoke with some friends that have strict religious / moral standards and the skorts do not make the cut.

    Definitely not.  

    If BSA wants to accommodate families who are very conservative about girls' clothing, that can be easily solved.  Just make the pants material available by the yard, and those girls could make their own skirts, of suitably long length.  Skirts are not hard to make, and families who don't approve of modern styling almost certainly have sewing skills.

    Those skorts are just so wrong.

    As a field uniform, light-weight nylon zip-offs seem much more practical.  Easy to cover the legs when needed when dealing with ticks, mosquitoes, and poison ivy.

    And even though I am not particularly conservative about clothing (have no objections to girls wearing jeans to church) I generally dislike the mini-skirt skorts.  They look like they are just one gust of wind away from too much exposure, and therefore seem to be inviting inappropriate attention directed at the legs.


    • Upvote 4
  2. On 5/12/2018 at 3:39 PM, David CO said:

    If two councils merge, and they each had a unit with the same number, one (or both) of the units has to change. It is unfortunate, but necessary.

    In my area, there are a half-dozen towns that have a Boy Scout Troop 1.   At least three of these are in the same district of the same council.

    So, I am confused.  Do boy scout troops get to pick their own number?  Will the new Scouts BSA girls' troops get to pick their own troop numbers?  What criteria are there?

    (In GSUSA the numbers are assigned.  In my area they are assigned 5-digit numbers which are very very hard to remember.)

  3. 16 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

    My recommendation is to move past rehashing this debate.  Instead of fearing that girls are going to ruining Boy Scouting, work with the girls to create really strong co-ed troops.   

    What ideas do y'all have for co-ed/linked troops, to keep things as good as possible for the boys while still letting the girls in? 

    What about a strong emphasis on doing as much as possible by patrol, with each patrol having its own identity and camaraderie.  Let the patrols camp some distance apart.  Encourage the patrols to go on occasional patrol outings and overnights.  The linked girls troop would essentially be a girls' patrol.  And the boys would have their boy-only space within their patrols.

    • Upvote 1
  4. 20 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

    People are going to go with the path of least resistance and that is to go coed.    It solves too many problems to not be an option for many groups. 

    'fraid so.

    My personal preference would be for my daughter to join a thriving all-girls BSA troop which has a range of ages and experience levels in the girls, from tenderfoot to Eagle, and has an experienced scoutmaster and ASMs, and plenty of adult volunteers, a good alumni network, a good supply of equipment, and a decent bank balance.  And uses the patrol system well.

    Such a troop does not exist.   So do I want:

          a) a brand-new all-girls troop:   inexperienced young girls,  inexperienced scouters, no money, no equipment, no oldtimers to mentor the newcomers


          b) a "linked" troop which is, effectively, an all-girls patrol within an existing well-established, thriving BSA troop.

    Probably (b) if (b)  ends up being an option.

  5. 30 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

    I was a Brownie co-leader for 1 year, and I can assure you that the majority of GSA leaders were fine with their program just the way that it was.

    But not all of them.  Especially not all of the old-timers.   Some of the vocal groups have been "GSUSA are you listening?",  "The Outdoor Journey Project", . . .

    And if you want to see some internal GSUSA complaints, there are some here:


    With commentary here: http://girlscoutwithacause.dawgtoons.com/2015/10/white-paper-hub-bub/

    And if the outdoors-interested old-timers cannot get GSUSA to listen,  . . . .


    • Thanks 1
    • Upvote 1
  6. 42 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

    I plan to send Class B a custom design

    I missed reading this before I wrote my not-quite-simultaneous post.   A custom design sounds great!    Much better than just picking something someone else has made.

    GSUSA does troop crests rather than patrol patches.   For years they used to make available blank troop crests, so that troops could embroider their own if they didn't like any of the available styles.   But they discontinued this when they changed the shape of the troop crest and reduced the number of options to sixteen.   My daughter's troop didn't like any of them and so skipped the troop crest entirely.

  7. 19 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

    Obviously, there are not a high number of girl-centric patrol patches already in existence (though I did surprisingly find a Power Puffs Girls cartoon patrol patch called Cartoon Power on Class B - http://tradingpost.classb.com/cartoon-power-patrol-patch/ and I had to wonder which existing patrol would use such?!?).


    6 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

    Class B girl-oriented patches should be fine.  I see no issue with that.  

    Why do you think that the girls will want "girl-centric" or "girl-oriented" patches?   Their interests (especially for girls willing to join an organization called "Boy Scouts") are much broader than that.

    By the way,  I am also horrified by pink tools for girls and pastel building-block sets.   If you give girls primarily that kind of stuff you are essentially saying that everything else is not for them. 

    • Upvote 1
  8. 51 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    Take no thought for tomorrow, for today has enough troubles of its own.

    Sorry, I didn't write the rules.


    28 minutes ago, cocomax said:

    I would rather. . . 

    Be prepared.

    "Take therefore no thought for the morrow" is archaic (early 1600's) phraseology. A more modern translation might be clearer: "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow".

    I never saw this as being in opposition to "be prepared".

  9. 16 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    I'll rephrase 2 and 3

    2) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to go on a weekend camp out, do you cancel the trip for everyone, cancel the trip just for the girls, or ignore the rules/

    3) What if you cannot get a registered female over 21 to stay the entire week of summer camp, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, talk tot he camp to see if they can help?

    3A) what happens if you have a week long trek and cannot get a registered female over 21 to go, cancel for everyone, cancel just the girls, or ignore the rules?


    Cancel it just for the girls.   That will give the incentive for one of the girls' moms to step up and volunteer.

    Doing otherwise (cancelling for the boys too) would just make everyone mad at the girls.

    Cancelling for just the girls would only upset the girls, and then they can badger their moms to volunteer.

    • Upvote 1
  10. On 4/11/2018 at 2:45 PM, T2Eagle said:

    You maybe on the way to being registered, but you may not be there yet.

    You were right.  It was time for me to follow up.  The word is that the registrar needs to process it through the system.  But I now at least have a receipt for my check.  (And I did send the YPT certificate, etc.)  Thanks for the advice.

    On 4/11/2018 at 2:45 PM, T2Eagle said:

    On a different note, would you mind telling us what is motivating you and your daughters to join, how old are they and what is your experience with the program, if any.

    My previous experience with BSA?  None to speak of.  Previous experience with scouting: GSUSA, including TOFS troops, and opportunities to interact with Girl Guides from other countries.

    This left me with the sense that scouting/guiding is not an activity you go and do once in a while, instead, being a scout/guide is something you are.  And it is not tied to one single national scouting/guiding organization.

    I had become somewhat frustrated with the direction the GSUSA program materials have been going --- seeming to try to attract the kind of girls who hadn't been interested in scouting if scouting involved going outside and getting dirty. It seemed to me that GSUSA, while they still have the stated mission that "Girl Scouting builds girls of courage, confidence, and character, who make the world a better place", has largely dropped the game of scouting with its patrols, camping, rank advancement, etc, as a means to that goal.

    But we had been sticking with that organization, because it has much good in its history, and because there weren't any other scouting organizations realistically available to us. We simply didn't use the program materials we disliked.

    My daughter (grade 6), hearing that BSA would be opening up to girls, picked up a boy scout handbook and started reading it, and comparing it with the current GSUSA program materials, and with the older girl scout books from the 1920s and 1930s (yes I have those, and they quote Baden-Powell on "how camping teaches the Guide Law"). She concluded that modern BSA sounded like a better program than modern GSUSA, and that modern BSA is much more similar to the old GSUSA than the modern GSUSA is.

    And I figure that if she wants to become a boy scout, then I need to learn more about BSA and be ready to volunteer in some capacity if needed.  Because if no one volunteers then there won't be any BSA4G troops. And while she will need to wait till next February to join, I can go ahead and join now and start taking training.

    I expect that switching organizations might be a bit of a culture shock.  So, besides watching the training videos on my.scouting.org (which I found informative) I'm also reading some of the discussions here on scouter.com to learn a little of the culture, and reading various books recommended here such as "Working the Patrol Method" and "So Far, So Good"

    • Like 3
    • Upvote 1
  11. 14 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

     I’m confused, why can’t you be involved in scouting if there are no BSA4G troops?


    4 hours ago, scotteg83 said:

    Sounds like they are trying to be prepared for the new Girls in Troops coming in 2019.  But why join a Boy Troop, just to leave and take over a Girl Troop in a year.

    That's right.  I'm not already connected to any of the local boy scout troops, because I don't have a son already in boy scouts. And it is not yet clear which of the local troops might be interested in being linked with a BSA4G troop next year.     (My daughter wants to join, and with a new troop it seems to me that there is a high probability that more volunteers will be wanted.)

  12. I was able to register for IOLS through the council website without begining registered with BSA.   (At least the online system took my money and sent me out an automated email.)

    But, I was concerned that I would be thrown off the attendee list not being registered with BSA,  so I set about doing that.   That,  it turns out, was much harder to do, since I am not part of a unit yet (no BSA4G units yet exist).  Eventually the advice from the local Family Scouting Committee was to register as a "District Reserve Scouter" which required a paper form sent snail mail.  I've gotten confirmation that the form has arrived.   I suppose I am now registered.   IOLS will happen later this month.

  13. 12 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    If girls could enhance, or just even maintain the "present" quality or boys in the program, I would support it. I believe girls are a benefit at the Venturing Crew ages of scouting. But I have been working with youth and parents long enough to know that adding more complex elements of individualism to an already challenging program intended to shape behavior requires a discipline that National has never shown us to have.


    21 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    Or ... if they really want a job, have them team up with a mom or two recruit some sisters and girlfriends and start a BSA4G troop next year. :)

    So . . . I am one of the newbies interested in BSA4G.  Why?  Because my daughter has compared the Boy Scout handbook with the various "Girls Guides to Girl Scouting" and GSUSA "Journeys" and she wants to switch.  (And I agree with her opinion.)

    While I want the girls to have a better program than they do now, I certainly don't want to diminish the boys' experience.  I see the place for a single-gender male environment (and one for a single gender female environment also).  And it's not like the sixth grade girls actually want to have anything to do with the sixth grade boys, they'd rather have their own group -- just doing the same program the boys do but without the boys.

    So, it would be great to have a truly singer-gender BSA4G troop, meeting and camping completely separately from the boys.  But, the idea of getting a new troop off the ground is daunting, especially for someone new to the whole program.  I've been thinking that it sure would be easier and more realistic to get a BSA4G troop started if it were closely linked to an existing troop, even to the extent of a significant amount of shared activities, even though my natural preference would be for a girls-only environment.

    That is where some of you oldtimers, who have scoutmaster experience, and who want to maintain the single-gender environment for the boys, could be really helpful.  Volunteer to help with a new BSA4G troop -- in order to keep the troop really separate from the boys' troop.  (And if you are of a grandfatherly age, so much the better.  The girls'
    moms will be more at ease with you in troop leadership that if you were twenty-something.)

    • Like 1
    • Upvote 2
  14. On 4/7/2018 at 1:37 PM, ParkMan said:

    While I think it's very good material for every direct contact leader to know, I groan at yet another course for leaders to have to take.  I almost wish that the BSA would find an equivalent amount of material to trim from the new online leader training.  I think there are currently 17 courses for position specific, 3 for YPT, and now this to be an ASM.

    Having just gone through all 17 modules, and the YPT,  that wasn't too burdensome.  It helps that you can do it in 10 minutes here and 15 minutes there.   I thought that they were quite informative for a newbie like me.

    • Upvote 1
  15. On 4/7/2008 at 1:05 PM, emb021 said:

    "GSUSA keeps trying to change based on what the girls who aren't members say. Then those same girls say, "Well, duh! I'm not going to join anyway." "

    That seems to be the impression of others.

    Was chatting with a fellow leader at the WSJ from my area, who is/was also involved in GSUSA. She felt that all these changes in GSUSA was an attempt to attract girls who won't be interested in being in Girl Scouts, which just turned away the girls who DID want to be in Girl Scouts. Go figure.

    Studio 2B is a good example of this.

    I realize that this is an old thread, and the "another girl scout makeover" of the title happened a few years ago, and we got "Journeys" which do seem like
    "an attempt to attract girls who won't be interested in being in Girl Scouts".

    It will be interesting to see how many of the "girls who DID want to be in Girl Scouts" end up deciding to join the BSA now that that is becoming an option for them.


  16. 31 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

     I imagine their professionals just haven't caught up with modernizing their documentation.


    Lack of modernizing their documentation is not, in my experience, GSUSA's problem.   In generally, too much modernization.  Throwing out the old and in with the new.


  17. 36 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

    I don't think we have received the survey for this year for some reason.

    Not everyone gets the survey.  This is the first year I recall getting one.  My email said:


    Who gets this survey?  Please do not forward or share this email with others - it is customized for you. Because of random selection, not all adults will receive a survey.  If your girl is also randomly selected to participate she will receive an email --either to this account or to her own


  18. On 3/26/2018 at 5:58 PM, ItsBrian said:

    There are plenty heavy coats that are thin and not bulky. I’m 15, and I personally hate bulky winter coats. I wear a Calvin Klein coat that has worked perfectly all winter for me. 

    ItsBrian has a good point here.  It might be worth making sure she has a coat, hat, and mittens that she likes.   At this age, maybe she wants the pretty pink winter mittens and not the black battered hand-downs from the older brother.   Depending on your budget,  it might be worth getting her something she likes if it makes life more peaceful for the family.

  19. Hi @ScottishNamoi,

    I am going to break my advice into two parts  1) to you as Mom and 2) to you as Brownie Assistant Leader

    1) First, as a mom: we want to help our kids grow up and take or more and more responsibility for themselves in an age-appropriate way. Choosing one's own outdoor wraps is a great way to work on this for younger children. In general I think that age six is not too young to begin working towards the goal of the child independently and appropriately selecting her outerwear, and living uncomplainingly with the results.

    In a non-camp setting, for example if your children want to go play in the yard, in 35F degree weather, in the snow, in short sleeves, then you let them do this, and make no comment at all when they come back inside in 5 minutes to fetch coats and hats.  (And if they don't come back in 10-15 minutes, you go out and check up on them. But if they are running around they might not be cold.)

    If the child will be away from home for several hours, then, at this age, I would insist she take her coat (maybe in a daypack) but not insist she wear it.  She can decide for herself when to put it on.

    If the weather is extreme (for us, below zero Fahrenheit (-18C) will typically only occur only a few days a year) then provide more supervision.  Enforce appropriate clothing if needed.

    31 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

    ensure her comfort and safety, whether she is willing to accept it yet or not.

    Absolutely insist she do it your way if it is safety issue. (frostbite, hypothermia). But if it is merely a comfort issue, let her do it her way and learn from the results.

    This process may take several years and will generally involve her being uncomfortably (but not dangerously) cold or hot at times, as the child makes her choices and learns to live with them.  Complaining at you needs to be discouraged.  Remind her who decided what she should wear.

    2) To you as Brownie Assistant: Here my advice is based on GSUSA Brownies, take what is useful and leave the rest.  At camp you are there for all the girls, not just your daughter.  You need to (figuratively) take off your Mom hat and put on your leader hat.  So you should treat all the girls the same way.  If you are reminding your daughter about her coat, don't do it any differently than you would for the other Brownies.  Better yet, have another leader (whose daughter does not have coat problems) deal with all the Brownie coat issues.  She can (depending on the weather circumstances) either a) remind them to think about whether they want coats or b) tell them all they need to take coats with them or c) require them all to put their coats on.  Talk this strategy over with the other leaders in advance. This is what we did when camping with Brownies -- any girl asking for help was directed to a leader who was not her mother.


    • Upvote 2
  20. 1 hour ago, RebekahTN said:

    and they quickly put something together.

    That is actually my impression in general of the materials that came out with the wholesale revamp around the time of the 100th anniversary.  I think they tried to change too much all at once, and had trouble doing it well.  A few badges seem coherent and well thought out.   Other badges seem really scattered.  And the Daisy Petal characters and the Dez spider were bizarre.

    • Upvote 1
  21. On 3/26/2018 at 3:43 PM, ScottishNaomi said:

    She goes on numerous guides camping trips mainly to get to know the other guides from other areas and, due to the fact it can get cold, especially at night when they are around the camp fire singing songs and generally interacting, I always try to ensure she is wearing her warm jacket and has it done up but she refuses point blank to wear it so I leave her to her own choice but she then complains to me whilst I'm tucking her in bed, that she is frozen.

    Any tips?

    I found your scenario a bit confusing, possibly because of the difference between the Girl Scouts and the Girl Guides on the two sides of the Atlantic.

    If I understand right:

    You live in Scotland.

    Your daughter, age 6 is a Brownie in Scotland, and you are an assistant in her group.

    Your daughter camps with the Guides.

    You are along on these camping trips, and you tuck her into bed at night after the campfire.

    Here are my questions:

    1) If she is age 6,  isn't she the age to be a Rainbow, not a Brownie?

    2) If she is a Brownie (or a Rainbow) why is she camping with the Guides (age 10+)? Are you using "guide" as a general term for any member any age of GirlGuiding?  Or is the Brownie Pack camping together with the Guides.  Or are you also a helper with the Guides, and she is tagging along as your daughter?

    3) Why are you tucking her in at night?  Is this a mother-daughter campout and all the Brownies have their mothers along to tuck them in? If not, and you are there as her leader, not as her mother, then shouldn't you be treating her exactly the same as the other girls? And surely you aren't tucking in all the girls?  (In Girl Scouts of the USA we were strictly told that the adults were not to enter the girls' tents, even for Brownies.)

    4) Just how cold were these nights?  Freezing (32F = 0C)?  Cool (50F = 10C)?

    So it is a little difficult to give specific advice, because the description in confusing, but that partly might be because of the different countries and Guiding/Scouting organizations.  So please clear things up about how things work in Scotland.


    • Upvote 1
  22. Given how limited the number of badge choices is for the girls, I was interested in the new STEM badges available.  So last summer I shelled out money and bought the pamphlets for the new Daisy, Brownie, and Junior robotics badges.

    I was really disappointed in them.  Here is an example from one of them:
    Junior Robotics. (for 4th-5th graders)
    Badge 2 Designing Robots.  (This badge has 5 steps)

    Step 3 Plan your robot.

       "Engineers look for needs in our world and build robots that solve problems both big and small. If you could build a robot that solves a global problem, what would your robot do?  What would it look like/ What parts would it need?  Brainstorm and sketch your ideas for robots that can help others.  Share your sketches with other Juniors to improve your designs, and choose one to create a prototype of in Step 4"

    Step 4 Create a Prototype

        "Engineers create prototypes, a quick way to show an idea to  others or to try it out.  It can be as simple as a drawing or  created with common materials, such as cardboard, paper, and string.  Now is your chance to build a prototype of your robot.  Remember, you're creating a robot, not a simple machine, so you'll also need to create a step-by-step program for your robot to 'run.'"

    This badge sees really unsubstantial, merely let's-pretend and arts-n-crafts.

    Kids this age are capable of more.  When my son was this age, he was programming Lego mindstorms robots, and learning to write simple programs in Python.

  23. 13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

    Update on more girl (and unisex) uniform options.

    (Olive green skorts) is on the list.   Adjustments to the blue skort are already in the plans (like pockets).  On the list is also a Capri pant and new unisex shorts made from a performance fabric.

    Really? No pockets in the skort?!  Didn't they realize that girls would want pockets, just like the boys?  I hope they don't feminize other aspects of the program to "accommodate" the girls.

    Just last week I heard a group of 6th-8th girls complaining that it was no good that girls' pants (unlike boys' pants) don't have pockets.

    And really, at the cub age, the girls can wear exactly the same clothes as the boys, anyway.


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