Treflienne

4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

a lot of language from GSUSA about the power of G.I.R.L.s

While the "G.I.R.L." advertising push is relatively new,  the girls-can-do-anything-including-in-fields-previously-offlimits-to-females emphasis of GSUSA has been around for a long time  -- I can remember it going back to at least the 1980's.  The ironic thing now is that their message now seems to be that it is great for girls to aspire to anything they desire, except joining the Boy Scouts.  

46 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I wouldn’t be shocked if BSA/GSUSA settle and BSA helps fund a name change of GSUSA to Girl Guides USA.

I would be utterly shocked if GSUSA were willing to change their name to Girl Guides.   The name "Girl Guides" or "Guides" has, in my experience, very very little name recognition in the U.S.    Our young Girl Scouts always seem surprised to learn that Girl Scouts in other countries are called "Guides".    If GSUSA is worried about confusion over names with both GSUSA and BSA applying the word "scouts" to girls in this country,   then they would be even more concerned about the name-recognition suicide that would be the result of changing their name to "Guides".

7 hours ago, Setonfan said:

Do we really think parents are truly confused that both organizations exist?

1 hour ago, awanatech said:

Yes, people are confused that both organizations exist and are separate.  I have been surprised at the number of people who truly did not know that the 2 organizations were not the same.  And even more so to find out that they are not finally joining into one organization. 

And we actually have a really simple situation with scouting in this country.  Compare it with France.  According to wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_and_Guiding_in_France )

Quote

The Scout movement in France consists of about 80 different associations and federations with about 180,000 Scouts and Girl Guides.

The article says

Quote

The Girl Scouts seek a court order blocking the Boy Scouts from using the term “Scout,” “Scouts,” “Scouting” or “Scouts BSA” without an “inherently distinctive or distinguishing term appearing immediately before it.”

Seems like the pot calling the kettle black.  I don't know about the GSUSA national organization,  but I've heard plenty of girl scout leaders (GSUSA) refering to their group of kids as simply "scouts" and what they do as "scouting".   Generally one could tell from context which type of scouts was meant.  (And if necessary to prevent confusion, then they would say "Girl Scouts" or "Boy Scouts".)

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

I would imagine that more progressive areas will take up girls in scouting faster, and it will take a bit of time to trickle out to more traditional areas. 

We've got competing effects here.   One could alternately imagine that more progressive areas would favor Girl Scouts because of the feminism permeating the program materials.

Actually, your post just gave me an excuse to ask a question.   I was more thinking along the line of a patrol wanting to hold a patrol meeting with as little adult interference as possible (within the confines of BSA rules).    If one of the scouts has both parents registered (committee member,  ASM,  unit reserve scouter, merit badge counselor, whatever) then could the patrol hold its meeting at that scout's house on a Saturday morning or weekday evening when both parents were at home but were doing their own things elsewhere in the house?

On 11/3/2018 at 12:17 PM, qwazse said:

This forum is a great opportunity to "hear it first" here, preparing us for reactions in our other spheres.

That's a major reason why I've been here.

I'd rather learn what the sensitive topics are on scouter forum,  than learn what they are by accidentally offending people I will need to work with in order to help get a Scouts BSA troop for girls going.

On 11/3/2018 at 12:40 PM, RememberSchiff said:

As to digs to other youth groups past or present. IMO, the smores (a Girl Scout invention) at the end, was that implying girls could now have the best of both - the BSA patrol method and Girl Scout smores?

Just as they sang "Softly Falls" and "Ging Gang Goolie" as Girl Scouts, will the girls still be able to sing "On my honor" as Scouts BSA?

44 minutes ago, AVTech said:

I stepped down as Scoutmaster of my son's Troop to become the Scoutmaster of my daughter's Troop.

44 minutes ago, AVTech said:

My wife is the ASM.

This is off topic,  but you probably know the answer to this.   For the two registered YPT-trained adults, of age at least 21 years, one of which must be female (needed for any activity involving Scouts BSA girls)  --- does it matter whether these two adults are related to each other?     Can a husband and wife be the only two adults with the group?     I haven't seen any mention of this in what I've seen of BSA requirements, but my knowledge is limited.   It sure would be convenient.   I do know that some groups (such as GSUSA) require their necessary two adults to be unrelated to each other.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

The Girl Scouts wear sashes with their t-shirts.

And typically look really, really, really sloppy. 

The GSUSA gave up on a "uniform" look uniform in the early 1970s when they went mix-and-match.

Actually having a uniform is one of the things about BSA that appeals to my daughter.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

But, it's as good a pitch for GS/USA as BSA.

I suspect that many of the girls to whom this video would appeal would have some idea of what their local girl scout troops are (or are not) doing.   If they have found their local girl scout troop not to be outdoorsy enough, then this might make BSA look appealing.     Not to say that GSUSA troops couldn't do this stuff (except wearing the BSA logo clothes)  but many certainly don't.

57 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

We wanted our troop to provide more adventure than just the monthly campouts. So, we created and started pushing scouts to create and plan Crew outings. These are outings  where the scout creates a crew outside the troop program specific to the theme. Once the outing is over, the crew dissolves.

57 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

There were no age limits to most of the crew outings, so any scout could join the crew provided he physically and mentally met the minimum requirements.

How does this formation of temporary crews affect the cohesiveness of the troop's patrols?  

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Does anyone know when they took out the "more than 30 minutes from help" rule? I remember when WFA first came out, that requirement was in place as well. I know a few units complained because that 30 minute rule affected their troop meetings. 

4 hours ago, RichardB said:

"They" never had such a rule......Are you confusing this with when the H/W chart on the AHMR applies?    https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/ahmr/medical-formfaqs/   

But my Girl Scout council currently has such a rule.   Could you be thinking of a different scouting organization's rule?

Quote

"First Aid. Be prepared. Ensure the presence of a first-aid kit and volunteer with current
certification in first aid, including adult and child CPR or CPR/AED, and one who is prepared to
handle cases of abrasions, sprains, and fractures. When camping or hiking, if any part of the
activity is located 30 minutes or more from emergency medical services, ensure the presence
of a first-aider with wilderness first-aid training. See Volunteer Essentials for information about
first-aid standards and training."

On 10/20/2018 at 8:00 AM, DuctTape said:

I would add the Patrol Leaders Handbook; an edition printed prior to 1970. They are cheap on ebay, and provide concrete examples for an inexperienced PL to try.

Which edition do you recommend?  There seem to be a lot of different years' versions available cheap second hand.   What is a good one?

On 10/16/2018 at 11:55 AM, qwazse said:

I do share these criteria to scouts of both sexes tongue-in-cheek, but also to help them think about core values.

Are they outdated and sexist? What, pray tell, should be a post-modern nomad's criteria for mate selection? Beauty? Personality? Desire? Wits?

Beauty vanishes, personalities change, desire waxes and wanes, wits dull, but  ...

• If your spouse leans into the plow and secures wealth for your family and the poor in your community, you may hike and camp more and work double shifts less.
• If your spouse puts out a good meal, you may be presumed fed ... and freer to welcome the stranger to your table.

So, yes, I am having a little fun, but provoking thought at the same time.

The problems of English not disinguishing between you-singular and you-plural.   Do you read this as "if you (a hard worker) choose a spouse who is also a hard worker (and not just pretty/handsome) then you two together may camp more and work double-shifts less?   Or do you read this as "you will be able to goof off while your wife works"?

The problems of internet comumication where we cannot see our listeners' mis-understanding in their eyes,  and correct it before it really takes root.

On 10/17/2018 at 9:10 AM, WisconsinMomma said:

This sounds a little bit like how wives are chosen and treated in the backwoods of less developed countries -- a woman is chosen as a worker and treated like a slave

Maybe I've been paying too much attention to what Quazse has been saying about girl venturers (it is generally complimentary) and the positives for girls in Scouts BSA,  so I did not read this into his words.      And has he himself indicated (see next quote) that was not what he was advocating.

But I do agree that poor treatment of women in certain eras and certain locations has been a problem.

21 hours ago, qwazse said:

Oh, the presumption that my quips are only delivered to boys ...

My working assumption is that a youth will go "all-in" for their spouse. The question then boils down to what kind of person he/she should go "all-in" for? My answer is not pat. It's provoking.

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

@qwazseQuips don’t all translate to Internet forums well. 

So,   if we adults are having occasional difficulties with understanding each other within the limits of the Internet,   what about kids these days?

I find it disturbing that many elementary schoolers in my area have, for the last few years, had their own smart-phones (sometimes as hand-me-downs from parents).   What were their parents thinking?  Kids that age are not yet mature enough not to blurt out comments without thinking.   At least in person they can see if they are offending their friends, and clarify or appologize right away.   But on electronic media foolish impulsive remarks,  or even simply less-than-100% crystal clear remarks,  can linger long and can provoke negative overreactions on the parts of others.

11 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Patrol Method has been a struggle to maintain for many units for decades. Units that wanted to keep it going have done so, in spite of the hurdles.

11 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Units I see today still effectively using the Patrol Method are doing so because they fostered a PM culture over many years and continue to do so.

So I am hoping to be involved with a new girls Scouts BSA troop.    I would like to see the patrol method used, and used well, in the new troop.    Any suggestions for how to foster a Patrol Method culture in a new troop  (whether the new troops be girls,  boys,  or Martians) ?    I have already read the books Working the Patrol Method by Four Eagle Scouts and So Far, So Good! by Clarke Green

And there is the complication that a new troop is likely to be a one-patrol troop at first.

Trail To First Class?

(A guess from an ignoramus)

8 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

But, I am also a registered Girl Scout, as is, I think, my son.  Evidently it's up to the leader whether or not males can come on outings - they simply have to sign up for the additional insurance.

Your son is not a registered girl scout if he is under age 18.   (The only boys who are allowed to register are those who call themselves girls!)

But I believe it is possible (though I never learned how to do it) to sign up for extra insurance for non-registered participants.

21 hours ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

I've been reading up on this "Family Scouting" stuff.

20 hours ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

as a Girl Scout Troop they were very gung-ho about getting certified trained people since my daughter started around kindergarten and they do way more stuff than Cub Scouts even dream about. 

12 hours ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

She is very hard core.  The funny thing is (well, not so funny) that we do more activities when we go on Girl Scout trips (my son and myself also) than when we go on most Cub Scout activities.

Sounds to me like you are already doing "Family Scouting" -- just unofficially in a GSUSA context.

It also sounds like both the girls and the boy are having a good experience on these trips.   Does this mean that there is hope that some units within BSA might make a good thing out of "Family Scouting"?

7 hours ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

Yeah, I considered some of the consolidation, but it seems to me that there isn't enough to make it worthwhile.  Basically the pack meeting and the annual pack campout. 

My wife's big complaint (and mine too) is that as a Girl Scout Troop they were very gung-ho about getting certified trained people since my daughter started around kindergarten and they do way more stuff than Cub Scouts even dream about.  My wife was so annoyed when she thumbed through the Weblos book and got so excited when she saw the pictures of kids in canoes only to discover that Cub Scouts can't actually use canoes like the Girl Scouts do.  We've gotten to the point where we refer to Cub Scouts as Can't Scouts.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

It sounds like your daughter has a great (girl) scout troop.    Sounds like something to stick with.    With a core group on enthusiastic girls and adults they can stick with traditional outdoor-oriented girl scouting,  and simply ignore any of the new program materials they don't like.

Unfortunately highly active outdoor-focussed girl scout troops are uncommon in my area. 

34 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

If your children are still in separate Dens or Troops, then what schedule consolidation has happened?  Where is the convenience over just staying in BSA/GSA?

I see that there is a certain amount of consolidation, especially for kids who are close enough in age to be in cubs at the same time.  

 The kids will occasionally do things together:  both dens at the same pack meetings and whole-pack activities,  rather than the boy cub den doing pack-wide activities with the pack and the girl Brownie Troop doing service-unit-wide activites with the girl scout service unit.

The adults only need to learn one set of program materials,  one set of safety standards, do  only need one registration,  and one background check,  and somewhat overlapping trainings,  to help with more than one kid.   

(By the way, the camp director of our local Girl Scout camp,  who was a trainer of archery instructors (USA Archery),  used to complain that she could not help her sons' boy scout troop with archery unless she did more training, because she had not completed the BSA archery training.)

23 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'd see if you'd get enough families willing to buy their scouts a tent in order to make it work.

There are an overwhelming number of tents available for sale,  all different types.    A reccomendation of what to buy, that would be suitable for scouts camping with the troop, would be helpful for the families, if you decide to go this route.

44 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

One side of this discussion has required that their suppositions, predictions of the future, and personal anecdotes are to be taken as valid.  While at the same time, they have demanded empirical data from the other side and dismissed years of personal experiences as unsupportable fantasy.

19 minutes ago, shortridge said:

JoeBob, since you’re clearly talking about me I’m going to respond. Barry cited data in support of his argument that girls are oriented differently. I’m asking for his sources. That’s all. 

Even if there were studies that showed that girls were, on average, paid more attention to organizational details,  that doesn't remove the worth of the patrol method for the girls.

Firstly,  because averages are just that.  There is also a broad distribution, for both girls and boys,  of instinctive organizational skill levels.  Some girls are a lot less naturally organized than some boys.

Also patrols are not merely about learning to be organized.  They are also about learning leadership in a kid-sized setting.   They are about having the opportunity to try,  and to mess up,  and to overcome those mistakes --- all in a kid-sized setting.

I would argue that the differences between boys and girls mean that single gender patrols are the way to go --- so that the girls don't end up doing the cooking while the boys do something else.   Of course,  since the troops won't be coed,  neither will the patrols.

50 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

In the GSUSA all adults present on camping trips have to be registered members.  It has been that way for at least the 8 years my family has been involved.

We asked all the moms, at the beginning of each year, to register and do the background check so that they would be available to volunteer occasionally.   Most did.  (And some dads did also.)  No one complained about the cost.   Of couse,  if it is a long-running policy then people are used to it and it is not a surprise.   Also, the GSUSA background check only required filling out a short form so a CORI check could be done --- there was no hour-long YPT class required.

3 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

What strikes me is that you're assuming both an extreme lack of knowledge on the part of the parents

5 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I would guess that many of the parents of girls joining the program are going to be the parents of sons already in the program.

I've seen plenty of complaints that parents of boys moving up from cubs just don't understand Scouting and how it is different from cubbing.  So even if the new girls have younger brothers in cubs, it wont mean that their parents are familiar with how a Scout Troop works.    And parents of only girls, who are coming in from Girl Scouts, are going to understand even less about BSA.

Family sizes tend to be small.  A lot of prospective members will not have an older brother at all, much less one who is active in Scouts.