Treflienne

33 minutes ago, qwazse said:

including how supper gets cooked, etc ... and you can see little differences in leadership style that fell along the lines of which organization the venturer had spent his/her junior high years with.

Imagine a group of 10-12 Brownies (3rd grade) trying to decide what to cook at an upcoming after-school cookout at the local girl scout camp.   They were armed with several cookbooks of easy campfire meals.   It was a long process, and I wondered if they would ever reach a decision, but several of the girls rose to the occasion, organized the group, and eventually got them to hammer out a plan that everyone was satisfied with.  (It did have two different deserts, though.)

GSUSA does emphasize what they call "girl leadership" down to the very youngest levels.  But in practise for the very youngest ones (Daisies) it is often implemented as girls-decide-between-options-preselected-by-the-adults.  

5 minutes ago, FireStone said:

but it's just not consistent with the current BSA advancement model. We're not a proficiency program anymore, although as I understand it we were, once. But that was also back before there were so many merit badges, and the idea of proficiency testing was more feasible.

Some interesting bits from Baden-Powell's Aids to Scoutmastership, the section on "Proficiency Badge (Merit Badges)".   Of course this is badges not advancement.   And Baden-Powell founded scouting in the U.K., not the B.S.A. which itself had some significant innovations.
 

Quote

 

The Badges are merely intended as an encouragement to a boy to take up a hobby or occupation and to make some sort of progress in it; they are a sign to an outsider that he has done so; they are, not intended to signify that he is a master in the craft he is tested in . . . .

But the object of the Badge System in Scouting is also to give the Scoutmaster an instrument by which he can stimulate keenness on the part of every and any boy to take up hobbies that can be helpful in forming his character or developing his skill. . . .

Our standard for Badge earning is not the attainment of a certain level or quality of knowledge or skill, but the amount of effort the boy has put into the acquiring such knowledge or skill. . . . .

 

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

As to the handbooks promoting different leadership styles, I have seen this play out on several occasions. Venturers coming from the GS/USA are  invested in "emotion work", and they are sometimes surprised at how quickly good things can get done when they are more directive. Those coming from BSA or elsewhere, sometimes could stand to do a little "emotion work." Certainly, as I train boys in backpacking, the natural leaders need a lot of work learning how to pay attention to the needs of the patrol (e.g., load balancing, making sure everyone's had breakfast before moving out, etc ...).

I have certain seen in girl scout settings (more from handed down culture than from the handbooks directly)  the emphasis on trying to find solutions that everyone (or at least the vast majority) finds tolerable,  rather than just deciding by majority vote.    It can take much longer.   It can result in more happy kids, eventually.   A difficulty for the girls can be in recognizing when it is worth the time and effort to build consensus (perhaps by jointly figuring out a better option that previously considered) and when it is best to simply pick some option quickly.

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

So,  although I disagree with the author on several points, I liked her use handbooks instead of merit badge offerings to analyse the overall thrust of the programs.

I agree.   The handbooks (in addition to the badges, which for the older G.S. books were actually in the handbooks) gives a much fuller picture.   And the older books are a fascinating read.   I got my first old G.S. handbook when I was a kid and had tagged along with a friend (not a girl scout) and her mother for a day of exploring antique shops.   After that I kept my eyes open for them.     More recently, my daughter has asked for copies of Scouting for Boys (available in reprint) and the first american boy scout handbook (also available in reprint) and has been reading them with interest.

Comparing the current Boy Scout Handbook with the current Cadette Girls' Guide to Girl Scouting and the Cadette Journeys is similarly illuminating.   And I would reccommend doing so, to people who want to know the current differences between the programs.

On 11/17/2018 at 2:44 PM, qwazse said:

So, I found the following thesis that compares the organization's' handbooks:

And here's another sample from the conclusion (page 58)

Quote

Girl Scouts has done a superior job at meaningfully redefining its past, and I would argue being critical of it, in order to progress as the “premier leadership organization for girls”

and

Quote

If The Boy Scouts insists on continuously using the past to frame its efforts in the present, I hardly see a viable avenue for progression. Perhaps an effort should be made by this organization to be more critical of its past than what we have seen up to this point.

On 11/17/2018 at 2:44 PM, qwazse said:

So, I found the following thesis that compares the organization's' handbooks:

I was hoping for an interesting read, but that paper is just too sloppily done to take seriously.  

For example, on page 14, the paper compares BSA and WAGGGS membership numbers.  The appropriate comparisons would be BSA with GSUSA or else WOSM with WAGGGS.

And she draws comparisons from Boy Scout Handbooks and Girl Scout Handbooks,  but for the recent years she used Junior Girl Scout handbooks which correspond in age to Webelos, not Boy Scouts.

And she gets her history wrong.  On page 22 she says

Quote

When Lord Robert Baden-Powell first founded the Boys Brigade in Great Britain at the turn of the 20th century, he did so as a national call for the development of survival skills that the next generation would need (Rosenthal, 1986).

19 minutes ago, qwazse said:

That's on the Boy Scout side. Are there comparable positions on the Cadette and Ambassador side that aren't encapsulated in MBs?

Absolutely.  The badges (which girl scouts actually historically have called "proficiency badges" not "merit badges") are only part of the picture.   Currently the emphasis from GSUSA seems to be on the "Journeys" rather than the "badges" and in recent years the badges have been rather a periferal part of the national program materials.  For example the girls must do "journeys" as prerequisites for working on the Bronze, Silver, or Gold award.  No badges are required as prerequisites for these awards.

Nevertheless,  the history of the changes to the badge offerings is quite interesting.   Still I wonder how clearcut the Smithsonian's classifications are.   In older days, a sewing related badge for girls would have fallen squarely into the "running a household" category.   Today needlework tends to be more of a hobby than a household necessity.

14 minutes ago, qwazse said:

The pony-tail fits through the back of the cap. Keeps it from flying off on windy days.

That's a matter of taste.   Some girls and women can't abide those pony-tail holes. 

24 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

But be warned, scouts will tend to only wear comfortable hats that are comfortable in the woods. Campaign, and even baseball caps, don't do as well there. We especially like the military booney hats. Booney hats come in several colors and como styles. They vent for the heat, keep rain off the head, sun off the ears and have a strap for the windy days. They are indestructible and can handle many years of outdoors weather and are easy to stuff in a pack. Mine and my sons are still going strong 25 years later. 

Thanks for the recommendation.

My personal favorite hat for years has been:  https://www.sundayafternoons.com/p/lotus-hat/ (also the old version of https://www.sundayafternoons.com/p/river-guide-hat/ ).  Three-season hats (spring-fall).  Great for sun.  Decent for rain.  Strap for wind. Comfortable.  Survive trips through the washing machine.   But unfortunately those don't look particularly scout-uniform like.

More recommendations from the rest of you, of suitable hats for scouts, would be much appreciated.

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

(and girls who will cut their hair short).

Actually, for the short-haired girls, the hair covers the back of the neck.  I'm thinking of the long-haired girls --- and most the girls around here seem to wear their hair long.   It needs to be ponytailed, or better yet braided,  when camping.  Keeps it out of the fire.   Less of a brush for catching ticks.

I have been reading some of the old discussions on this scouter forum about hats, but I still have questions.

Daughter is already thinking, not only about troop activities, but also about neckerchiefs (wants troop to make their own, large and square) and hats.   And she wants a practical, useable, hat.

Do I understand correctly that the troop gets to pick which hat option to use for all scouts in their troop?

The scoutstuff.org website lists two hats under the uniform hat.

1) a baseball cap

2) the BSA campaign hat

Are these the only two choices, or can the troop pick a different hat sold by BSA?  The baseball hat seems like a poor choice as it does not keep the sun off the back of the neck.   The BSA campaign hat is very very pricey. Could the troop pick:

3) expedition hat / brimmed hat ( https://www.scoutshop.org/brimmed-hat.html )

or

4) wide brim floatable hat ( https://www.scoutshop.org/wide-brim-floatable-hat-adult.html )

Or could the troop pick a hat not sold by BSA, such as an off-brand campaign hat?   If so, does anyone recommend a good place to buy them?   I saw, in another discussion, that www.vtarmynavy.com was recommended, but that store seems to have closed.

Thanks in advance for any help.

By the way,  I think it highly desirable for the girls' troop (at least the one my daughter will be in) to have a different number from the linked boys troop.  One more signal that it isn't simply a girls patrol in a coed troop.

Of course, some linked troops might actually want to be as close to a coed troop as they can get away with --- and those troops probably want to share a troop number.

19 minutes ago, TLK said:

That would be kinda clumsy, but I guess it works.  We are all probably gonna end up calling it the "girl troop" anyway...especially the youth.

If it starts with a small number of girls as a single-patrol troop, then you could always call them by their patrol name. 

I registered as District Scouter Reserve and there was a fee.  ($33 registration + $3 insurance + (optional) $12 Boy's Life)

In "the Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts" discussion, we touched on the issue of the name "scout" helping one feel a part of the world-wide scout movement.   That leads to a question:

For you BSA folk: in your experience, how important has the international friendship aspect of scouting been? And has it been merely an abstract ideal, or has scouting provided opportunity for the scouts to interact with scouts from other nations?

Perhaps my experience was atypical, as a kid in GSUSA troops overseas. But I had opportunities to travel to other countries at attend events sponsored by the Guides in those countries, and also to stay at Olave House the (then) Girl Guide World Centre in London and meet other guides/scouts there.  And Thinking Day was a big deal when we had girls from various countries in attendance in the uniforms of their home countries.  (Thinking Day is the WAGGGS observance of Lord and Lady Baden-Powell's joint birthday, with emphasis on the international sisterhood of all girl guides/scouts.)

Living in the U.S. the international aspects of scouting have been not so close at hand, but still my Brownies exchanged post cards and letters with Brownies from around the world.

As the GSUSA has been continually modernizing itself in directions that have not appealed to me (though they do seem to appeal to many families), I had occasionally been looking into alternate youth organizations for my family, but I had been loath to give up the world scouting connection.  Of course, now, with BSA opening its programs to girls, BSA is starting to provide a second option for American girls who wish to participate in scouting.

7 hours ago, qwazse said:

these nuances of language will mean precious little

6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Scouts of the troop age can see through adults’ words and wording. What they want from adults is respect.

I'll agree that words without actions mean little.

And yet names do matter.

I'll certainly admit that names (like uniforms) matter much more to some people than to other people.

But a name, like a uniform, is a symbol of belonging.

To be a "scout" (or a "guide" which is historically a synonym for a female scout) is to feel a kinship to all the other scouts/guides around the world in the movement started by Baden-Powell.    A different name like "pioneer" or "young pioneer" would have very very different connotations.

11 minutes ago, Sniktaw said:

What's wrong with a boy thinking of himself as a boy, or a girl thinking of herself as a girl? They don't become genderless when the Scout meeting begins.

A girl was born a girl.

A girl chose to be a scout and made a solemn promise "On my honor . . ."

By calling her a scout we remind her of her oath.

4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

But, BSA has time to defer. And I honestly don't think it would cost all that much. BSA could even let GSUSA keep "scouts" exclusively. Change our name to "US Youth Patrols", it's magazine to "Youth's Life",  etc ..., and membership would be no worse.

But what about the girls that want to be "scouts"?   They might not mind being called "boy scouts" or even "girl Boy Scouts", but they want to be scouts.

1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

As a DL for a female den, I try to never use gender terms. My girls are "scouts." If I start to say, "hey girls" I quickly correct myself and call them "scouts." Using gender terms is a crutch I, as an adult leader, need to learn to overcome. No reason for either boys or girls to think of themselves - or to hear others refer them - as anything other than a scout

I sure like that practise.   But that is precisely one of the things that GSUSA asserts that BSA should not do.  GSUSA does not want BSA to call the BSA girls "SCOUTS"

From page 3 of the complaint.

Quote

Only GSUSA has the right to use the GIRL SCOUTS and SCOUTS trademarks with leadership development services for girls.

From page 11 of the document

Quote

With respect to the term SCOUTS and SCOUTING in particular, by virtue of the long history of use of the GIRL SCOUTS trademark by GSUSA, the consuming public has come to recognize SCOUTS and SCOUTING as trademarks that, like the other GS Marks, belong exclusively to GSUSA when used in connection with leadership  programs and related services for girls.

15 minutes ago, Liz said:

Maybe I'll check to see if any of the other parents have one we can borrow.

Seems likely.   I personally have three different pocket knives with three different styles of can openers.   That's not counting my family members' knives.   And I'm not even a BSA parent (yet, not till February).    It seems highly likely that you will turn up knives to borrow if you simply ask. 

1 hour ago, Setonfan said:

If you go to the facebook page “Girl Scouts are you listening?”, you will see how GSUSA leaders feel about the lawsuit.

It had been a while since I looked at the "GSUSA, Are You Listening?" page.  And I just now found there mention of an interesting document "GIRLS at the CENTER VOLUNTEER ACTION GUIDE".  Here is a link to one council's version of the guide: http://bit.ly/2MVGLbm which is four pages of do's and don'ts for Girl Scout volunteers.  

A couple of interesting ones:

Quote

Do not publicly compare Girl Scouts unfavorably to Boy Scouts (including on social media), when acting in your volunteer role.

And why might the GSUSA higher-ups be worried about Girl Scout volunteers doing this?

Also:

Quote

Do not refer to Girl Scouts as "Scouts" or "Scouting".  Do not use terms like "Scouting" or "Scouts" to refer to Girl Scouts.

This is quite a change from the Girl Scouts' past.  The foreword to the Girl Scout Handbook of 1930 starts with a quote from Baden-Powell " 'How did Scouting come to be used by girls?' That is what I have been asked.  Well, it was this way . . ."     In my personal experience I have often heard Girl Scouts addressed as and referred to as simply "scouts",  particulary in settings where there were no Boy Scouts around where there was no chance of confusion as to which type of scouts was being referenced.

3 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

This could be more of a PR thing and perhaps a way to nudge BSA toward some sort of concessions.  I don't know what exactly that would be. 

1 hour ago, carebear3895 said:

I actually think this is going to become a PR disaster for them. 

In this day in age, the less "progressive" institution will always lose. 

The lawsuit makes GSUSA look mean-spirited and lacking in confidence.  Hardly a good way to convince wavering families to stick with GSUSA and not switch to BSA which, at least around here, seems to be very friendly and welcoming to girls.

The girls who showed up at the Crystal Palace rally in 1909 called themselves "Girl Scouts".   Then Baden-Powell thought up a different name "Guides" for the girls in the UK, and persuaded his sister to head up that organization.  But the American organization for girls didn't accept the name "Guides", and instead called themselves "Girl Scouts".

This name issue goes all the way back.

14 minutes ago, ham_solo said:

Scouts USA should be the eventual name to match Scouts UK, Scouts Canada etc

But in Cananda and in the UK the WAGGGS member organization is called a varient of "guides", and those girls are not called "scouts".  In the U.S.  the WAGGGS member organization is called "Girl Scouts".  We have a quite a different situation with names in this country.

16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

most of the girls in my daughter’s school that are in GSUSA have no desire to do the outdoor program.  They sign up for the STEM, arts and crafts aspect. Sure ... glamping is of some interest but definitely not HA.  When signing up for summer camp the GSUSA camp about fashion was sold out and had a waiting list... that wasn’t the case for the more outdoor focused camps.  I’m sure they will increase their outdoor offerings to help stem losses to BSA but from what I see on the ground at our school the actual Troops and girls will focus on STEM and arts/crafts and going to museums.   Not sure about other schools.  

That matches what I have seen around here. 

8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I agree with everything you said. But, the GSUSA has competition now. 

If GSUSA changes to make the outdoors an integral part of their program,  they will probably lose a lot of girls.