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Posts posted by Treflienne

  1. In "the Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts" discussion, we touched on the issue of the name "scout" helping one feel a part of the world-wide scout movement.   That leads to a question:

    For you BSA folk: in your experience, how important has the international friendship aspect of scouting been? And has it been merely an abstract ideal, or has scouting provided opportunity for the scouts to interact with scouts from other nations?

    Perhaps my experience was atypical, as a kid in GSUSA troops overseas. But I had opportunities to travel to other countries at attend events sponsored by the Guides in those countries, and also to stay at Olave House the (then) Girl Guide World Centre in London and meet other guides/scouts there.  And Thinking Day was a big deal when we had girls from various countries in attendance in the uniforms of their home countries.  (Thinking Day is the WAGGGS observance of Lord and Lady Baden-Powell's joint birthday, with emphasis on the international sisterhood of all girl guides/scouts.)

    Living in the U.S. the international aspects of scouting have been not so close at hand, but still my Brownies exchanged post cards and letters with Brownies from around the world.

    As the GSUSA has been continually modernizing itself in directions that have not appealed to me (though they do seem to appeal to many families), I had occasionally been looking into alternate youth organizations for my family, but I had been loath to give up the world scouting connection.  Of course, now, with BSA opening its programs to girls, BSA is starting to provide a second option for American girls who wish to participate in scouting.

  2. 7 hours ago, qwazse said:

    these nuances of language will mean precious little


    6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

    Scouts of the troop age can see through adults’ words and wording. What they want from adults is respect.

    I'll agree that words without actions mean little.

    And yet names do matter.

    I'll certainly admit that names (like uniforms) matter much more to some people than to other people.

    But a name, like a uniform, is a symbol of belonging.

    To be a "scout" (or a "guide" which is historically a synonym for a female scout) is to feel a kinship to all the other scouts/guides around the world in the movement started by Baden-Powell.    A different name like "pioneer" or "young pioneer" would have very very different connotations.


    • Like 1

  3. 11 minutes ago, Sniktaw said:

    What's wrong with a boy thinking of himself as a boy, or a girl thinking of herself as a girl? They don't become genderless when the Scout meeting begins.

    A girl was born a girl.

    A girl chose to be a scout and made a solemn promise "On my honor . . ."

    By calling her a scout we remind her of her oath.

    • Like 1

  4. 4 minutes ago, qwazse said:

    But, BSA has time to defer. And I honestly don't think it would cost all that much. BSA could even let GSUSA keep "scouts" exclusively. Change our name to "US Youth Patrols", it's magazine to "Youth's Life",  etc ..., and membership would be no worse.

    But what about the girls that want to be "scouts"?   They might not mind being called "boy scouts" or even "girl Boy Scouts", but they want to be scouts.


  5. 1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

    As a DL for a female den, I try to never use gender terms. My girls are "scouts." If I start to say, "hey girls" I quickly correct myself and call them "scouts." Using gender terms is a crutch I, as an adult leader, need to learn to overcome. No reason for either boys or girls to think of themselves - or to hear others refer them - as anything other than a scout

    I sure like that practise.   But that is precisely one of the things that GSUSA asserts that BSA should not do.  GSUSA does not want BSA to call the BSA girls "SCOUTS"

    From page 3 of the complaint.


    Only GSUSA has the right to use the GIRL SCOUTS and SCOUTS trademarks with leadership development services for girls.

    From page 11 of the document


    With respect to the term SCOUTS and SCOUTING in particular, by virtue of the long history of use of the GIRL SCOUTS trademark by GSUSA, the consuming public has come to recognize SCOUTS and SCOUTING as trademarks that, like the other GS Marks, belong exclusively to GSUSA when used in connection with leadership  programs and related services for girls.


  6. 15 minutes ago, Liz said:

    Maybe I'll check to see if any of the other parents have one we can borrow.

    Seems likely.   I personally have three different pocket knives with three different styles of can openers.   That's not counting my family members' knives.   And I'm not even a BSA parent (yet, not till February).    It seems highly likely that you will turn up knives to borrow if you simply ask. 

  7. 1 hour ago, Setonfan said:

    If you go to the facebook page “Girl Scouts are you listening?”, you will see how GSUSA leaders feel about the lawsuit.

    It had been a while since I looked at the "GSUSA, Are You Listening?" page.  And I just now found there mention of an interesting document "GIRLS at the CENTER VOLUNTEER ACTION GUIDE".  Here is a link to one council's version of the guide: http://bit.ly/2MVGLbm which is four pages of do's and don'ts for Girl Scout volunteers.  

    A couple of interesting ones:


    Do not publicly compare Girl Scouts unfavorably to Boy Scouts (including on social media), when acting in your volunteer role.

    And why might the GSUSA higher-ups be worried about Girl Scout volunteers doing this?



    Do not refer to Girl Scouts as "Scouts" or "Scouting".  Do not use terms like "Scouting" or "Scouts" to refer to Girl Scouts.

    This is quite a change from the Girl Scouts' past.  The foreword to the Girl Scout Handbook of 1930 starts with a quote from Baden-Powell " 'How did Scouting come to be used by girls?' That is what I have been asked.  Well, it was this way . . ."     In my personal experience I have often heard Girl Scouts addressed as and referred to as simply "scouts",  particulary in settings where there were no Boy Scouts around where there was no chance of confusion as to which type of scouts was being referenced.



  8. 3 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

    This could be more of a PR thing and perhaps a way to nudge BSA toward some sort of concessions.  I don't know what exactly that would be. 


    1 hour ago, carebear3895 said:

    I actually think this is going to become a PR disaster for them. 

    In this day in age, the less "progressive" institution will always lose. 

    The lawsuit makes GSUSA look mean-spirited and lacking in confidence.  Hardly a good way to convince wavering families to stick with GSUSA and not switch to BSA which, at least around here, seems to be very friendly and welcoming to girls.

  9. The girls who showed up at the Crystal Palace rally in 1909 called themselves "Girl Scouts".   Then Baden-Powell thought up a different name "Guides" for the girls in the UK, and persuaded his sister to head up that organization.  But the American organization for girls didn't accept the name "Guides", and instead called themselves "Girl Scouts".

    This name issue goes all the way back.

  10. 14 minutes ago, ham_solo said:

    Scouts USA should be the eventual name to match Scouts UK, Scouts Canada etc

    But in Cananda and in the UK the WAGGGS member organization is called a varient of "guides", and those girls are not called "scouts".  In the U.S.  the WAGGGS member organization is called "Girl Scouts".  We have a quite a different situation with names in this country.

  11. 16 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    most of the girls in my daughter’s school that are in GSUSA have no desire to do the outdoor program.  They sign up for the STEM, arts and crafts aspect. Sure ... glamping is of some interest but definitely not HA.  When signing up for summer camp the GSUSA camp about fashion was sold out and had a waiting list... that wasn’t the case for the more outdoor focused camps.  I’m sure they will increase their outdoor offerings to help stem losses to BSA but from what I see on the ground at our school the actual Troops and girls will focus on STEM and arts/crafts and going to museums.   Not sure about other schools.  

    That matches what I have seen around here. 

    8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

    I agree with everything you said. But, the GSUSA has competition now. 

    If GSUSA changes to make the outdoors an integral part of their program,  they will probably lose a lot of girls.

  12. 4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    a lot of language from GSUSA about the power of G.I.R.L.s

    While the "G.I.R.L." advertising push is relatively new,  the girls-can-do-anything-including-in-fields-previously-offlimits-to-females emphasis of GSUSA has been around for a long time  -- I can remember it going back to at least the 1980's.  The ironic thing now is that their message now seems to be that it is great for girls to aspire to anything they desire, except joining the Boy Scouts.  

    • Sad 2

  13. 46 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    I wouldn’t be shocked if BSA/GSUSA settle and BSA helps fund a name change of GSUSA to Girl Guides USA.

    I would be utterly shocked if GSUSA were willing to change their name to Girl Guides.   The name "Girl Guides" or "Guides" has, in my experience, very very little name recognition in the U.S.    Our young Girl Scouts always seem surprised to learn that Girl Scouts in other countries are called "Guides".    If GSUSA is worried about confusion over names with both GSUSA and BSA applying the word "scouts" to girls in this country,   then they would be even more concerned about the name-recognition suicide that would be the result of changing their name to "Guides".

    • Upvote 2

  14. 7 hours ago, Setonfan said:

    Do we really think parents are truly confused that both organizations exist?


    1 hour ago, awanatech said:

    Yes, people are confused that both organizations exist and are separate.  I have been surprised at the number of people who truly did not know that the 2 organizations were not the same.  And even more so to find out that they are not finally joining into one organization. 

    And we actually have a really simple situation with scouting in this country.  Compare it with France.  According to wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_and_Guiding_in_France )


    The Scout movement in France consists of about 80 different associations and federations with about 180,000 Scouts and Girl Guides.


  15. The article says


    The Girl Scouts seek a court order blocking the Boy Scouts from using the term “Scout,” “Scouts,” “Scouting” or “Scouts BSA” without an “inherently distinctive or distinguishing term appearing immediately before it.”

    Seems like the pot calling the kettle black.  I don't know about the GSUSA national organization,  but I've heard plenty of girl scout leaders (GSUSA) refering to their group of kids as simply "scouts" and what they do as "scouting".   Generally one could tell from context which type of scouts was meant.  (And if necessary to prevent confusion, then they would say "Girl Scouts" or "Boy Scouts".)


  16. Actually, your post just gave me an excuse to ask a question.   I was more thinking along the line of a patrol wanting to hold a patrol meeting with as little adult interference as possible (within the confines of BSA rules).    If one of the scouts has both parents registered (committee member,  ASM,  unit reserve scouter, merit badge counselor, whatever) then could the patrol hold its meeting at that scout's house on a Saturday morning or weekday evening when both parents were at home but were doing their own things elsewhere in the house?

    • Upvote 1

  17. On 11/3/2018 at 12:17 PM, qwazse said:

    This forum is a great opportunity to "hear it first" here, preparing us for reactions in our other spheres.

    That's a major reason why I've been here.

    I'd rather learn what the sensitive topics are on scouter forum,  than learn what they are by accidentally offending people I will need to work with in order to help get a Scouts BSA troop for girls going.

  18. On 11/3/2018 at 12:40 PM, RememberSchiff said:

    As to digs to other youth groups past or present. IMO, the smores (a Girl Scout invention) at the end, was that implying girls could now have the best of both - the BSA patrol method and Girl Scout smores?

    Just as they sang "Softly Falls" and "Ging Gang Goolie" as Girl Scouts, will the girls still be able to sing "On my honor" as Scouts BSA?

    • Haha 1

  19. 44 minutes ago, AVTech said:

    I stepped down as Scoutmaster of my son's Troop to become the Scoutmaster of my daughter's Troop.


    44 minutes ago, AVTech said:

    My wife is the ASM.

    This is off topic,  but you probably know the answer to this.   For the two registered YPT-trained adults, of age at least 21 years, one of which must be female (needed for any activity involving Scouts BSA girls)  --- does it matter whether these two adults are related to each other?     Can a husband and wife be the only two adults with the group?     I haven't seen any mention of this in what I've seen of BSA requirements, but my knowledge is limited.   It sure would be convenient.   I do know that some groups (such as GSUSA) require their necessary two adults to be unrelated to each other.


  20. 1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

    The Girl Scouts wear sashes with their t-shirts.

    And typically look really, really, really sloppy. 

    The GSUSA gave up on a "uniform" look uniform in the early 1970s when they went mix-and-match.

    Actually having a uniform is one of the things about BSA that appeals to my daughter.

    • Like 2
    • Upvote 1

  21. 3 hours ago, qwazse said:

    But, it's as good a pitch for GS/USA as BSA.

    I suspect that many of the girls to whom this video would appeal would have some idea of what their local girl scout troops are (or are not) doing.   If they have found their local girl scout troop not to be outdoorsy enough, then this might make BSA look appealing.     Not to say that GSUSA troops couldn't do this stuff (except wearing the BSA logo clothes)  but many certainly don't.

    • Like 1

  22. 57 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

    We wanted our troop to provide more adventure than just the monthly campouts. So, we created and started pushing scouts to create and plan Crew outings. These are outings  where the scout creates a crew outside the troop program specific to the theme. Once the outing is over, the crew dissolves.


    57 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

    There were no age limits to most of the crew outings, so any scout could join the crew provided he physically and mentally met the minimum requirements.

    How does this formation of temporary crews affect the cohesiveness of the troop's patrols?  

  23. 4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    Does anyone know when they took out the "more than 30 minutes from help" rule? I remember when WFA first came out, that requirement was in place as well. I know a few units complained because that 30 minute rule affected their troop meetings. 


    4 hours ago, RichardB said:

    "They" never had such a rule......Are you confusing this with when the H/W chart on the AHMR applies?    https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/ahmr/medical-formfaqs/   

    But my Girl Scout council currently has such a rule.   Could you be thinking of a different scouting organization's rule?


    "First Aid. Be prepared. Ensure the presence of a first-aid kit and volunteer with current
    certification in first aid, including adult and child CPR or CPR/AED, and one who is prepared to
    handle cases of abrasions, sprains, and fractures. When camping or hiking, if any part of the
    activity is located 30 minutes or more from emergency medical services, ensure the presence
    of a first-aider with wilderness first-aid training. See Volunteer Essentials for information about
    first-aid standards and training."


  24. On 10/20/2018 at 8:00 AM, DuctTape said:

    I would add the Patrol Leaders Handbook; an edition printed prior to 1970. They are cheap on ebay, and provide concrete examples for an inexperienced PL to try.

    Which edition do you recommend?  There seem to be a lot of different years' versions available cheap second hand.   What is a good one?

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