Jameson76

29 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

Nothing would stop them if they wanted Eagle to mean different things, but I think they want Eagle to only mean one thing.  To date I have seen nothing from National that suggests otherwise, 

But, as the day is not over, one can never tell with BSA National.  They do seem to sort of do what they want.  In this case maybe, just maybe, they will do a survey, then based on the unpublished results of the survey (questions and/or answers) make a proclamation that all the work done prior to being officially allowed in the scouts can in fact be counted so as to clear the road.  This will be done because XX% of those surveyed, even though they are not in the program, feel that a program such as the Boy Scouts of America (NOTE - Current name and subject to change based on survey results) should allow exceptions for the heretofore excluded class known as girls.  Also they might join a group that undertook such an action

While sounding far fetched right now, check back in 12 months

40 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

OK so we are all living on the same planet. I feel better....I am not crazy. Yes we are experiencing that same blurring of the lines.

My son mentioned one cause in our Troop. We used to have a 15 passenger van we shared with our Troop. Could pull a small trailer with the two required adults and 13 boys which sufficed for some trips. 

Then we had to stop using the van and the church and the troop did not have the funds to replace it so we needed dads (and a few moms) for transport. (we do reimburse for gas and since many are trucks it increased each campers cost more than what you thought) to help transport gear and boys. Most of the dads had trucks than minivans and then we had a lot more vehicles and parents at the campsite. And some of these dads liked to camp like they did on their own...not exactly 'car camping' but more like 'truck camping'...a bit gear heavy.

(I never saw so many fit guys 20 years younger than me that insisted that they HAD to have a cot because sleeping on the ground was too hard...which led to bigger tents to hold the cot...which led to the trucks being close to the campsite and they didn't want to carry stuff far. I mean I even try to backpack my gear in even if it is just from parking lot to campsite mostly because I am too lazy to make another trip)

Some of these dads dropped out after a couple trips because their kind of camping was enhanced by the BSA verboten beer. And a few mom's stepped in to help out and you know it is kind of a long round trip to not stay the night and if they are staying the night they should bring little sister (and sometimes the dog).

And voila! Family Camping. While the parents-not really scouters are camping in the 'adult' area/campsite it GREATLY impacts the experience for the Boys and Scouters. I spend all my time explaining while we are ignoring the boys. The boys and fellow scouter personalities  are enough work, throwing in a bunch of parents with time on their hands is a bit much. 

Maybe we are just waaay old school, but I can (and have seen) how what you describe can happen.  We are not that kind of troop.

We do have to engage drivers.  While we there is reimbursement, in the last 10 years nobody has asked for it.  Note we have 30 - 40 scouts attend outings, so 8 - 10 cars each trip.  Usually mostly leaders but a few spare ones for transport.  Mostly we recommend deducting the mileage.  We do have moms drive and some non camping dads.  Clear emphasis is to get them unloaded and back on their way asap.  That being said we typically can camp within 2 hours or less of drive from CO parking lot.  There are the longer summer camps and (upcoming) winter trips

Expectation is all vehicles out of camp area for the weekend.  Even if only 50 yards in a parking area, get the cars out of camp.  Only exception is the vehicle with the trailer.  No dogs / beer / siblings / etc.  If we leaders can setup where they cannot see the scouts, que beuno.  We were doing a wide game one campout.  The scouts were maybe 1/3 mile way down the road, clearly out of site and sound.  We packed up on Sunday morning and then debated should we just leave as the ride back would be quieter.  We conceded to go get the troop.  Drove around the bend, camp was down, gear was lined up, and scouts were out policing up the field of play.  Love it when a plan comes together.

1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:

Hard to know with her father. He may be quoted out of context, frustrated with the response or lack of response from National,  being a Dad, or being a jerk.

 

He is an NYC lawyer, I feel you have answered your question

8 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

As far as I can tell the request has been respectful and courteous.  Different people have different styles, some are rule followers, and some are change agents.  It's all OK.   My opinion would change if the girl or her family starts trashing the BSA and behaves poorly, but I don't think anything is wrong with a polite request either.

Well...except for Daddy Ireland

Her father, corporate attorney Gary Ireland, slammed the BSA for this.

“It is outrageous and embarrassing that the Scouts will ban local young women from participating, particularly as we are the host country,” he said. “Scouts need to be a certain age and rank to attend a Jamboree. With the Boy Scouts allowing girls into the program very soon, it is unclear why they continue to refuse admission to Sydney.”

As has been noted there are a myriad or ways for her to attend the World Jamboree.  But that is just the straw man argument

It is an interesting document.  I have worked with it with son who earned Eagle (my word that was an adventure in and of itself) and with numerous scouts in the troop.  Yes it is repetitive, but it is really several forms, rolled into 1. 

- What are you thinking about doing?

- What is your plan for doing that?

- What did you do?

Could it be a simpler format, possibly.  At a high level it does give some consistency to presentation so each Eagle candidate is not reinventing the wheel.  Even in it's current state the scout can be brief or be wordy.  Working with 1 scout he was hung up on writing up what he did, yet there were a lot of pictures from the project.  In the end he had 5 or 6 pages of pictures with captions, worked for him.  Another scout literally did a 500 word theme about the project with few photos.

There are some clear formats for the signatures and who does need to sign the approval and project plan, so that is mapped out.

2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

So does that mean transgender girls go in which Cub den?  

Pandora's Box is opened, have fun with that.

In theory they would go into the Den of the gender that they self identify as.  (not sure I got all my pronouns correct, but it is what it is).  To your pandora's box reference, one would assume if a biological female self identified as a male, they could join a current troop right now.  No doubt that is currently happening somewhere even as we discuss this

4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I was speaking to a parent the other day about school stuff and raising kids, and teens, etc. etc. and I asked, you have the two boys and your oldest is a daughter, right?  She said -- actually my oldest is nonbinary, so we use different pronouns. 

 

It is in fact a brave new world.  You know, not to threadjack here, I do find it interesting that for the most part youth under the age of 16 cannot vote, get credit, drive by themselves, fly unattended, join the military, get married, decide on most medical procedures, own guns, enter into contracts, in some places wander about by themselves, decide if they want to go to school, or do a myriad of things that those 18 and over can freely do.  The reasons usually given center on maturity, responsibility, experience, knowledge, etc.  However, if a 10 year old determines they do not want to be their biological sex, but are really "something else", hey no issue, you go right ahead and enjoy this potentially life changing impacting decision. 

4 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

If there is any question about BSA’s financial status I think this answers it.  The combination of cutting a pension benefit, huge increase in annual membership fee and  admitting girls seems to point to a cash concern.  I think the 2017 annual report will be an interesting read (2016 looked like a disaster).   I expect massive council consolidation (similar to Michigan) as the cost cutting continues.   I hope BSA finds a way to financial health soon.

I’m impressed with my DE and the amount of time he works.  Sad to see this benefit go away.

 

Well....when you spend heewge sums of cash on the giant white elephant know as Summit, eventually the poor decisions will come back to haunt you.  Literally the National BSA has mortgaged it's future on SBR.  Not sure what tea leaves were read that there was massive unfulfilled desire for justifying the development.  Curious what attendance figures would be needed to even break even on the debt service.

The real amount spent was likely north of $500MM to $750MM (that's cash american).  Also there is a large bond payment of hundreds of millions looming out there in the next several years.  Couple that with steep rises in liability insurance, untold minions on the BSA National (not to be confused with the local councils) payroll and it is a recipe for disaster.  

To say the 2016 annual report looked like a disaster is an understatement.  You really had to read all the way to the details to get the full story.

But hey, there are girls entering the program, so bingo, new revenue stream and everything will work out...no need to address the real issues.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

What in the scouter-verse is going to take more than 12 monts?

Its the same program. Either a CO will have put in for the charter or not. BSA had better make this work with everyone's current cycle of rechartering, or they will lose scouters over the wasted time.

I too wondered.  Run a quick word search on the book...change He to They and let's move on. 

That being said, maybe there are more tweaks to put in so as to embrace the new "Family" emphasis.  I can see the shocked faces, but maybe our CSE and crowd have not fully disclosed all the coming changes

16 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I also was not aware that my council had a "Vice President for Family Scouting."  Which is more evidence that the BSA is NOT de-emphasizing the term "family scouting," by which they mean only the sons-and-daughters part of the family.  They don't seem to understand what "family" means in normal, non-jargonized English.

Vice President for Family Scouting - Those oranges are not slicing themselves and the participation ranks will not award themselves...somebody has to take the lead

The emphasis on "Family" which appears to be the new buzzword for success (articles in Scouting magazine and Boys Life) is what will no doubt cause much confusion and derision in the next 24 months.  There is no real definition on what it means and if you question what it means one may be accused of not living up to the Scout Oath and Law

Family Pack Model???  Oh BOY.  I cannot wait for the rollout of the Family Troop Model...

On 1/1/2018 at 9:59 AM, NJCubScouter said:

And can anyone tell what that male Scouter (who has red loops, not blue) is presenting her with? To me it looks like a knot patch is either attached to or pictured on that piece of paper.

 

Hard to tell, angle is not good.  Also blinded by glare from the rows and rows of knots he is wearing, the Silver Beaver award and the Woodbadge beads

We have used a couple, typically have a few around.  We are 100 +/- so there is the bench strength.  Got some active scouts, they may be responsible and good leaders but did not want to be SPL, we put them in the JASM position to sort of be a backstop to the SPL.  Good to have extra set of eyes and assist the SPL and various PL's.  

Sometimes if leaders see something, working through a JASM to the SPL is more subtle.

48 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

This could be an excellent discussion for Sustainability MB which unfortunately is a bit of a snoozer.

3 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

IMHO, Sustainability MB takes the bad parts of the Environmental Science merit Badge and expands on them.........  I saw no reason to create it, should just have added a bit to Enviro Science.

Don't worry...the new families coming into scouting will LOVE the Sustainability MB.  Really dovetails into so many agendas

Side note, under the Stuff section, they mention a DVD, wonder how many scouts will need to have a history lesson in what exactly a DVD is

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

P.S. Coyote is just being a coyote.

 

We have several park units along a river in our area, the coyotes seem to really like the environment.  Little coyote condos abound.  I see them occasionally wandering about just out being coyotes.  You can sometimes hear them howl (yapping??) in the woods.  

These are not the thin western coyotes, these guys seem to be the large cat fed ones.  I see the "missing" Fluffy posters and sadly realize that the cat out and about who is missing, likely not coming back.  Several of our guys have written about coyotes for Mammal study MB.

18 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

 "In actuality, you'll have few brave pioneering girls join up at first, but most won't want to deal with the lukewarm reception they will receive in most troops.  They will wait it out and miss an opportunity. The ones that join will have some support and much opposition. They will be encouraged and they will be discouraged. They will be made to feel equal and made to feel inferior. Welcome to the same journey of your adult female leaders in scouting. Think about that."

I thought there has been no decision announced about co-ed troops.  I confess freely not have focused on this business as BSA still seems to be working out what they will do with, for, or to the program.

"IMHO Current WB is a problem because it is now a management course and not a leadership course.  As  someone stated the pre-WB21C courses were different than today's course. Back then there were 2 to 3 different WB courses ( Boy Scout, Cub Scout, and briefly an Explorer courses). Not only did you have to complete specific basic training for the course, you also had to have 2 years tenure in the program was for. Only way to waive that was the 18 and 19 year olds who went straight from Scout to Scouter. Now WB is a one size fits all management course. And from everything I hear and read, including the syllabi for the different courses, the new course is a shadow of the original courses."

When WBII replaced WB I circa 1972, there was the introduction of leadership skills into the syllabus and a sharp reduction in the former 100% focus on Scoutcraft through First Class.   The first version of "It's All Wood Badge's Fault" was that the introduction of leadership skills was the Devil destroying Boy Scouting.  Ask "Kudu."

WB21 (or WBIII) in 2001 introduced new leadership skills and presented some of the old ones with new language.  Since private enterprise had seen the virtue of leadership vs. management/bosses in the 1990s, the same sorts of training were being given to management employees of companies.  I received the ten-day version of Situational Leadership in connection with my employment in 1995, an accurate version of Stages of Team Development and all.  So WB21 was denounced as "management training."  I note that Karl Marx supported literacy and opposed malaria.

Interestingly, the Army and Marines, at least, are teaching the same stuff.  "Be, Know, Do," for example, seems to appeared first in that context and only later in Wood Badge and NYLT.  See Department of the Army, U.S. Army, FM-22-100  (08/99).

The one size fits all critique is fair, although Cub leaders complained to me pre-2001 that there were so very few Cub WB slots, unlike in Canada and the UK where there was a single WB program for all Scouting programs.  In 1989, my council was allocated one slot in Cub Wood Badge, and that did not go to a lady from my district.  The notion that Scout side adults should know something about Cubbing  also seems prudent given the common contempt of many Scouters for Cubbing..

Even worse than one size fits all, training, Scouters with no training are allowed to take WB to "Fill the Course."  I see this more as a matter of BSA indifference to program quality -- training being the traditional way to drive quality unit program.   Told that some Scouters found some training less than wonderful, one Scout executive told me the solution was "less training."  Apply that 'logic" to complaints about meals in the camp dining hall.

The quality of a given course depends on he quality of the staff, inclusive of the leaders of that staff.  That was as true in 1959 and 1984 as it is today.  The-one-size fits-all denunciation of all WB since 1971 or since 2001 is fairly described as simple prejudice, which is or is not accurate as the facts in each case dictate.

 

 

 

I have many friends in scouting that have definitely "drunk the kool aid" of WB.  To them, God Bless them, it is the end all be all for scout leaders.  Critters, totems, walking sticks, coffee mugs, council strips etc etc.  Never mind your years of actual experience working in a unit, to really be a Scout leader need to be WB trained and then do district and council stuff, the troop work is soooo last year.

If I run in to them with my troop I always take the time to have some of my scouts come over, I introduce them to some actual scouts, remind them that at the end of the day, this is why we are involved as adult leaders...an actual scout at an actual outdoor function, doing actual scouting stuff.

Often sarcasm and cutting edge humor is lost on the WB nation.  Could be my cracks about the pink hankies and kilts.....

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

Sadly this is something I saw still being done in the late 1990s. One of the reasons I quit as a pro, I refused to do it. When I left, my district "lost" a large portion of it's members.  Sometimes I wish I would have waited to quit. We got a new SE and he cleaned house.

Still occurring in the 2004 and 2005.  Especially with units designed to served underprivileged youth. 

From a 2005 article on the FBI investigations - "In Dallas, former council employees say the Scout count was inflated 20 to 30 percent. In Birmingham, some believe the numbers were hyped 30 to 40 percent. In Atlanta, a local civil rights leader accuses the Boy Scouts of inflating their inner city membership by thousands"

10 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

One way they might have managed it is to continue to re-register Scouts who have quit the troop, but are still under 18, with the troop or CO paying the registration fees.  I have heard of people doing that for one year, but not three.  And there are other ways to do it, which are less "trustworthy."  As long as the registration fees are coming in, most councils don't really care very much.

 

That is a way, maybe the COR went full Chicago and is registering scouts with names from the local graveyard (if that reference is lost try to research BSA membership scandals during the Boy Power era of the 70's).  If that has been ongoing then maybe Cubber has more issues to review.  This seems like a CO and a COR sort of hanging on to a unit "hoping" it will start up again.  It is hard work to keep a unit active, keep the scouts engaged, keep the troop viable.

Every troop has scouts leaving for a variety of reasons; friends have left, girlfriends, sports, academics, cars, etc etc.  As we tell our youth leadership, every outing and meeting is recruiting.  You have to keep the new scouts (and really all scouts) engaged and active, otherwise there is not next group of scouts for the troop.

2 minutes ago, Cubber said:

I didn't know that. I wonder how he managed that. Boys can be registered in more than one troop, right? Does that count toward the five?

They can be registered in more than one UNIT, like a Boy Scout can be also registered as a Venture and or Explorer, and vice versa.  Not multiple troops.  I think a youth can (could) be registered in multiple explorer posts, especially with the career interest ones.  Back in the day I had a youth that was in my troop, then in my High Adventure post, and also he was active with the local police explorer post.  One fee I believe.

58 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

THEY. STILL. DO. NOT. GET. IT!

.......

Why does everything have to be about advancement?

 

Exactly.  We tell our Scouts (and parents) none of our outings are advancement focused.  That being said, there is always an opportunity for advancement, it's just the scout must initiate that advancement.  We are a large troop so there is usually enough leaders on the outings for many key items.  Also we have Life scouts and above sign off on any advancements for Tenderfoot - First Class.  No adult leaders sign off, we participate in some (present yourself to a leader packed etc). Yes, the young maybe 11 year old has to go and have a conversation with an older scout about what they have completed...scary thought isn't it

3 minutes ago, Cubber said:

There were two boys only for at least three years, no committee. No one really to stay. Parents of the crossing-over Webelos are going to be expected to fill those positions. So you can imagine this one the expressed parent concerns.

They had to have had some paper scouts, you need to have a minimum of five paid youth

51 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I agree with Hawkwin.  I sympathize with Ms. Ireland, and since girls will be able to earn Eagle in the near future, I wish she could have the chance as well.  But in all fairness, she can't.  They don't even have the 11-17 girls' program set up yet, and I can see why it will take the 18 months or so it is going to take to set it up.  As we discussed with the new rules on Eagle palms, there is always going to be the "last person" who either had to follow the old rules or isn't eligible at all.  Unfortunately, Ms. Ireland is that "last person," or one of them.  I think BSA needs to hold the line on this one.

There are often rule changes, apparently more now than ever...but I digress

Big requirement changes that took affect 1/1/1974.  Switched from 21 to 24 merit badges, they implemented the god awful belt loop skill awards, changed some merit badges that were required to not required and vice versa.  Hard deadline for getting ranks and specifically Eagle under the "old" requirements was 12/31/1973.  No exceptions, that was the deal.  Either you hustled up (and many did note the major bump in Eagle awards in 73 and 74) or you achieved under the then new requirements.

If National bends to this one special request (oh I do hope there is an on-line petition or maybe a twitter # tag) then what happens when there are others.  Specifically what happens to a girl who may be 16 in 2019, but alas, no girl troops in her area, so she was not able to get registered in time, do we allow extended dates or compress the service requirements?

7 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

If they bend the rules to accommodate the first girl there is going to be a lot of screaming and yelling from our Troop's Scouts and Scout parents about how we and BSA have been making THEM jump through all these hoops without exception. How will they react? I think a few may quit in discuss but more likely adults will relent and grease the skids for those boys remaining. She may have been doing the same things but she was not a legal scout, sorry. My son#2 just aged out and wants to continue being a Boy Scout, not an adult leader, not a venturer, but the rules say 18 and out. 

Awarding this girl an Eagle is also not fair to the families who wanted girls to become Eagles but were waiting for the doors to finally open.

If they bend the rules for her, then why not change the whole 18 years old and out (seems arbitrary...right?).  Maybe make retro Eagles for those that never attained the rank.   I mean maybe the young man (or woman) could not find a troop that fit their needs.  So let's make an exception.  Maybe they were ADHD and could not effectively track the 12 weeks of chores so they did not complete Family Life...so let's make an exception.  They were really busy and never were able to get to a city council meeting so they never got Cit in the Community back in the day, so let's make an exception.  Etc Etc Etc

44 minutes ago, Stosh said:

And this is the classic example of why this whole thing isn't working.  This girl doesn't want to be a Scout, she wants to be an Eagle, and the parent's agenda is solely focused on THEIR child getting something and have no interest in what's best for anyone else.  Game on! (and there's no such thing as a win-win in any game.)

This girl doesn't want to be a Scout, she wants to be an Eagle

YEP

1 hour ago, Col. Flagg said:

Right, $33. Not sure why I had $34 in my head.

 

You are just trying to be helpful, the Great Summit Bechtel Reserve Resort and Amusement Park is not gonna pay for itself....

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Like a participation trophy? maybe?

One can only hope.  It will need to be presented and documented NO later than Fall of their Senior year of High School so it can be included on the college apps, spring of Junior year if they are applying early.