Jameson76

8 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

The BSA has now made a powerful statement - that girls learn just the same as boys, and so they should get to enjoy the same program, which should be made to teach both genders the same. The Church firmly stands by the belief that boys and girls, and men and women, are inherently different from each other, that gender is an eternal part of our divine nature, and that men and women have different needs and learn in different way in order to best fulfil their roles in the family. The Boy Scouts of America has now effectively moved away from this belief which for over a century it fought to protect, and as such, it no longer aligns with what we believe. 

Many of us who have worked with BSA for now these many years have the same feelings.  If BSA had said..hey we want to form an outdoor focused program that services girls, built on the framework of the current BSA program with the same requirements...I would have been more supportive

What we get is "Scout Me In"...Linked troops, single gender dens, and the fervent hope that these unnamed and unidentified district and council resources will somehow be able to form all these new units and implement this new dynamic change

Oh... and pay for the sins of the past with increased membership fees to support the great white elephant that is Summit

1 hour ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I will miss @The Latin Scot he had a sense of humor, loved scouting, and was a voice of common sense.

You could see this coming a looong way off still a bit of a shock. I can understand their dilemma. I am active in an international religious organization and the very conservative (and growing) members in Africa, South East Asia, and South America are much opposed to  the social policies proposed to appeal to North Americans. You go where the growth is.

But I too am sad that a story rich in Scout history is ending.😢

 

Ahh - Open Hearts Open Minds Open Doors...lifelong member of the same group (I think).

Not to be to far off topic but I read the recent Bishops decision for annual conference and am really not sure what the plan forward is

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

As we were told, the BSA National Executive Board voted unaminously to approve last years membership change. Since only a quorum is needed, did LDS members abstain from attending or attend and vote in favor or...?

11 minutes ago, Sablanck said:

Girls are already involved in Boy Scouts.  My son has been to summer camp 4 times and has a number of Venturing girls teach his merit badges.  Is there still a camp somewhere that has no girls on the property? 

To be fair, there is a difference with girls being instructors (staff) at camp as opposed to being campers.  They are in fact council employees.  As such they are likely trained on YPT and also other workplace harassment classes.   For most camps these are older high school or college age girls.  Additionally at camps with females staffers they are typically provided housing separate from male staff (sleeping and shower arrangements).   

Some camps have coed Venture groups come but that is more commonly a minimal percentage of the camp, and they are doing a high adventure path (maybe off camp) or some non merit badge class type function on camp (COPE or similar)

Basic summer camp will be a challenge for many council camps.  Troop often share sites, the restrooms may be more communal, and other opportunities will be presented that will need to be overcome.  

As information - Eagle Scouts are getting older

In 1949, the average age of Eagle Scouts was 14.6 years.

In 2016, that number was 17.35 years old. (That’s 17 years, 127.75 days.)

That average Eagle Scout age has been pretty consistent in recent years. Indeed, the change from 2015 to 2016 was just 0.01 years — or 3.65 days.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/03/03/what-was-the-average-age-of-2016-eagle-scouts/

12 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I could see this more of an issue for girls turning 18 in 2020.  Outside of those, I agree that there shouldn’t be a rush.  

That will be the cue for the gnashing of teeth and cry for exceptions to the 18 year barrier as it is patriarchal and speaks of a male imposed barrier (I kid).  There will be concerns when the older girls want to join and there are no troops OR the troops are new and no resources / institutional knowledge to speed them along.  Then we will have discussions and surveys about a coed option

19 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Anything with $55 for the optional breakfasts are too pricey for this Scouter. I am sure all comments will be well managed.

$55 breakfast?  Assuming not the same bill of fare I had on my outing last week, by the way, it was fast, easy to prepare, and tasty

14 minutes ago, Saltface said:

and treasurer reports are presented.

You have got to read the notes to really understand this one.

Questions and things to look out for:

• How will they continue to spin the Summit expenses and bond debt as a great thing?
• How will they notate the issue with unfunded pension liabilities?
• Will there be forward looking statements on all the expected new revenue from Family Scouting?

36 minutes ago, Chisos said:

I think that timeline's possible (though crazy!).  6 months to get to 1st Class, 4 to Star, 6 to Life, and 6 to Eagle.  That's the 22 months.

That's doable, but they'd have to fit the 10 non-meeting Troop/Patrol activities in, in 6 months.

 

It is possible - The timeline (from attaining First Class) is 16 months.  That being said to get to First Class requires:

1. Since joining Boy Scouts, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, at least six of which must be held outdoors. Of the outdoor activities, at least three must include overnight camping. These activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect, such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee.

If the troop is active, a scout should be able to get the outdoor requirements

There is camping merit badge - 

a. Camp a total of at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events.* One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent.

*All campouts since becoming a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout may count toward this requirement.

Again, IF the troop is active and IF the Scout comes to things, that can be done in a shortened window.  

The challenge will be that older girls will look to join and earn the Eagle Scout.  With a new troop or a new linked troop, getting all of this met could be an issue.  Also will the unit have MBC available for all the required merit badges and earning 21 in that time can be a challenge

We have a scout that joined when he was 15 almost 16.  Had a conversation with him about what he wanted to accomplish in BSA beyond just the fun, experience, outings, and leadership (and if he had said that was all would have been fine).  He indicated he may hope to get Life Scout but felt not enough time for Eagle.  We sat down and looked at the timeline and key dates.  Talked about merit badges and what he needed for that.  Basically last summer (his first with us) he did High Adventure, and both summer camps.  This summer he is doing High Adventure and our second summer camp.  Also he has attended some of the merit badge weekends and clinics for some additiona.  If he stays on track he could accomplish the plan within a two year window.  That being said we are working with an older Scout and that helps.

1 hour ago, CalicoPenn said:

We're the Boy Scouts of America - we don't have a royal charter so what's the point of bringing it up?

As for the 1913 Scoutmaster handbook - my response is it doesn't matter what it says - the Scoutmaster Handbook has changed a number of times since 1913 - and it will change a number of times in the future.  A Scoutmaster Handbook from 1913 is irrelevant to 2018.  Like a physics or chemistry textbook from the 1960's, its now mostly just a window to the past - with many outdated concepts.  You can probably even find a more contemporary Scoutmaster(s) Handbook that uses the word Boy a lot - and it will be superseded and outdated when the BSA simply replaces Boy with Youth.  Society evolves - always has - there are things that were done 200 years ago that we would just not put up with anymore.  There are things that were done 105 years ago that we would just not put up with anymore.  Why should anyone be shocked if the BSA handbooks change to emphasis youth over boys?  If that instrument that many consider to be the infallible word of G-D can change (spelled that way out of respect for others) to change Thou Shalt Not Kill to You Will Not Murder, then by goodness, the Scoutmaster Handbook isn't exempt from being changed.

Correct we are the Boy Scouts of America, but as a point of historical fact the BSA grew out of association with the English Scouts.  If you are not cognizant and aware of the basic roots of the organization, then the shift of emphasis can be missed.

The point is that BSA and earlier the English scouts were founded and fostered to meet a need to work with and help develop boys into men who can be a positive asset to their community.  The leaders, movers and shakers, and people of influence saw that need.  They also saw a need for a similar organization for girls.

Now, yes society has changed.  The point is there is still that needed for an organization to work with and help develop boys into men who can be a positive asset to their community.  The current BSA has expanded their reach into many many things, not sure all of them are that focus.  The Girl Scouts (and they do have issues) at least continue to focus on their core mission.

Though you many want to, you are not able to rewrite or ignore history.  It it not 1984

Presuming you have reviewed this document

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor program/aquatics/pdf/430-501.pdf

Admittedly does not help on the where to find the training.  If you are inexperienced you may want to look for a commercial river outfit, do a 3 - 4 hour float / paddle.  See how that works, then expand

15 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Funny because it has a ring of truth....

33 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

There is a nuance to the discussion that is unfortunately been entirely missed and would have been very worthwhile. I wish we would have had time to discuss it but that is not the way the organization made the decision. At this point as the decision has been made (and rather poorly rolled out) all we can do is decide what we as individual and units are going to do. 

Pretty sure poorly rolled out is an understatement

With each "Big Announcement" (no doubt prepared by the the well paid PR team) there come out multiple clarifying statements.  

3 minutes ago, FireStone said:

That's open to interpretation. I often say "The boys are doing XYZ," or, "Let's get the boys going," or something along those lines just out of convenience (or laziness). It doesn't mean that I think only boys should be doing whatever it is I'm talking about. Nor does it mean that I can't just as easily adapt to saying "Scouts", "kids", or any other general descriptor. 

I suspect many Scouting materials have been written over the years with the same tone and for the same reason. It's easy to just say "boys", but it doesn't really tell us anything about any possible underlying intent of the person saying it. 

Not disputing that the activities can be done by anyone of any gender.

That being said, the first sections of the older SM guides are clearly about boys, male youths.  The intent is to focus on the boys, and the program is interpreted and (at the time) designed for boys.  The discussion is about boys.

From the British - About the Boy Scouts Association - Royal Charter 1912

The aim of the Association is to develop good citizenship among boys by forming their character -- -training them in habits of observation, obedience, and self-reliance --- inculcating loyalty and thoughtfulness for others --- teaching them services useful to the public, and handicrafts useful to themselves --- promoting their physical, mental, and spiritual development.

From 1913 Scoutmaster Handbook - The ultimate Aim of Scouting

Aim to secure balanced, symmetrical activities for your patrols. Remember your Scout is four sided, that he is physical, mental, social and religious in his nature. Do not neglect any one side of him, but get the proper agencies to cooperate with you for these ends. Let the boys do what ever they can. Merely insist on adequate adult supervision. Above all be patient, practical and business like and remember that old heads never grow on young shoulders. The Scout Master should take his place in the community by the side of the teacher of secular and religious instruction. He is an educator and is dealing with the most plastic and most valuable asset in the community — boyhood. Let him take his task seriously, look upon his privilege with a desire to accomplish great things, and always remember that the good of the boys is his ultimate aim.

21 hours ago, AVTech said:

The mission statement of the BSA has always said YOUTH, without mentioning gender.

That is correct, but to be clear the mission statement has not always been part of scouting canon, it is a product of the 60's or likely 70's.  There has not always been the feel good mission statement

Looking at the old school Scoutmaster Handbook (mine is 1938 printing) the emphasis is clearly on Boys.  What do Boys need.  How can the Scoutmaster make an impact in a Boys life.  What do Boys do and how do they interact and function in their gangs

No youth, only boys

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Any pressure will be on Councils, not existing CO's as CO's still determine their leadership and membership not the media, not the Council. 

I agree starting a new unit is hard here, but that is a National-made problem not the existing CO's.  As I understand the UK Scout Association has no CO's, maybe they have a solution.

My $0.02,

That is accurate, but there are many CO's that likely have little of no involvement with the Scouts.  They may provide a space (as does ours) but beyond that no real material support.  If anything we try to keep reminding the church what we do.   Eagle projects, include them in our Social Media, name on T-shirts, etc.  If the coed issue driven by the media gets legs, some will say "What...we have Boy Scout troop??"

23 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

...are girls being lured into Scouts BSA to increase enrollment numbers for the pensions in Irving?  The silly name change designed to be more welcoming for girls, suggests to me that BSA is changing for girls, not the other way around. 

44 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I don't think Scouts will go fully co-ed, if as volunteers we can get girl Troops and Packs off to a strong start.  

And therein lies the problem.  Few volunteers really have a depth of experience actually starting new units.  I have done it and it is a long play.  In a district of maybe 30 Cub packs and 30 Boy Scout troops you may actually start from scratch maybe 1 or 2 units per year.  There will be rebuilding and reforming some existing units, but few from scratch.  Now the onus will be to possibly startup 6 - 8 new units.  Some districts will have resources and gumption to do that, most probably will not.

Then there will be the hue can cry from girls wanting to join, but the troops will not allow access, BSA is not allowing access, the deck is stacked against them...  Cue the media outcry, then there will be a coed option, then the units that do not want to be coed will come under pressure and I bet in less than 3 years, all will be coed

Actually the hue and cry will begin in October of 2018, (less than 5 months away) as potential Web II young ladies visit troops (Webelos Scouting Adventure requirements 2 and 4) and they hear of what neat things troop XXX is doing, but alas that is not an option for them.

8 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

It is a sheath knife.

A Boy Scout of America sheath knife?

13 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I have also cooperated with a local GSUSA leader on a shared activity...and then she got in trouble.

We work with the GS Troop(s) at our church on Scout Sunday.  For next year I guess we can all be there, it seems we will not be able to talk to each other.....

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Same here, especially since there is a demand to go full blown coed from some of the adults in my troop. When having a discussion about needing female Scouters on campouts , the response had been "turn it into a family camp out" if a female Scouter cannot go. Told my boys that I will not go camping  with the "linked troops" without a female Scouter present.

I guess we are on the other end of the desire for coed spectrum.  No plans for anyone currently in our unit to start a linked troop.  If persons (we have to designated them as an Unsubs (unknown subjects)) want to start a Girl Troop, we wish them well.  Family camping would be a no go for me personally.

History often (somewhat) repeats itself

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting/USA

Scouting/USA was a "communicative name" chosen by the Boy Scouts of America in 1971 in an effort to rebrand itself.  The Scouting/USA symbol was unveiled at its biennial National Council meeting.  The organization retained the name Boy Scouts of America as its legal name, but planned to use the new name on literature, billboards, insignia, business cards and stationery and for most other promotional material. They abandoned this effort by 1980.

3 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

They are waiting until next year so that some of the first female scouts to come into the Scouts BSA program will be crossing over from the Cub Scout program - that's how they've always said they envisioned the timeline.

I've asked this numerous times - and no one has ever been able to answer - exactly how do you see the program itself (not the YPT stuff, not the logistics - the actual program - rank requirements, merit badges, camping/hiking/summer camp program) changing?  What rank requirements will change?  Will lashing be changed to macramé?  Merit badges on cosmetology?  All the girls I've talked to (current Venturers) have said they wanted to join the Boy Scouts because of the program that the BSA already has - they wouldn't want anything to change program wise.

1 hour ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Man, my wife said this was EXACTLY what was going to happen when I first mentioned it. She is right again.

I hate that.

My wife just wonders how long I will continue with the troop......