Jameson76

4 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

In 24 years as a troop leader, Committee Chairman, Treasurer, Eagle Scout Coach, having attended all but perhaps 6 troop meetings in that time, (and all but 6 campouts) I've seen a DE appear at our troop meeting maybe 3 times. Bearing nothing but a smile and kind words. Contributing nothing to troop improvement.

I have only seen the DE wander by a meeting maybe once, and they were wanting to talk about FOS.  The DE came out to see our Troop run camp summer 2020 during Covid, we sort of felt they were looking for things we may be doing wrong.  One year they stopped by our campsite at camp (once in my 15 years) to say I guess hello.

Bottom line, the professional staff has done zero to build bridges with our unit, the largest in the district

4 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I have never looked to a DE to provide any help to our Troop.  They have nothing to offer. The Council office has nothing to offer either other than to take our money.

Would agree.  We did have some questions on the new recharter process as the information had not been sent to units and details we were getting from other councils was somewhat conflicting.  Received the most arrogant and condescending e-mail response we had ever seen that alluded to sent information.  Looped in the Field Director and guess what, not communications was ever sent.  We advised the FD and SE and advised we did not want to have any further communications with the DE

4 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Unit Commissioners, well, they are as rare in their appearances. They have never offered nor contributed anything to our Troop.

So a while back we had a request from the District Chairman and District Commissioner that one of our adult leader register as the Unit Commissioner for our unit, that way the position would be filled.  We advised that seemed like pencil whipping a position and what value would one of our leaders bring to our unit as a commissioner as they were already actively involved with our unit.  They did not get back with us.

Finally found some details on my council, not able to find past years, but I know that overall, the council has less youth than in past years.  Most surprising, and possibly troubling item is that Cubs are now over 2/3 of the membership.  Maybe that will mean future growth.  Another possibility is that this is where professionals and council board membership team feel the easy pickings are, so that is where the efforts are.  Less risk and more oversight in Cubs, so the safety folks are happy. 

Other interesting nuggets:

• Equivalent of 15.5 adult volunteers per unit, which seems high.
• 2.5 Eagle Scouts per Troop
• Though not published about 1 council employee per 275 youth
• SE / CEO overall compensation is about $29.50 per youth.

22 hours ago, Tron said:

In my experience I think the #1 thing that a professional scouter can do to help the council/district/units is to constantly recruit new volunteers and encourage every unit to participate at the district level either through the COR or a COR delegate volunteering on a district committee. 

So I guess the DE would need to be actually visible in the district, maybe make an effort to get to know the units, and not be an arrogant and condescending person in communications with units.

What do we want from Professionals

1) Visibility - Our District has 20 units.  We have 3 units at our CO.  Doing math and assuming a 40 hour week, in a month the DE should be focused on what they can do to build our units close to 3.5 days.  We actually have no idea what they do.

2) Marketing - The professional should be involved in building the BSA brand.  Social media, local papers, etc. 

3) Recruiting - Leaders and Youth, focus on growing the brand

13 hours ago, yknot said:

Personally I think their end game or at least back up plan is that Summit and Philmont are going to be the Disney Land and Disney World of scouting. Scouting will largely become a nostalgic activity at marquee regional destinations with some limited local units as satellites around whatever regional hubs are worth retaining. Easier to manage and monetize. BSA is not built around local scouting and really doesn't show any signs of changing that. 

I know locally that seems to be how they raise the money to keep the professionals being paid, you focus on the history and the nostalgic thoughts of the BSA.  No mention of current operations, more "Follow Me Boys" than actually what is happening.

Local council has 40%+ of the staff either directly or tangentially involved with fundraising.  The DE's, who are supposed to be building scouting locally, are primarily charged with leading FOS, popcorn sales, camp cards ..... oh and maybe if time building units in the area.

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding why districts are failing, in some cases you got longtime volunteers who have been ignored and abused by pros, and they are fed up with it. They are told they will be treated differently by the new pros, but it is the same old, same old.

Also, there is the question, for districts where are the volunteers coming from?

In the good old days, you and son (now child) would be active in Cubs and then Scouts, as child aged out, you could become involved in the district, etc. etc.  With the larger number of units / adults at that time there was a supply of folks to choose and select from.  As has been noted, with the disregard by pros and no real cache to be a "district" or "council" volunteer, there is no pool available.  And, whether one agrees or disagrees with the policy and membership changes in BSA over the last 10 years, a number of seasoned and experienced volunteers have made their personal decisions and moved on.  

As for newer adults being brought in with Cubs and families, they are seeing BSA as an experience and doing their time with the kids, then on to the next thing.  Many are not even aware of district or council.  

Personally, I see even with the unit I am involved in, not many understand the governance and structure of the BSA.  District is a needed evil for Eagle project approval, and that's about it.  They do not bring value to the day-to-day unit operation.

21 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

 and $364M of debt on Summit.

 

This should not be underscored.  BSA spent close to $1B on the Summit when there was no need and no real overall plan to fully utilize.  Well, there was / is a plan, just not a realistic plan.  Look over the original presentations, it is smoke, mirrors, and hope.  They could easily have setup a home for the Jamboree at a much smaller area and at a much lower costs.

Why they keep pouring cash into the vanity project that is the "Summit" baffles me.  Sell the place and walk away.

As a reminder, Scoutreach and efforts to serve the underserved have been used by professional BSA staff to inflate membership numbers. Below are two articles, but the abuses were numerous.

Alabama Boy Scouts Accused of Padding Membership (foxnews.com)

Atlanta Scouts Inflated Numbers - The Washington Post

A needed effort, but the administration and potential for abuse is huge.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

They paid Mosby over $500K per year (full C&B).

The SE (sorry he insists on being called CEO) for Atlanta Area Council makes waaay more than that.  Thus no FOS for me.

On 11/3/2023 at 5:35 PM, Eagle1993 said:

Why, why, why do we hire retired leaders?

My guess this is more about getting ties into industry for donations than an leader who really wants to learn how scouting is done today, what parents/society/youth need and making necessary changes.

I would agree.  Certainly, a nice guy no doubt, but he is retired and 67.  Now that would definitely qualify him to run for President of the United States, but why not someone in their prime?  An energetic, new vision for the organization, someone who can get out and represent the BSA out of bankruptcy. 

As a businessperson, when I see a retired individual take over a company coming out of bankruptcy, I see someone who is either a caretaker for the next "real" leader OR someone who will be shepherding the company through its sale and breakup.

16 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

We have not had a feeder pack in about 12 years. Our Scouts recruited by word of mouth, and until recently most Scouts transferred from other troops in the area. We went from48+ back then, to 7 currently on the charter, and one of those ages out this year.  We will not be folding this year, but it may happen next year.

Because we have not been able to recruit in the schools, we are down to 2 packs in my county. 26 years ago when I first moved here, 10 active packs in the county. We had 11 active troops in the county, with 24-48 scouts each. we are down to 7 troops, with 6-24 scouts each. There were over 750 Cub Scouts, Scouts, and Explorers/Venturers in the county back in the day. Today there are under 400 Cub Scouts, Scouts, Explorers, and Venturers in the 7 counties that comprise my current district.

It is depressing. 

 

In our district we have one troop rolling into ours as they are not re-chartering, the SM's son crossed over to our troop and last 2 years we have had some of them attend camp with us.  Many of our scouts an theirs go to the same school, so they all know each other.  In talking with another SM recently they may nor re-charter, just not enough scouts.  They are not as close to us as the first one.

That is 2 troops units down in a small district.

10 years ago within 2 to 3 miles of our CO (church), we are heavy suburban, there were maybe 375 Cubs and 250 Scouts, today maybe 150 Cubs and 100 Scouts.  Big decrease.  Do not see the numbers of years past coming back.

To put current membership in perspective, there are now about 312 youth participating in Scouts (on average) in each county in the United States.  Your results may vary

979,902 participants / 3,143 counties = 311.77

13 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

 

This is as of Oct '23. 

Membership is still a challenge apparently

16 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Any updates on how recruiting looks this fall?  I seem to remember seeing a lot of updates last fall, in terms of major growth of Cub Scouts, but haven't seen the same updates this one.  Curious if anyone has seen Cub Scouts continuing to grow and any turn around in Scouts BSA.

The actual numbers for Cubs / Scouts / Units appear to be a closely guarded secret.  Our council makes no mention of actual numbers in any reports.  If you ask the professional / board group they judge BSA's success by the amount of money raised.  That is their KEY metric.

There is the report to the Nation, though not able to find one for 2021 (would have been presented March 2022) that contains membership totals.  Basically since 2017 the BSA has seen a reduction of more than half the membership.  Venturing, Sea Scouts, and Exploring are down by much higher numbers.

While some is pandemic induced, main challenges are lack of focus (overall) by the organization on actually getting folks interested in the BSA.  There is no marketing, no real effort to "sell" the BSA to kids and also families.  Recruiting is a challenge, but retaining those recruited is the actual issue and having a compelling program that is not burdensome.  

15 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I think this is a good summary.  BSA membership had a short-term boost by opening to younger and younger scouts.  BUT, it's now killing the membership numbers in later years.  Worse, it's changed the experience and also the perception of the experience such that many now question the value of scouting. 

My apologies as I've said it over and over again.  For my four sons, if I had to do it over again, I would have started my boys in scouts at 3rd grade when they could start being more independent with other youth their age.  Heck, I'd be okay if they had their first scouting experience in a troop and missed cub scouts.  The big big big big scouting benefits happen in the later scouting years.

Agree the big benefits of Scouting can happen in a troop and happens over several years as the Scout grows, matures, takes on leadership, and takes on more adventures.  As an Eagle, camp staffer for many years, former DE, ASM, and with experience in training and in district leadership (way back in the day) when I involved my son he joined in 3rd grade so only maybe 3 years of Cubs, which was a gracious plenty. 

He was very ready to move on to the troop and get to the fun of Scouting.

As a side note, when he joined the troop I was (and still am) only involved with the troop.  That is where Scouting happens, in the units.  So many key district and council volunteers are so far removed from actual Scouts out on actual outings, they have lost their focus.  A good thunderstorm or cold night can lead to a lot of maturity growth real quickly.

While at best anecdotal, and only a snapshot, just some local observations

1) The 2 Cub packs are our CO are basically 1/2 of what they were per-pandemic.  Both were in the 110 - 120 range, now both are about 55 each.  As noted the fees, etc.  seem to have cut into participation.

2) Our troop is about 60% of what it was, basically the challenge is the crossover numbers.  Was talking with one of the AOL den leaders, they had 12 in the den when they started, now they have 3.

3) At our week at summer camp the average number of Scouts per unit in camp used to be 26 over the last few years.  This summer the average scouts per unit was about 19.  In talking with the Camp Director that was about average for all the weeks.  While they had roughly the same number of Scouts in camp, the number of units per week was much higher

The focus on Cubs has been a short term gain (questionable at best) for long term pain.  Kids / families are burning out and leaving, also many families think Scouts will be similar and are not ready for the independence and autonomy of Scouts,  They seem to expect programming for an 11 years old their kid can easily move into, as opposed to programming for 14 - 15 year old that their kid(s) can aspire to.

1 minute ago, skeptic said:

Rather than sell it, rework the concept so that it is open broadly to youth other than Scouts, but also keeps the Scouting connection.  It very well could bridge the BSA with the larger society in a positive way, and also stop the financial drain.  We need to "again" be an integral part of society, rather than some kind of paria or afterthought.  But the focus needs to revert strongly to the actual youth, and ways to push the foundational concepts to the larger society.  What made the BSA so successful in its peak acceptance?  It was the image that these young people, not the adults, were living to a real code of honor and were NOT self centered.  Society is begging for that concept to be part of the larger culture.  There are still examples of this scattered about, but the lack of putting it before the public in a meaningful way is a huge mistake.  Letting the public know that Scouting is a positive influence and a major contributor to the better community is not bragging.  People need to know that BSA representatives, the youth, contribute to food drives regularly, that in some areas they rebuild major camps and trails used by the broader public, that they contribute to civic ceremonies honoring veterans and so on.  Our local scouts will be at the Government Center for the County on Veterans day, helping as asked with setup and seating and probably some element of the flag presentations.  Scouting for Food is still a major contributor to food pantries, but also done by units throughout the year.  Some do Christmas/holiday gift drives.  One unit has been supplementing the Bell Ringers for a number of years in connection with their CO.  Scouts are always part of local beach and park cleanup.  It goes on and on, yet few in the community really "know'; this.  That may be the biggest redirect.  But what would I know?

Well I think in general BSA marketing is non-existent and I would agree, we do many things and people do not know this.

As an aside, if our MAIN go to marketing message is your youth will be safe with the organization, that is probably not the ONLY and best message we we need to present.  If that is all we sell, then families will logically determine they can be safer NOT in scouting.  In no way wanting to lessen the YPT focus, but that cannot be our reason for being.

I trust he will bring a more streamlined organization.  With the number of Scouts and units, even if doubled, the BSA is bloated.  The organization needs to get more efficient technology.  The professional scouts need to focus on how to grow the program and not how to raise money and sell popcorn.

The BSA is a youth organization that (for Scouts BSA) is somewhat unique in that at its best is youth led.  The endless cub scouts and family camping is moving away from that and burning out kids and families.

Look not further than the great and hallowed National Jamboree went from 40K scouts (pre-covid) to 15K this year.  Organization needs to do a great bit of self reflection.

Also sell Summit and cut the losses

10 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

No.  Two deep leadership is two deep leadership, right?  So if we only have two leaders present  for the activity, then we can't send one off to work a station.  We already have violated the female rule.  My daughter (Tiger) went camping last year with no female leaders present.  Just me and the CM and a couple other families.  Since she is always with me, I'm not super concerned, and I'm sure other packs have the same issue.  I know troops do.  

Not actually.  Do not confuse "2-Deep" leadership at an activity with "1 on 1".

The 2-Deep leadership does not mean that 2 leaders will be present at all times around all Scouts (speaking more for Scouts BSA).  It means there are 2 or more leaders at the outing.  4 Scouts go fishing by the lake, all good.  One of the leaders wanders by to say hello, again, no issue, multiple Scouts, no 1 - 1.  Scouts are building fires at the site and a leaders is there, again multiple Scouts and a leader.

Don't overthink

In our council they have decided to limit the number of merit badges an MBC can be registered for.  In GTA it advised that National does not limit the number but local councils can.  Not sure why they want to do this, assume it's a money grab to get that $25 fee from more folks.

I know, let's drive more people away from the program 

So how does the BSA justify (support??) - market with a straight face the Family Camping sale at the High Adventure bases?  You could have families spending the night at BSA facilities with Scouts BSA aged youth and parents without YPT.  These Non-YPT folks could be around units.

Seems either ALL adults going on outings need to be YPT trained and registered EXCEPT when they are paying for lodging in "Family Camp".  Nice carve out

18 hours ago, skeptic said:

In the past few days we have now had two So Cal TV stations show Scouting's true worth and image.  KTLA had a cast member that shared his Philmont experience on their station.  Now ABC ran this.  https://abc7.com/abc7-salutes-monrovia-canyon-park-boy-scout-troop-66-california/13447126/  These are the types of things we should be doing to fix our image.  And, it should be local first, as they have the details and should know where to go.  And, meanwhile, National might work on regular, but not exhaustive shares in well placed spots.  Most of us know that it was often the positive vibes from local press that made many of us want to be in Scouting, as well as the excitement that was offered in a less overloaded atmosphere of things to do for excitment, fun, and attention.  

Sadly National and most council SE (or CEO for the really vain) only will care if it assists in the fundraising efforts.  Scouts out doing things and impacting lives is of little value to the Professional Scouters.  In their mind raising money is where the real action is.  How can the "positive vibes" be monetized

You could have the older Scout serve as a JASM to guide the younger scout as the SPL for camp.  Then the leaders in camp will never have to get out of their chair to deal with anything

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Don't forget you cna have out of council and out of state troops. Mine is going out of state, 2 adults' 6 Scouts.

Correct - For the week we attended, 41% of units were from out of council / out of state