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Posts posted by Jameson76

  1. 8 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

    The BSA successfully lobbied to change the WV Constitution. In Nov, 2014, voters approved the amendment which allowed just one non-profit (BSA) to rent their facilities to for-profit groups.

    As far as I know, the Summit has not been financially self-sustaining as promised. 

    These are not exactly 5 star facilities.  At the surface, maybe, but it is NOT a conference center.  Actually what is expected in a "conference" center has changed substantially in the last 20 years.  Now you want to be able to fly in, easy access, good facilities, hotel rooms, great dining, maybe some offsite entertainment (Top Golf / Regular Golf / Entertainment complex) to add to the conference.

    Not sure the recovered strip mine has that

  2. 6 hours ago, SSScout said:

    And how were  the Bechtel folks included in all this?   When the Summit was being dreamed/designed/built, the story I heard (files somewhere)was that Bechtel gave (?) $25M to purchase the reclaimed strip-mine site from WbygodV and then another umpteen million for the construction, roads, infra structure etc.   How is this included, or were we misled?  

    I will not comment on the misled, in my opinion, mis-managed or mis-judged

    Yes the land maybe was provided, but costs spiraled up as the wish list was made.  Also two driving factors, and honestly cannot find the original documents, the Summit was to be paid in two main ways.  

    • Donations - which lag behind
    • Attendance in NON Jamboree years - which lag behind

    The attendance was supposed to be heavy as the typical marketing stuff, 65% of the BSA is within XX hours to drive there.  It will be the new Scouting mecca.  I know for a fact that Summit reached out to local council camps to try and get them to be a "portal" for Scouts to do High Adventure.  Scouts check in at council camps then they (and their camp fees) head up to Summit.  Obviously the councils likely have their own HA summer camp stuff and they also need the revenue, so that has not panned out.

    Combine all of that; No Control of Cost, Low Donations, unrealistic attendance...you end up $400MM in debt and no real way to right the ship.  Just kick the can and the bond debt down the road a might.

    • Thanks 1
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  3. We actually discussed this at committee meeting.  Our troop is about 75 Scouts, suburban setting.  

    Decision was really no decision, just that we would keep on keeping on.  Our "do we cancel stuff" meter will be based on the local School system.  95% of our Scouts attend the public system locally.  If they were to shut down, we would follow along.  Not so different from weather stuff.  Also if the church (our CO) curtailed things, we would also pullback.

    But, as I noted to the committee, our meetings and campouts are run by the Scouts with a great amount of attention to cleanliness, hand washing, and the highest levels of sanitary conditions.  Why the CDC could take lessons from the patrols on meal prep, food storage, tent tidiness, and general cleanliness.  Our camping areas are so clean the Scouts can and in fact do eat things that fall of the dutifully scrubbed tables.  The dreaded COVID19 would not stand a chance among our urchins.

    • Upvote 2

  4. On 3/6/2020 at 12:55 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Hello All!

    First post for me...☺️

    Wondering if you could help me understand something???...I see Arrow WV named in the Chap 11 filing.  When I went to Charity Navigator and pulled up their IRS 990 from 2017 (for example), it names Surbaugh as VP and Director, with reportable compensation of $624,714 (page 7 of 45).  When I check BSA National's for same year, it lists Surbaugh with exactly the same compensation (on page 26 of 111).   Any corporate finance gurus out there explain that?  Looks strange to me...

    So to build the Summit BSA formed a corp (Arrow WV).  That group sold bonds, etc to finance the endeavor.  The Arrow WV group "borrowed" funds from BSA to build the great and powerful Summit.  This amount more than doubled and donations dwindled, but we digress.  This is now listed as an asset (receivables) somewhere north of $400 million.  If Summit is worth that much, have I got a deal for you on some bundled mortgages.

    Here is an article from 2013 that highlights the impending challenger


  5. 13 minutes ago, jcprofit17 said:

    Thank you for the information!  One other question regarding the application... Does the letter of reflection have to be completed before my son gets his application signed by his Scoutmaster and Committee leader? Or does he have to have this ready and available for his Eagle Scout Board of Review?


    He only needs to provide the information at the time of the application.

    Also on the letters for reference they only need to be asked for, but it is not a required.  From the Guide to Advancement - A board of review must not be denied or postponed
    due to unresponsive references.



  6. What others have said, need to spread the workload out.

    On the going to bed, no need to head to the tent at 8:30 just because others are.  I too typically go to bed 11:30 or so nightly.  On campouts (We are Boy Scouts  maybe Scouts BSA or Whatever the over 11 year group is called now) so Scouts and leaders start turning in 9:30 - 10 or so.  Some of us sit by the fire and enjoy the evening until time to hit the sleeping bag.

    For two night outings the boys tend to stay up later on Friday nights, then earlier on Saturday nights.

    Also - never underestimate the power of an afternoon nap in a hammock during the outing.  Quite refreshing

    • Upvote 1

  7. 1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:


    Let's not confuse 2 deep with no one-on-one.  1 adult can be with multiple Scouts at a given time.

    Good Lord this is the most confused element.  They are vastly different and wholly unrelated, other than both should be observed. 

    One leader of another unit at camp was concerned about how they could have Scouts at various troop activities as it would spread leaders to thin.  We talked with them, tried to guide them on 2 deep at the camp, but no one on one.  He could not grasp that if one leader went wandering to the camp store with 3 Scouts, that was not in fact one on one.  

    We took his thinking down the rabbit hole and tried to show that using that thinking for a troop of 20 Scouts you would need a vast amount of leaders.  I suggested personal autonomous drones for each Scout and a vast network of trail cameras to insure safety, but do not feel that my sarcasm was well received.

    • Upvote 1

  8. Camps have been through this prior, will get through this, and there will be panics in the future

    Here is an article from 2009 on Swine Flu (remember this was going to kill us all at the time) and Scouts affected at summer camp


    Maybe some additional screening, but most have protocols on Scouts with temperatures.  There will be hand wringing to be sure.  Many "experts" will have opinions.

  9. 45 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

    You are correct.  But has the scouting program gone overboard in certain situations when it comes to 2 deep leadership.  Example,  Timmy and Tommy are next door neighbors and best friends.  Both are in the same patrol which Timmy is the patrol leader.  They meet after school at one of them house to work on an activity for the next scout meeting with no adults present since there parents have not got home from work or only one parent is home but is inside the house and they work on the activity in the back yard.  Since this is a scouting related activity do you as a registered youth protection trained adult leader in there troop inform them that this activity is not allowed since it is scouting related due to the fact that they do not have 2 deep leadership.

    The similar issue that has come up with YPT, but more as friends.  You are a leader in the troop.  Your child is in the troop.  Another child in the troop lives nearby, they come over to play video games and other (maybe) school stuff on a Saturday.  As you are the only adult there, and YPT specifies in and out of Scouting, you are in violation of YPT rules as there are two Scouts there and only one leader.

    Oh the horrors

    • Upvote 1

  10. 9 minutes ago, PACAN said:

    Sent to me by someone  from this area.


    Another example that maybe councils may not be immune from being added to the bankruptcy???

    Not sure the Council is liable in this case.  I would say unless they (The Council) had some prior knowledge to possible leaders past issues, and did nothing, then they are doing what needs be done.  When they were made aware they removed him from Scouting, turned the investigation over to police, and advised the unit.

    Main issue with the past cases was (that by 2020 standards) they were not handled correctly.  Also there were serial abusers and with the patchwork of notifications, they moved on to other councils and units.

    • Upvote 2

  11. 12 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

    We had a professional marketing rep on staff, but fired her about 2 months ago.  I guess it makes sense. If we're not going to advertise or talk to the media, what do we need to pay a PR person for?

    Large council, we seem to have 3 folks among the cast of thousands over to the office that have marketing in their title.  Honestly have never seen anything out there in the local wide wild world about the BSA in our metro are that was in fact actually generated by the council office.  Another 6 have "development" in their title.  I am guessing that all of them are in fact involved solely with raising money so they, the SE, the Asst SE, the multitude of directors and specialists all can keep getting paychecks. 

    When in doubt and to balance the numbers just add in some of those In School units.  Gotta look good to the donors

  12. We put the crossover Scouts in New Scout Patrols, for the first few months.  They work with older Scout Guides on Scout / TF / 2nd Class / 1st Class requirements.  For summer camp they roll into mixed age patrols, helps them get to know all the other Scouts, moves them into the troop.

    First meeting of the fall they are rolled into our standing patrols.  As noted we have the mixed age patrols so the new Scouts learn from the current Scouts.

  13. The BSA, for all of it's marketing and development folks, is absolutely the worst at any type of marketing.  Basically it is non-existent.  This is at both the National and Local levels.  For them to be able to get out in front of something, they need to have a grasp of what that something may in fact be and UNDERSTAND why they need to get in front of said something.  They need to be able to TELL the positive story, but they may not understand why the story needs to be told.

    Yes Scouting is local, but it's like any franchised business.  The National office generates the buzz to drive consumers and the local shop delivers on the promise.  With BSA is seems that the local shop has to source their own customers, tell the stories, generate the buzz; then pay the money up the chain.  Think I saw that business model in Goodfellas.

    There should be marketing for the BSA that drives Youth to be interested in the program, to SELL the program.  Then the local units close the deal.

    Sadly if you are not involved in Scouts chances are you will never be aware we are around.  There are some units that have a presence on Social Media, but those are very few and most are not very good at posting regularly or putting out a good story.  As for any traditional venues like billboards, popup posters, etc; non-existent


    • Upvote 2

  14. Main question I would have is who is the beneficiary and is this log pile habitat core to their mission.  How many of these are being constructed?

    I also question the purchase of food to support the beneficiary, not sure I've ever seen that in a project before


    5 hours ago, Proudeagle said:

    The main questions are:

    1) Is this a feasible project?

    2) Does the Proposal contain the necessary information to show that the project is going to pass the "test"?


    Certainly feasible.  Maybe have the Scout expand on how this supports the beneficiary

    • Like 1

  15. 1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

    Your representation and reasoning is correct.  And I suspect the legal situations follow your reasoning.  exist.  The simple fact is many of these cases were not pursued back in the time when it happened.  Not by parents, police or society. 

    For that reason I have some trouble with some of the cases being pursued as noted above and as stated in the new reports.  Many were in fact never reported to family, police, councils.  Sadly that is the truth.

    Did this happen, we have to believe the account of the abused.  Is the Scout leader still alive?  If so pursue criminal charges.  Does the abused person deserve counseling and support, absolutely and that does appear to be happening if media reports and BSA National releases are accurate.  Does this make the abused one eligible to get a large cash settlement?  Not sure about that.  Many factors are in play.

    If the BSA and the local council was aware and did not prosecute, maybe.  But as many of these incidents show, some were reported but the authorities did not prosecute.  It is incredibly hard to look back 40 to 50 years and make the case that it was handled incorrectly based on 2020 standards.


    1 hour ago, HashTagScouts said:

    Exactly.  Any lawyer is going to make that a significant point that somehow the council chose now, this event, as the opportunity that they are trying to hide assets.  

    My understandings from what I have seen posted on social media is that the attorneys involved with the Abused in Scouting organization are focused on liquidating the BSA, and that includes any assets held by Councils.  I've seen comments on their SM over and over that "the world doesn't need the BSA", etc. My interpretation is that they believe that everyone involved in Scouting in the past, as well as those today, are all implicitly tied together in allowing any cover-up of abuse (in other words, if we wore/wear the uniform, the National/Council/Unit separation is insignificant).  I am not saying I agree with that point of view, but I can understand why they will attempt to argue that Chapter 11 is not sufficient and come after Councils and COs.   

    There is the actual rub right there, one group wants nothing more than to dismantle and sell of the valuables of the 100+ year old organization for profit and one group really wants to continue the mission.  

    As we have all noted, this will not and cannot end well.

    • Upvote 3

  16. As an interim step, and to begin the process, what about a backpack and a duffel bag?

    The backpack can get your personal gear, food, small stove, tent, etc easily to and from the vehicle.  Then your large duffel can have chair, sleeping bag, pad, etc.  You have two bags and easy to transport and handle

    As you migrate and advance to more backpacking you go from say a normal camp chair to a backpacking chair; move to a more compressed sleeping bag, more of a backpack sleeping pad.  Then suddenly everything fits in the backpack

  17. Speaking of DE's and the professionals. 

    The local ones have had the bonus helping of BSA kool aid following the Chapter 11.  Now the group is Dallas is "Our National Affiliate", let's distance ourselves from them guys.  All is great, this Chapter 11 thingie is a good step, Council assets will not be part of this, they (assuming lawyers) will not come after local Councils, etc

    It's a tough sell, but really.  Also if the discussion is membership and units, they all talk about how the year ended, adding girls, good growth..but no detail about how things shook out after recharter.

    God love them, but man, they remind me of candidates spokes staff hitting the positives after their candidate finished 6th in a 5 person race.  

    • Haha 1
    • Upvote 3

  18. 2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    Here is Arrow WV, INCs latest 990.


    They are claiming it is worth $385M (after depreciation).


    • Land - $121 million (how much is there like 10,000 acres??) - $12,000 per acre?
    • Buildings - $136 million - Assuming a very generous $135 per SF for space - do we really have 1,000,000 SF of space there??
    • Leasehold Improvements - $108  million that seems like a lot for infrastructure
    • Equipment - $13  million that is equivalent to 130 of the most expensive 2020 Corvettes (C8)

    Philmont must be undervalued

  19. 1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

    Note due from Summit?  Is that indicating that Arrow WV basically borrowed money from BSA and that is "due" at some point as retired debt from operations and donations?

    Thus BSA is listing that "receivable" from Summit (Arrow WV) as the asset for the site?


    46 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

    Correctamundo.  Do you think we can get out of this whole thing by transferring that "receivable" to the victim's fund? Good luck collecting on that.

    I also noted that they specifically noted that they did not include Oil & Gas Royalties or the Artwork - Original Rockwell paintings on their asset list.  I wonder why they could do that.

    That's insane - The Summit high adventure facility is in a separate legal entity, Arrow WV.  BSA has a note receivable due from Arrow.  The note due from Summit is $345M.  Did I mention that's insane?  The folks responsible (Professional BSA / Volunteers / Board Members / etc) they should be in court for being insane.

    No way on God's Green Earth that patch of WV is worth anywhere near that amount of money.  So Bankruptcy is what happens when you throw all your money down a rathole

    • Upvote 3
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