Buffalo Skipper

Well, our scout shop finally got in the new Pack Trainer knot. They ordered the right number every week and it kept rejecting for a whole month; eventually the order took. And, no surprise, it is mostly unlike any of the 4 variations I have seen on the internet thus far.

It closely resembles this one in it's style: http://knots.boy-scouts.net/packtrainer.jpg However, it has different shades of blue and yellow than pictured.

This example refelects the colors very well (but not the style): http://meritbadge.org/wiki/images/3/3c/PackTrainerAwardKnot.gif

The result is a bright yellow background with a knot with alternating stands of royal blue and bright yellow. The bright colors combined with yellow on yellow makes it this difficult to even tell it is in the shape of a knot. In fact, it just about gives me a headache to look at it and try to focus. It certainly does not "fit in" with any of the other Cub Scout awards (I don't like the Tiger Leader knot, but I agree that the color combination is a good match to the Tiger program).

I am extremely disappointed that this turned out so...weird, especially since over the last 2 years it went through so many different evolutions. They gave themselves multiple opportunities to get it right and failed repeatedly. Aside from the hideous color combination, the quality of this knot is lower than any patch I have ever seen BSA produce. Any insight as to what is going on "upstairs?"

(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Being 10 years old does not qualify him for boy scouts. In fact, the youngest he can join is 10 1/2 because before the age of 11, he must earn the Arrow of Light (or complete the 5th grade) and 10 1/2 is the youngest the AoL can be earned.

It is possible for him to finish his Arrow of Light, but his schedule will be different from the other boys in his den, and it will take the cooperation of multiple den leaders. First, he will need to earn his Bobcat, and that can be done with the help of the boys who have already done that. If he is diligent, he can earn his Webelos by mid-January (3 months) and the AoL will take another 3 months. Does your Council run a Webelos Weekend campout or other Webelos midway or rally? That would be a great time to work on some achievement pins.

All this will make him AoL eligible by, at the earliest, mid-April. But cross him to his chosen troop at that time, with all the ceremony you would othewise afford your Webelos (at B&G, or whenever your Webs join a troop).

My wife has a Webelos 2 den, with 4 new scouts working toward AoL. The den leader of the other W2 den decided to "not accept" any new scouts this year and cross in November. Rather than abandon these boys, we realized that we can barely make our B&G from their joining date in 6 months, so we are working to see that every boy is "accommodated" and that no one is dropped or left behind. All the parents are very cooperative and so far, they are on schedule.

NJCubScouter,

With the communications flow you offered, can you give me a sense of your troop dynamic, like size, number of patrols and general age breakdown?

BW,

Our BoR runs smoothly and quite by the book. And, though years ago we used to have BoRs once a month, our troop has "shrunk" since then, and BoRs are now generally conducted as needed. We are expecting to have a big growth spurt this year, and I am working to ensure that troop and administrative processes are running smoothly now, in preperation. And as a Sea Scout trainer, I am very familiar with the differences with Venturing vs Troop BoRs, but that is another topic.

It seems fairly widespread that it is the scout's responsibility to contact the Advancement Chair to arrange the meeting. To be honest, I had never really considered this, but with some thought, I do like the idea and what is implies (scouts taking responsibility for thir own advancement). We have a fairly new and inexperienced Advancement Chair, but she is eager and active; once scheduled, she makes things happen. We have a committee meeting tonight and I will bring it up with her and then the committee.

My next question is when and how is scout advancement recorded? Obviously, and most importantly, the Scouts handbook is paramount. We are using Troopmaster (Dotnet), but we have no interenet access at our meeting place. I don't want to wait until a scout has completed a rank before we record any advancement in TM. So when do you "transfer" requirement completions from their book to TM?

Now, the Scout Shop is restricting the rank patches, so without an advancement form, you can't get rank patches.

Ours is doing the same thing. We have always kept a supply on hand for immediate recognition, reserving the card for the COH. Recently the troop"ran out" of rank badges, and we could not get any new ones without an advancement form. We had a new advancement chair, and an unexpected lost scout book delayed our getting in the advancement form. Now when we are low on a rank patch, we buytwo for each advancing scout (keeping one on hand for local stocks). This allows us to keep on handenough, and hasworked out well thus far.

I wrote this recently for use at our upcoming first new PLC meeting. I got the idea from the History Channel show "TR: An American Lion," and I backed up the facts with on line sources. What do you think? Any improvement ideas?

In 1898 Theodore Roosevelt was the Assistant Secretary to the Navy. He had worked hard to build a strong navy for the country and he has succeeded. When the Spanish American War broke out that year, he resigned his comfortable office job to lead a volunteer force of cavalry. These men, who were an unlikely mix of Western cowboys, frontiersmen, Eastern athletes and sons of prominent families, were not trained as regular Army personnel; they became known as the Rough Riders.

For several weeks they fought their way across Cuba, which was at the time a territory of Spain. They battled, not only Spanish soldiers, but also a variety of diseases like malaria and yellow fever, and many a man died of either disease or wounds from battles. Toward the end of the campaign, the Spanish fleet was trapped in Santiago Harbor, and a push was made to secure the high ground surrounding the bay. One particular objective was the heavily entrenched San Juan Hill.

There was a strong push to take this area, and the division with which the Rough Riders was assigned, were directed to take the nearby Kettle Hill. After taking the hill and still under a dangerous barrage of fire from the well fortified, adjacent San Juan Hill, Roosevelt, without orders, directed his men to charge that hill and rode off. After a few hundred yards, he saw that he was accompanied by only 5 other men. In the noise and confusion of battle, the rest of his men had not heard him. While being fired upon by the enemy, he turned around and rallied his men for the charge with the new command: Follow me!

Needless to say the Rough Riders took San Juan Hill. Two years later he was William McKinleys vice presidential running mate, and upon McKinleys death in 1901, Roosevelt became one of the most famous presidents of the United States.

You are leaders of this troop. How well do the boys listen to what you say? Do you think they would better respond to the command Charge or the invitation to Follow me?

When a scout has completed all his requirements for a rank (excluding Eagle, for this discussion) and has finished his Scoutmaster Conference, what do you do next? I know all troops are different, but does the SM inform the Advancement chair? Who tells who what?

Additionally, and especially for those with Troopmaster, at what point and by what process does this get recorded?

Evmori,

So what you are saying is that if the scout had not completed half his requirements in a year (as an example), and a SM calls a conference to review his progress (this is a SM conference, as described on page 124 of the SMH), he must sign off the conference, even though the scout is not ready to advance? I realize that this is one example, and applies to maybe 1 in 4 or 5 SM conferences.

A SM conference should take place only after all other items have been signed off. Let's assume, instead, that the SM evaluates "scout spirit" at the conference, which I believe is a fairly common practice. If there are disciplinary problems or other less quantitative issues, they would generally fall under the "scout spirit" category. If not met, the SM should not sign off the "scout spirit," quantify the areas where improvement is needed, offer a timeline to see improvement, and have another SM conference after that time.

If requirements have not been signed off, regardless of whether a SM conference has been conducted or signed off, a BOR cannot take place.

Thank you all for your input. I believe you have left no doubt whatsoever about where and how the denner cord is is to be worn.

Prehaps more amazingly, no one got their knickers in a twist over it either. Someone should record this it may be a first.

"...is a Denner like a patrol leader for a Webelos Den?"

A denner is member of aden who is the chosen "helper" for the den (any den, not just Webelos--my original question revolved around the tan shirt with the epaulets, hence the webelos references).

The time period is what the den leader specifies, but usually 1-3 months. The boys in my den are a real mixed bag, and mostly do not know each other from classes. I asked them to choose a denner last week, for 2 months. Each boy wanted to vote for himself, so I asked the boys to work it out, and I stepped away and let them work it out for themselves. They played rock-paper-scissors to decide. Everyone was satisified, and in fact seem proud that they had solved the problem on their own.

So far, it is working out fine.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I searched the forum and the internet to no avail, so it is time I asked the most opinionated experts I know--you.

There are several webelos dens in our pack which are utilizing Denners for the first time. The question is, how are the tabs pinned on the shoulder (in relation to the epilettes)? Is is over, through, outside of, or under the tab.

"...does the MBC have to turn in to the District an adult app every year?"

That's a good question, OneHour, and I will share what I know. I just looked up Merit Badges in the Advancment and Committee Policies and Procedures guidebook. It states that the district or council advancement committee should send out a letter annually to invite MBCs to contintue their registration. That opens up other doors, through which I do not really want to walk. One person at our council office (not our registrar), said she would re-register them each year (which I believe she can and will). That kind of blanket statement resembles sinkholes which can swallow up whole houses.

In other words, I think each council handles this as they see fit, which explains my particular situation, as in the big picture of budget, program, units, and budget, MBCs are lower on the council's priority list.

"...we don't want the council to come back later and 'take the AOL back' saying that they were not qualified for it."

I can't imagine a council which has so much free time and energy on its hands that it would go around a pack to "take away" an AoL from a Cub Scout. Aside from that, the requirements are the requirements. What some boy scout committee member thinks of cub scout requirements is pretty irrivelent in the greater scheme of things.

On the other hand, if they were to "refuse" admission to the troop because they didn't feel the AoL was earned by their interpretation of the reqirements, then I would run to another troop so fast they would hardly know you had ever been to visit.

Just relax and award the AoL as it is earned, and do what you feel you need to from there, either crossing over or wait until a later time. But, either way, find a good troop to join.

Lisabob,

Is that form distributed by the scout office? Is is generated from Scoutnet? If it is, then there must be a way to record that in Scoutnet (which I have been told there is not).

On the other hand, if the list is maintained as a separate document, that is another issue entirely. I don't think we could make that work here in our council, knowing our office dynamic.

Beavah,

I like your approach. And I do like the idea of having the ASPL move up to SPL, using the ASPL as a training.  I am not 100% for this, but I cannot knock the merits.  I think it has significant drawbacks, but rather than being negative about it, let me relate what we have tried work into our program.

Our troop dynamic would not allow for this long terms, largely because of the role HS sports plays with our older members.  One is in baseball, another in swimming, two in soccer, and three on the track team (a couple are on more than one team).  These largely run different seasons, and we work had to keep our 6 month schedule in line with as many of these as possible.  As an example, our current PL of the "older boy" patrol is a very good baseball player.  Once baseball season starts, he will be unable to fufill his obligation at troop meetings, which is just before the end of his PL term.  Likewise, our outgoing SPL is a swimmer, and he currently serves as Instructor, because, as much as he would be a good TG, he shows up to meetings 45 minutes late because of swim practice, and will be unable to attend campouts because of conflicts with swim meets.  Next election (when we may have a full new scout patrol), he may be TG, as he will have no conflict. 

Our troop is growing again, and within a year and a half or so, we may have enough "experienced" scouts to better fill the senior leadership ranks with out conflicts (hopefully).

Each troop has their own quirks, hangups and snafus--and they change over time.  Rigid flexibily.  Be firm on what works while it is working; yet be mindful of changes and be ready to change the status quo, when the need arises.

" 'If the system has no way to differentiate this information, why include it on the form?'Which "system" are you refering to?"

I am talking about the Scoutnet (or what ever it is called) database used by the council.

Again,I was told that if someone turns in a registration as a MBC (along with form #34405) with the portion at the bottom indicating they only want to work with Troop XX, that is "ignored," as there is no way to indicate that as the registration is entered into the computer.

MBC is entered with a position code 42, which is a district level position, so they cannot be solely registered under the umbrella of the troop. If there is no way to indicate troop preference, then how does one find only those persons registered to teach for "their troop."

We had a recent "situation"; nothing serious, but it raised eyebrows, the way it played out. Oneparent (whosesonlacked one specific MB for Eagle) announced they would be hosting a "class" on a particular date. [all red flags aside, it worked itself out better than I expected, but hear me out] I checked Troopmaster, and she was not listed as a MBC for that MB. I accept that her background makes her qualified, so I called the scout office and we looked at the "troop" files and could not find her listed. I discussed the matter with 2 other members of the troop committee and the SM and we were all concernded. She called me with a related question, and I worked the conversation to MBC registration. She ensured me that she had been to the scout office a month before and verified that she was registered as MBC for said badge (contrary to what I had found out). I remained non-confrontation about it (I am glad I did!) and when I was in the office a few days later, I talked to the registrar about it. We determined that she is registered as a counselor for that badge. Of course shewas listed as a district volunteer,and notunder the umbrella of thetroop. The registrar told me she had no way of recording that any counselor interested in serving a particular unit instead of the entire district.

To reiterate my point, why does the form allow this distinction between troop and all, if there is no method of recording this?

I also serve on the District Committee, though in training, not advancement. I am working through the issues and trying to find an answer I can present to the committee on this, hopefully by our Novmeber meeting.

I agree with what is being said. We have a number of 5th grade Webelos who will be crossing over in the middle of October. They will not have been out of the 4th grade but for 5 months, but they have met the 10 1/2 rule and have completed the AOL requirements.

Not to battle semantics, but why does what the "troop" advancement chair says matter?  The AOL is a cub scout award, not boy scouts. 

Thanks for the info. What I am trying to rectify (in my head) is on BSA form #34405 just above the bottom where it gives the options: "...to work only with insert unit number." or "...to work with all units."

If the system has no way to differentiate this information, why include it on the form?

This question if for anyone with a better understanding than I on the Scoutnet database system.

Our registrar told me last week that the system only allows her to register MBCs as a 42, which is a district (not unit level) position. Therefore, all MBCs must be available to all scouts.

I am not knocking our registrar (she is a friend), but is this really right, or is something being overlooked?

Thanks every one of you for your advice, especially those of you critical or questioning of my/our actions. Whether I agree or disagree with your advice is not really the point. It is these opposing viewpoints which most make me consider and evaluate my own direction. Our goal is to bring our troop into a position in which they act as patrols, and with your suggestions, I believe that we will be there soon.

Tonight is the first PLC with our new SPL, after which I will have more on which to base our "current" and "upcoming" status.

**** we interrupt this thread for a brief hijack ****

At our CoH on Monday, we had one young brother (2nd grade) who was quietly playing a video game in the back, and he had 7 (...count them s-e-v-e-n....) other games spread out on the table in front of him in case he was bored with the one he was playing. Talk about having the attention span of a gnat....

**** we now return you to your regular discussion ****

Information on the upcoming Seabadge Conference has been posted on the Southern Region Sea Scout page.

http://sregion.seascout.org/forms/SBCFTSHSR33.pdf

Also online is the application.

http://sregion.seascout.org/forms/SBCAPPLSR33.pdf

Please, help me evaluate our weekend outing, and the CoH which followed.

For the campout, 6 boys showed up, all 6-7th graders. Two who had confirmed the week before called as we were packing, and did not show. This was to be the outgoing SPLs last outing of his tenure, but he had a swim meet and did not come, but this was known in advance. The remainder of the older boys who had pushed for this campout also were unable to make it.

Two PLs did make it, leaving us with patrols of 2 and 4. Our SM has had some health issues and ended up leaving late on Friday evening. We camped in a state park, in the group area, but spaces were no larger than a regular (RV) camping spot. Both patrols camped together across the road from the adults, and largely out of sight (but not earshot), as we were unable to separate further in this location.

One of the PLs was chosen (by the SM who left early) to lead for the weekend. The second PL took more of an APL role, and there were no problems; in fact, in the eyes of the adults (and scouts, as best we can tell) the senior PL did a great job. As food had been bought for separate patrol preperation, each small patrol did their own cooking and cleaning. We (adults) never looked in on them, and they did well (they brought us samples, and the fish tacos were perfectly cooked and seasoned!).

After an unusually lengthy cleanup on Saturday morning, we drove the 6 miles out to the gulf beach, where there was a red flag flying. This means that, though the beach is open (2 red flags is closed), there are strong rip currents and dangerous conditions The waves were excellent for surfing, and the wind was around 20 kts. As we adults were unexperienced surfers, safety ruled, and we were not comfortable with novice surfers in those conditions (only one scout was "experienced," but his skill level was nominal). We went back to an inland beach, where the boys lunched, swam and played on the surf boards for several hours. They were disappointed about not being able to surf, but they had a blast anyway.

Before dinner, when we were back at the campsite, I ran a simplified "Roses and Thorns" with the boys, bringing out what each of them could have done differently, what we collectively could have done better, and ended with what was going well. The effect was good, and I briefly talked about what we might do differently on the next campout. Because of the the amount of time it had taken to clean up from Saturday breakfast, I had the PLs set a goal for Sunday breakfast/clean up, so we would have time to try to surf again that morning. They reached their Sunday goal (they were in fact--of their own accord--in bed by 8:30 and up by 6:00 am!) and were ready to leave when they said they would be. Alas conditions were Red-flag again, and we we had a repeat of Saturday's activies. Again, they had a lot of fun in the water before they cleaned up, broke camp and went home. It was discussed and agreed that if they want to plan anther surfing outing, we will have 2 experienced adult surfers meet us at the beach and assist us.

Monday was a big Court of Honor; it was the responsiblity of the outgoing SPL to plan the program, but he did not prepare. I wrestled with what to do; in the past, a previous Adv. Chair had planned and executed all CoHs, and I really wanted this to be boy run. I threw together a program and handed it to the SPL and said, here. Though this may sound like a recipe for disaster, he is a capeable speaker and was able to wing it, with a better CoH than the troop has seen in years. There was new scout initiation, awards, program, new leader induction, and even a song. SM inducted the new SPL who then inducted the PLs. All but one registered boy attended (17 yo who was working). One (veteran) parent came up to me afterward and even said, "Wow, that's neat the way you had the boys run everything."

As I have said earlier, the SM will be stepping down by the December CoH (good time to transition), but I have been given a free hand with the PLC, which has been weak for years (I know, PLC is the SM's job and not mine, but I have to work with the cards I am dealt on this one). So, where do I go from here?

Kahuna wrote:"Not all crews or ships are coed. What about an all male Sea Scout crew?"

Then there is no need for co-ed leadership, but all other guidelines of supervisionapply. As an example, do you really want your ship of 14-20 year olds taking out your 40' cabin cruiser or 35' sailboat for a day trip or weekendanchor-outwithout adult supervision? Or what about a work project on your almost done electrical system?

BW,

I stand corrected, and you are right. The TLT (same as Chapter 7 SMH) has a chart listing the "Youth Leader Training / Conducted By" with the Patrol leader training to be done by the Scoutmaster and SPL. In my own defense, eventually I would like to see the SPL conduct this training.

As for our troop dynamic, that is a different story, and I guess relevant to this discussion, at this time. Hang on, this will be a wild ride....

Our troop is a 75+ year organization. For several decades during the 70s 80s and early 90s, it was the largest, most recognized and respected troop in the council; for 15 years it had over 75 (active!) scouts. I grew up in a "rival" troop less than 1.5 miles up the same road, which belly upped about 15 years ago. I "came" to the troop when our pack had to abandon the school charter it had for the previous 43 years, and we rechartered with the church (I am now a member of the church Charter Organization). I showed up at a committee meeting, saying, "here is my pack, let's work together." I joined as a committee member, initially acting as a liaison between the troop and pack, and later as training chair. It was quietly agreed by the committee (behind my back, I later discovered), that I was viewed as the SMs likely successor, even if it was to be several years out. The troop had about 10 active scouts, a committee which was barely hanging on (3-4 showed up at meetings, on a good month), a COR which had not been seen for years, and was in a leadership/youth survival mode. The primary adult leadership was the SM and the Treasurer, and for all intents and purposes, there were no ASMs. I eventually changed my registration to ASM two years ago, but switched back to CM a month later so we could actually muster enough for a BoR. Something had to change.

Being an active member of our CO (church men), I bent the ear of the president. Together we recruited one of our veteran church members to be the new COR. He is a "double Eagle," earning his Eagle with this same troop in 1953 (his son earned it in 1983, he serves on Eagle boards and was a past District Chairman), which is to say, he was just the right person to take a leading role in the troop re-development. We had an unexpected crop of Webelos join this year (our church now charters 2 cub packs, each 60+ strong), so we worked hard to build a "new" and stronger committee, which has helped.

Please don't think with all this I am trying to "take over" the troop. What I have done is facilitated leadership in the committee and reinvigorated our relationship with the church. These people I have recruited are not "yes" men (our COR is a retired board member of the area power utility--hardly someone I could push around). Knowing that I was to be stepping into the SM role, I wanted a strong, decisive and committed committee supporting the program.

I am an active trainer in the district and sit on the training committee. More importantly, I am someone who pays attention to those around me (including those on this forum). I have spent the past year trying to re-introduce the 8 methods of scouting to this troop. I found that they were firing on 5 of 8 cylinders, but were open to doing better. It was a situation where, though I was not SM or CC, I was able to encourage ideas, slowly. The SM and I talked this past week and finally set a general time line of 2 months or less before I step up. My last "objective" before this happens is to work with the committee to recruit at least one steady ASM.

The troop is on the cusp of what may be a tremendous growth spurt. Our troop now has 2 packs with the same Charter Organization. I am the outgoing Cubmaster of one (new CM took over for the first time last night!), and now that the pack is with the church, many of the pack members have a church connection. The CM of the other pack is an Eagle with the troop from 15 years ago, and his father was SM of our troop for the last 10 years of the "large numbers." My son will be crossing from the first pack this year, and I can state a minimum of 6 of his den will likely cross to our troop; we are looking at least the same from the other pack. This would double our troop size, and we are looking at similar numbers the following year. Interestingly, we are reaping the rewards of 2 past events, recently, the shifting of the 2 packs to the church as CO, but more interestingly, several members (parents) of both packs were scouts with this troop at its heyday, and their kids are now in Cub Scouts. To be honest, I see it as my responsibility (and that of the committee) to these historical members that we have a healthy troop when their boys cross.

Sorry for the rant, but I hope it puts into perspective what I am trying to accomplish. My goal is, of course, a healthy, youth led troop, utilizing the patrol method. This plan (of mine) has been in the works for some time. As CM, I could not commit to being the leading force in the troop, so I have worked in the background, but since summer when I stepped down as CM, I have been more active in troop activities. I think I learned more at summer camp this year than I did for 3 summers camping and 2 years staffing as a youth, and I still have much to learn and experience to gain. I feel that I have a better than average grasp of what makes a troop run right. It is a matter of learning and experiencing how to apply that in the real world.

Thank you Kudu,

That was the kind of clear-cut response I was looking for! I really think you put it into perspective when you talked about ADVENTURE and scouts being HAPPY.

I get the impression that you may have mistaken a few things I said, but it could have just been that I was being too wordy and not clear. No point rehashing that, I want to focus on your ideas here.

Most of the boys are energized about the surfing campout (this weekend). I don't think FUN will be left out of this one. It has been 4 years (almost to the day) since our troop's last surf outing. It was on the island at Fort Pickens, 4 days before Hurricane Ivan struck. We were the last troop to camp there, as the road has not been rebuilt.

Our patrols do have their own boxes, and nice, well equipped ones at that. The patrols have always been responsible for preparing an stocking their own boxes, and have already done this for this weekend.

I know who is the best cook for each patrol, and at least one of these was set up to work with the first year boys to help them out, who are really looking forward being able to cook.

We usually have one particular adult take the menus and do the shopping for the boys. Yesterday, instead, he met with the boys from 2 patrols and the boys shopped; it was a step in the right direction, and we will continue to pass this responsibility to the patrols. It was never about setting the scouts up to fail, but about getting them in the habit of assuming this task.

At the campout, we will separate our patrols (as space permits) and work with the new SPL.

Thank you for the games tips. Night games Friday and Saturday will definately be in order. I can still vividly remember games I played on my first Boy Scout campout (and almost every campout after that). What do you think about making teams out of patrols? The SPL could pull that off, if suggested. Should we also push a campfire program? Many of the boys see this as a chore rather than fun. We have a CoH the following week, so I don't want to overdo it (or overthink it).

Next month we were going to have a formal Cook-off, which everyone is excited about. Any idea about what surprises I can throw out at them on this one? Like right before prep begins, hand them a roll of aluminum foil and say "No Pots!" or maybe right after they buy their food, we can tell the PL that everything must be cooked in a dutch oven?

More than 1/2 of our most active boys are just making Tenderfoot, 6 months into their first year. Recent campouts (which I have missed) have been largely adult run, as the older experienced scouts have failed to show up. I want to avoid this in the future, and what you have presented (and what I have read on other recent threads) have given me some significant ideas about how to do that with patrols and without (if necessary) the "older" patrol.