Hawkwin

I think the Exploring split was pretty hastily done at a time when the BSA was about to lose all contact with Public Schools. 

I think the Exploring split was pretty hastily done at a time when the BSA was about to lose all contact with Public Schools.  The BSA's policies were conflicting with the Public Schools duty to follow state and federal government non-discrimination laws so they set up Learning for Life without the BSA policies that were conflicting and moved the Exploring program - minus the high adventure posts - to LFL so both the Boy Scouts and the various public schools could have a win.

 

With STEM - they were able to plan better.  They knew that for the STEM Scouts to succeed, they would need access to public school laboratories if this was going to work so they created a Non-Discrimination Policy that everyone must abide by (as opposed to the DRP apparently) that works for school districts as well and it appears that they decided to add the Scout Oath and Law by making a conscious decision not to engage in the debates of what the Oath means when it says Duty to God (presumably, Athiests, etc. can just not say those words) or what it means when it says morally straight.

How weird. That would seem to be backwards. STEM has the requirements to recite the Pledge, Scout Oath and Law. Explorers do not. STEM does not have a Non-Disc Agreement. Explorers do. STEM meets on school grounds and is quite literally an after-school program. Explorers, to my knowledge, never meet on school grounds.

Makes me wonder why BSA has not revisited this issue for both organizations.

Within the last few months, I have attended an information session for both a local STEM Scouts and a local Explorer Scouts unit.

I was rather surprised to find out that STEM placed the same emphasis on Duty to God that Boy Scouts do.

https://stemscouts.org/frequently-asked-questions/

STEM Scouts follows the Scout Oath and Law with the goal of producing men and women who are leaders, display confidence, realize their skills and limitations, are respectful of others’ opinions, are problem solvers in all aspects of life, look for opportunities to serve others, are good citizens, and demonstrate integrity in all phases of their lives. Each meeting will open with the Pledge, Scout Oath and Law.

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Considering how the STEM program works, it seemed an odd requirement, but I shrugged it off.

I then attended an Explorer presentation for a new unit.

http://www.exploring.org/about-us/

Exploring programs are designed for all age groups from pre-kindergarten and not yet age 21. Youth participation is open to any youth in the prescribed age group for that particular program. Adults are selected by the participating organization for involvement in the program. Color, race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic background, disability, economic status or citizenship is not criteria for participation by youth or adults.

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Not even a mention of the Pledge, Oath, or Law - and we were told that such is never recited at their meetings of events.

What I found surprising is that how these two very similar programs could have such different requirements of membership while both being part of BSA.

<-Father of a Firecrafter (Camper).

Your link appears to be broken. Just reloads your post.

http://www.firecrafter.org/

I have no problem with the Boy Scouts going co-ed.  I work with co-ed programs all the time.  The only reason why I work with Boy Scouts as it stands now is because it is an all-male program.  It's is unique.  Once it loses that uniqueness, then any co-ed program will do if I wish to volunteer my time.  I'm already booked with my co-ed church program and a co-ed community program.  I'm not much of a chauvinist, but I really enjoy my Men's Bible study, Lion's club, Boy Scouts, etc.

 

maybe after 50+ years, it's time to step down anyway.  This just might do it for me.

It has been a while since I was a Lion but my local group was coed and there are often adult women leaders and volunteers with the Boy Scouts so it isn't really as all-male either - at least not at the comparative peer level.

 

If you add girls to the mix, the level of paranoia will increase. And the worry is that the rules to compensate for the fear will make it that much harder for any adventure to take place.

I get that. I have a daughter myself and have a minor panic attack every time I think of the rate of sexual assault on college campuses...

But, no one is forcing girls to join. Seems to me that if girls want to be in an environment where it is 99% boy and where the adult leaders are 99% men, then two things:

1. They likely have a mom or dad that is already active in scouts.

2. They have a mom or dad that will be willing to be a volunteer in scouts to alleviate any of their concerns.

If I had a fear of an organization, I doubt I would be very interested in my daughter even applying for membership. I think it highly likely that the majority of girls that would apply for membership have already self (and parent) selected in such a manner that they are not overly concerned about the gender dynamics.

As far as marketing and using some B level star (I love you Mike Rowe but you are not selling movie tickets!), that is highly unlikely to work.

If you REALLY want to appeal to the youth of today, it is somewhat simple (but not easy). I propose three things:

1. A Cub Scout cartoon. Make a cartoon that shows how fun it is to be a cub scout.  Make a bunch of cub scout super heros that use their skills to save their communities. Put it on the Cartoon Network. Make action figures that go with the show.

2. A Google/Apple app game. It seems everyone has one of these "match 3" games these days. My daughter played a Frozen version of one for a while. Make one that actually give you "credit" for completing aspects of the game. Could even give a unique belt loop or other recognition for people that play the game. Want the trinket you just won?! Click this link to be directed to your local cub scout den for more details.

3. Our own YouTube channel. I don't about your kids but mine try to spend every waking moment on their tablets. If we had a cool and fun channel, perhaps narrated by some kid with an English accent (no idea why but both my kids love Minecraft vids of UK people), showing scouts doing wild and crazy fun stuff, they we would be marketing to a captive audience that might want to go out and do what they see online.

Kids that are already enjoying the outdoors likely already have an affinity for scouts. The others that are glued to tech are unlikely to develop such if we employ campaigns that are more geared to convincing adults.

Make scouting something kids ask their parents if they can join, instead of a thing parents ask their kid (or tell their kid in many cases) to join.

I've asked this question several times. I even asked National Commissioner Charles Dahlquist. The best answer I got was "A Scout is Trustworthy." The implication, to me, is that a girl who lies on her application and says she identifies as a boy just to get in Scouting, is not living by the Scout Law and not going to make it very far. Certainly others in her troop will know if she lives as a boy all the time or if it's just an act she puts on at Scout activities.

 

There's the rub, what is, "lives as a boy?" I don't mean that question to be facetious. I am simply illustrating that such may be getting difficult to define these days. Who gets to define "living as a boy" when someone can claim to be a boy at any time? I would imagine that there are troops in some states that are already applying a lot of flexibility to the recent rule change on trans scouts.

What gender is a trans boy (someone born a girl) that still dresses like a traditional girl but likes traditional boy stuff? Are we defined by our attire or how we act? What if the scout claims to be both/neither?

I think of California where people are allowed to claim no gender on their state ID and driver licenses. I assume that schools may allow students to make the same declaration. What is a single-gender organization to do in that situation?

This may be true in the big blue bubbles, but.....

Not so sure about that; or perhaps more accurately, true for now. The suicide by cop Georgia Tech student (clearly a red state) identified as "nonbinary" and "intersex." I would guess that there are more such students on Georgia Tech's campus - and that student was a Georgia resident, not someone from the blue bubbles. While certainly a minority of the population, BSA has already said that someone like him could have been a member of Boy Scouts.

As long as the CO accepts the new and current membership rules (removal of the ban on sexual preference and acceptance of trans scouts), I don't see how adding girls that haven't declared to be transgendered any more of the "camel's nose." Again, the cat is already out.

For those COs that don't accept such, I doubt anything is about to change. Heck, I am not positive my CO would change. We might still have such bans in place. I don't honestly know.

I will add, that there are currently 4 or 5 states that now even allow people to declare "X" or non-gendered on their state driver licenses. I imagine that list of states will grow over time. What would BSA do about such an adult that wants to go camping? Do they get to count as both?

As it pertains specifically to this topic, what keeps a person born a girl, simply declaring she is a boy so that she can be in BSA already? Maybe for her/him, being a "boy" simply means a desire to hike and camp? Gender is becoming so undefined these days that it starting to lose any validity as a means to differentiate.

We already allow self-declared transgendered scouts to join. The cat is out of the proverbial bag and it isn't likely to go back in.

I can see it now, male Scouter self identifying as a female Scouter so that girls can camp.

That is essentially the problem with such a restriction. These days gender is fluid and in some cases, completely lacks specificity. People are now identifying as non-gendered or gender-neutral.

Thanks for the information on Venturing. I wonder how they handle such situations of trans and gay parents. I don't see how in the age in which we live, the gender of the chaperone provides any assurance. Certainly decades ago when it was only men and boys camping, violations still happened.

Thanks qwazse (how do I link your name btw?)

For me, it isn't an issue of trust, it is an issue of logistics. The default assumption is not to trust, hence Two deep leadership and YPT. I can't say that I know every parent in our troop and I certainly can't speak to their sexual orientation or their criminal history (or proclivities). I have to trust that even if there was an adult (male or female) that had such attractions for children went on a camp out, that they would never allowed to be alone with scouts and that I have trained my son how to handle such situations.

You could have straight dads on a camp out, gay dads on a camp out, straight moms, gay moms, bi-moms, transgendered moms, etc. etc.

Simply having someone that identifies as a mom or female go camping with the girls does not necessarily provide any greater protection, or trust for that matter.

Within my son's troop, one of the scout's mom is gay. Having her chaperone girls would not necessarily be any "safer" (though I trust her completely) than having a dad chaperone. Logistically, I don't see us getting so far off into the weeds of asking each parent their sexual preference - and even if we did, we all know that declared sexual orientation doesn't provide any protection from a child predator.

If a parent can't trust BSA with their daughters because of the lack of female leaders, then they should not necessarily assume that a female leader provides addition protection. Two deep and YPT should be what creates that trust, not the assumed and potentially fluid orientation of the chaperone.

That's the issue that's missing in the poll: not enough moms. It doesn't matter if the units are coed or not. Hopefully I'm wrong but we've had moms that will do some challenging campouts once, likely just to say they could do it, and then they're done with that. The problem with GS is the lack of dads. It's not that all moms don't want to do it but the dads are more likely to want to do the adventurous stuff.

In an age of gender fluidity, would "moms" even be a requirement considering two-deep leadership and YPT?

Seriously, why would we necessarily need more moms if we were some mix of coed? Not arguing that moms wouldn't be beneficial, just not necessarily an impediment to such a change.

I like the changes. Perhaps something more about the youth that teach at camps being not qualified to be MBC but perhaps still OK or qualified to teach the material - but still requiring the material to be “explain†one, “show†one and “tell†two back with the Patrol or Troop with a certified MBC.

Guys please, let's keep this friendly.

 

Anyway, I can understand that spending $500 dollars with nothing to show in return is a hard sell.  But "earning" merit badges at a camp simply for showing up and attending the classes, or worse, being instructed by a youth in a merit badge that he may have little knowledge of (reading from the MB book) or having the Scout not want to go back because he can go to school for free isn't worth $500 dollars in my opinion either. 

 

I know that this may be tilting at windmills, but I would at least like to try and improve the camp experience for Scouts. I am using the Patrol as it is a good way to size a class, as most patrols are from 6 to 8 young men.

I would think it would have to start at the council level since camps are not usually district specific (at least not to my knowledge - we have two dedicated camps in our council that get scouts from many districts, including from other states). I am sure a district can exert some influence on a camp but such might be more productive and successful if you coordinate with other districts or the council.

I think your focus on just those activities that are outdoors (ore more accurately, non-classroom) is a great start. Camping, Hiking, Backpacking, Swimming (and other water related MBs where appropriate) with the understanding that credit will be earned but that there either will be required pre-reqs or post camp work to be completed.

I still think you will be challenged by the fact that camps will still want to advertise just what a scout will accomplish as a means to recruit people from other districts, councils, and states. Our local camp was recently featured in the list of the top 20 best camps and I would bet if I were to go back and read their advertisement blurb, it probably listed the MBs one could complete while in attendance.

On a bit of a tangent, what about the actual MB camps? Our council holds two different ones a year that are basically MB factories. We have a summer "First Class" camp designed to help the scout earn everything they need for First Class and we have a summer "Baden-Powell Merit Badge Camp" for Eagle required Merit Badges. Our district also holds a MB workshop every fall. Other local districts appear to offer the same at various times of the year.

 

"But then you can't control where the scout goes to camp either. My son, due to our existing family routine and traditions, often misses going to camp with his pack or troop and has many times tagged along with another troop, even in another district."

 

He apparently feels little connection with his patrol.  The troop exists for the administrative convenience of the patrols that make it up.

 

What about what I stated previously would make you think such was apparent? He was recently voted by his peers to be Patrol Leader so my assumption is that he is well connected to his patrol, despite his priority to spend time with his family at specific and pre-determined times of the year that might conflict with a certain scout camp.

Life long family traditions > a specific camp.

In our troop, parents have zero say on where summer camp will be. 

But then you can't control where the scout goes to camp either. My son, due to our existing family routine and traditions, often misses going to camp with his pack or troop and has many times tagged along with another troop, even in another district.

For the upcoming Fall Camporee, he will be going with another troop from another district as we will be on vacation during his own Camporee. Next summer, he might go to a camp out of state to try something new as well. I personally think he experiences even more growth by going with strangers than with friends but then I might be biased on that point.

While the leaders of your troop might be able to control where you go as a troop, scouts (and parents) are still free to attend the camp of their choice.

Building on an idea from thrifty, I would like to propose the following:

 

Why offer merit badges at all?

To go back to thrifty's point:

 I am not paying $500 for my son to have a personal vacation.  Right or wrong, I expect some kind of return on my investment. 

As long as MBs are required to advance, my hypothesis is that parents will continue to want some advancement credit for their money. I personally don't want to send my son to a week long camp only to find out that he needs to redo at home much of what he did at camp to get credit for advancement.

Otherwise, there are probably cheaper YMCA camps that are just as much fun with the same lack of advancement credit.

We did not signup just for the merit badge (most camps have cooking anyway), but large classes can be prevented by having a limit on how many can be on one class.

I am sorry that I was not more clear. You could not and did not know the size or the format of the class before you signed up. Even Nationals, absent additional rules, guidance, and perhaps auditing the specific class, could prevent or limit the class size.

Years ago, I worked for the American Camping Association. They have an accreditation program that requires camps to pay a fee to be accredited. That accreditation requires certification and auditing of various aspects of the camp. The only likely way Nationals could clamp down on the MB program at camps would be to create something similar. That being stated, it isn't just camps. My son recently attended a class on a weekend for a specific MB taught by the DNR. Nationals would need to regulate their class size and content too. That creates additional expenses for both the MBC entity and for the National organization.

Since anyone can sign up to be a MBC and since such is approved locally and not nationally, I think regulating this activity would have to fall on the councils, which of course would require greater work on them - and then only if they really want to more heavily manage camps in their council area. My guess is that many councils won't.

Example, I was in a cooking class with at least 30 people (5+ picnic tables filled). We did not actually cook food, we boiled frozen chicken tenders.

You won't (and didn't) know this before you signed up for the class so there is little that can be done to stop that. They larger issue is whether or not you signed up for that camp based on the MBs it offered. If you did, then that is the topic the OP is trying to address. If camps continue to offer MBs then there would be little Nationals can do (absent auditing every single class and program) to ensure that they are run according to standards.

For the climbing, cooking, and first aid merit badges, they should require adult interaction.

They don't require the interaction of a stranger. For example, you are not required to go interview someone in the cooking profession for cooking. Adult interaction is different that being required to communicate with a stranger.

Some merit badges require a scout to seeking out an adult stranger and interview them - and such was one of the core tenets of the MB Program:

The purpose of the merit badge program is to allow Scouts to examine subjects to determine if they would like to further pursue them as a career or vocation. Originally, the program also introduced Scouts to the life skills of contacting an adult they hadn't met before, arranging a meeting and then demonstrating their skills, similar to a job or college interview. Increasingly, though, merit badges are earned in a class setting at troop meetings and summer camps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_badge_(Boy_Scouts_of_America)

Some quick feedback:

I like it so far and I generally agree with the premise that MB assembly lines at camp is a bad thing.

I have a general disagreement with the cause of the problem which upon my quick read through, appears to be missing. The "Why" the parents and scouts are shopping for camps in that way. The fact that camps cater to them is the SYMPTOM of the ailment, not the ailment itself. In other words, if you want to cure cancer, you have to find out what is causing the cancer. Giving a prescription to treat the symptoms doesn't cure it.

My hypothesis is the that ailment - parents and scouts shopping for a camp based on the MBs they offer - is caused by having way to $#@$(* many merit badges. We have created a culture of achievement, from the first meeting of cub scouts, that is based on DOING IT ALL. By the time cubs crossover into BS, they and their parents have been hard-wired to want to get each and every merit badge, every patch, every little bit of everything that is available. It only then logically follows that the members (and their parents) desire to achieve the MBs in the easiest, cheapest (both time and money), and quickest manner possible.

You state that the MB process should only be completed as written but that is logistically impossible in some cases without some major re-writes of the requirements. Take Home Repairs for example. There are something like a dozen home repairs required that are to be completed under the supervision of the MBC. How is that going to work? I invite the MBC into my home and my son and him/her paints my walls or fixes the leak in my sink? Is that MBC going to invite the scout to his house (YP potential problems) to repair something? How many scouts can that MBC actually serve with such a requirement?

I don't know about other councils but locally it can be quite a chore to find a qualified MBC to volunteer for some or the more labor intensive MBs. Asking your Advancement Committees to more actively recruit such individuals might be more work than they are willing to do, considering the 138 or so MBs that are out there.

I think you might be asking too much of Camp Directors to change their business model absent a change in the market they are trying to serve. BSA has created this crazy demand (so much so that nearly every time someone earns every MB, it is celebrated in print) that is unlikely to change unless the emphasis on the requirements and achievement changes. Parents and scouts will continue to shop for a camp based on what they think is important. Asking camp to change the customer isn't likely to be successful.

Good question. Of the merit badges my son has started or finished:

Whether or not the MB requires some form of contact of an adult (and likely) stranger:

Citizen in the Nation - yes

Climbing - no

Collecting - no

Cooking - no (a bit of a surprise)

Dog Care - yes

Family Life - no

First Aid - no

Gardening - no - requires a visit to a location but no required interaction.

Home Repair - no (and the requirements of this one needs to be fixed otherwise there is virtually no way this is completed correctly unless the counselor is a parent).

Leatherwork - no, must visit a place of business but no required interaction.

Music - no

Physical Fitness - no, requires a doc visit but no interview.

Reptiles and Amphibians - no

Salesmanship - yes

Scholarship - yes

Skating - no

Not a lot of professions on that list so this isn't likely representative but still only 4 solid yes' out a list of 16. I would guess that less than half of all merit badges have a requirement to speak to a stranger. Probably quite a few that require learning about a profession or visiting the place of business without actually requiring the scout to speak to someone working in that profession (e.g. Gardening and Leatherwork)

No attachment.

A child knows exactly where the buttons of his parents are. 

 

In addition, what happens when he's 16?  He goes to Mikkie Dees, Ozark Auto Lube, or Fillerup and Go quick shop and asks:

"Mr (Ms) Smith, may I work for you?"

 

How does being counseled by his own parents prepare the Scout for exposure to adult strangers???

 

For many if not most of merit badges, I don't think that concern would be overly relevant. For the relevant requirements, a scout still has to approach an adult working in the field to perform the interview and if I am the Merit Badge counselor for say Dog Care (and especially if I am not a vet), then my son would still have to complete:

8. Visit a veterinary hospital or an animal shelter and give a report about your visit to your counselor.

He would have to do that with an adult stranger. Me being the Counselor doesn't alleviate that requirement. Even if I was a vet, he would still be required to visit.

Your concern might be an issue for a single profession where the parent works in that profession but for all other merit badges that require interviewing a professional in that specific field, such should not be a concern.

Maybe I am naive, but would an American Scout really go to a World Jamboree, or any large gathering of Scouts, without a neckerchief?  All the kids in my troop wear neckerchiefs, it is considered part of a complete uniform.  I believe the same is true for all troops in my area, though admittedly it has been awhile since I attended a Camporee or other district-wide event with Scouts.

 

On occasion a Scout will forget his neckerchief at home, but I can't imagine one of our Scouts not taking a neckerchief to a National or World Jamboree.  I think for the 2013 Jamboree, our one Scout who went was provided by the council with a special council-specific neckerchief.

Neckerchief is optional. Page 4.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066(15)_Web-4.pdf

Boy Scout neckerchiefs are optional.

Troops choose their own official neckerchief.

All members of a troop wear the same color.

The troop decides by vote, and all members

abide by the decision. If the neckerchief is not

worn, then the shirt is worn with open collar.

Boy Scout and Boy Scout leader neckerchiefs

may be worn in a variety of plain colors and

contrasting borders.

Our cub scout pack stopped wearing (and buying them) when my son was either a Wolf or a Bear to cut down on the cost and make scouting more affordable - as well as the fact that the two major boy scout troops in our area already didn't wear them either as a required item.

 there is no difference between the two sexes is, to me, highly objectionable.

 

 

Curious. What part of the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Slogan, or Code do you think should be different for girls?

Please, this is not an attempt to be facetious but is there a way a girl would do First Aid that is different than a boy? How about how they would do a bowline knot? Hike five miles? What are the differences that concern you?

This isn't to suggest that girls and boys may not have different interests (boys might prefer football while girls might prefer cheerleading, for a generalize example) or certainly different body parts but I fail to see how the activities of BSA are necessarily genders-specific or gender-biased in a way that creates a "difference" that requires exclusion. I remain open to any insight you or others can provide on such.

Edit: Fixed minor typo.