Hawkwin

@@SSF

 

 

The problem with GSUSA is how it is organized, and the local leadership. Many threads on this site discuss closed GSUSA troops where a leader won't take a girl if she doesn't have the right color hair, go to the right school/church, isn't BBFs with leader's daughter, etc, etc, etc. Also,if the individual troop leadership doesn't do mud, bugs, tent camping neither do the girls in the troop. If you have a arts and crafts leader your troop is arts and crafts. GSUSA also makes it very hard for a leader to take her girls camping, they must take several "classes" to be certified to do it. Heck, you can't start a fire without having taken a class.

 

 

It is interesting that you mention this. My GS daughter just had her first meeting with her new troop and the girls voted on the activities they would do for this year (planning meeting that is scout led, what?!?!?) and the girls voted to go camping. My daughter was one of the majority that voted for that activity.

I was both shocked and proud of her.

No offense to you directly MomWhoCamps, but the fact that the BSA is now actively recruiting girls, all just shameful.

 

I know it's kind of a radical idea but how about boys participate in Boy Scouts and girls participate in Girl Scouts...? What's so wrong with girls who actually want to play with dolls and Easy Bake Ovens? Our society and culture seems to be pushing girls towards becoming more masculine. They're told that they should not want to be like "Barbie" but rather "Rey" from Star Wars.

 

As a side note, it's also incredibly sad to me that Star Wars has largely become a franchise for girls. more so than boys.

 

Right now there's a commercial running in which a dad and his daughter are hard at work making...of all things...a pinewood derby car! And then at the end of the commercial they cut to a whole bunch of girls (not in any type of uniforms) apparently having their own pinewood derby...seriously?? Where did that come from... 

 

There's another commercial for an airline in which a child (whose face we can't see) is dressed in an astronaut costume going through the airport getting ready for a flight, with parents in tow. At the end of the commercial, just before they board the plane, the child takes off the helmet and..,of course...it's a girl, not a boy as we might have expected...how very PC.

 

If girls, or their parents, want a more outdoors oriented experience then the Girl Scouts should look seriously into offering programming along those lines, or look into Venturing when they're old enough.

 

Perhaps the BSA's next evolution (or extinction) will be in transitioning into the Scout of Political Correctness, or perhaps the Social Justice Scouts.

 

Also, I'd encourage everyone to read "The War Against Boys" by Christina Hoff Somers

Why can't a girl both like dolls and Easy Bake Ovens, AND hiking, camping and everything BSA? They are not mutually exclusive. Additionally, there is nothing inherently or exclusively masculine about the activities of BSA. My son just earned his Gardening Merit Badge. What part of that is exclusively masculine? Cooking is a required Merit Badge for Eagle, is that exclusively masculine too?

And why is it sad that girls might like Star Wars too??? Why do you think boys need exclusive ownership of this sci-fi soap opera, especially the little franchised dolls?

I've read the War Against Boys. I 've also read (and own) Wild at Heart. Neither of those books would suggest that boys need isolation from girls in order to be mature and responsible adults.

Fascinating. Would love to hear from someone that has a more recent experience with Troops from that area.

For me, I signed up to be a MBC for those badges that we can't seem to find anyone locally. That way, my son/scout will not be limited by having a single MBC for the entire District (as we have found with Scuba) that is not responsive to emails or phone calls (he probably quit).

Well, as it pertains to restaurants and numbers served, we can certainly serve a lot more youth at McD prices than at Ruth Chris prices. I doubt many middle and lower class families could afford our organization if we went to such an exclusive model.

 

Good point.  And now that you mention it, I don't remember ever doing anything to raise money while in the Cub Scouts.  Of course it has been awhile, but I do remember very clearly the fundraising that I did as a Boy Scout, so I am going to conclude that there was no fundraising while I was a Cub Scout.  And the pack was chartered to a public school (this was in the 1960's) so I don't think our CO was giving the pack any money.  Go figure.  Maybe the dues were pretty high, but still...

The only thing I can remember selling was candy bars, and not very many of those.

Agreed.  The BSA program becomes interesting and a big value proposition for ages 10 to 16.  Yet now we have them join at age five and they are burnt out on the program before hitting the core program where BSA shines and the program becomes easier to run.

I had not considered that before, the burnout factor, but I can certainly see how it can be an issue. I know I had burned out a bit after being a Popcorn Kernel for three years in a row so my first year of boy scouts I basically did nothing as a parent/volunteer. I needed the time off.

@@Hawkwin, true, if one is dismissive of evidence, one cannot draw conclusions.

 

Regarding 1. In my experience, it is sheer folly to dismiss leaders who abandon your organization. The vacuum left when it comes time to rally the troops in the following years is palpable. Meanwhile, some of them are fully capable of bolstering whatever non-BSA youth program they desire. Lose leaders, lose boys. Take decades to recover. Period. Pilot programs? Like Scouts UK? Venturing? Suppose there is noteworthy recruitment of boys on a pilot program. Why wouldn't the "it's not the girls, its the {insert excuse here}" logic apply as well?

 

 

You may have missed my opening paragraph where I stated, " It would be rather unfortunately for them to leave, especially before we have any idea if there will be a change or even what it would look like." I am in no way dismissing them but if they are determined to leave in advance of any announced change or the details of the change, then there is likely nothing we can do about that. My hope, as I also stated in the first paragraph, is that most of our leaders have more patience, grit, and perseverance than that.

For example, the inclusion of gay scouts had no impact on my son's Troop. To the best of my knowledge, our CO did not open membership to such. Why quit in advance of a change that may not impact you or your scouts?

Pilot programs? Like Scouts UK? Venturing?

 

No, a pilot of whatever BSA wants to accomplish but tested in select number of Councils before rolling it out to the entire nation. This is something often done with new programs. A cereal company may run a pilot program of a new cereal in a single state to gauge sales. A bank may run a pilot program of a new checking account in a single state to see how customers respond. Trails-End may run a pilot program of a new method of selling or a new product to just one area of the country before making it nationwide.

BSA should run a pilot program of whatever they are trying to change to find out if it is going to work before rolling it out to the entire country.

"I have found my space — and that is with Boy Scout Troop 414 in New York City. Contrary to what some might think, the Boy Scouts is not specifically tailored to boys. Its mission is to “prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law.â€

 

With the Cub Scouts, I went on camping trips, built my own wooden car for the pinewood derbies, learned about what firefighters do and even earned the highest award, the Arrow of Light. With the Boy Scouts, I have been able to learn and teach first aid, earn merit badges, earn lifeguard certification, complete the mile swim (twice) and even take on the role of patrol leader at camp. These opportunities were available to me because of the Boy Scouts, and although I am not yet officially recognized as a member, I would not have been able to learn or teach these life skills without the program."

 

There are other articles indicating Troop 414 has accepted her as an unofficial member of the Troop. It seems to open up legal questions if we are reallly boy only how can Troops have her serve as patrol leader. On a personal level she seems like an awesome leader and probably more deserving of her ranks than many boys, I'm just wondering why the BSA would allow this to continue and wonder what the legal implications could be.

As someone that fully support the rule of law, it would indeed appear that this council is breaking the current rules. There is no way she could have taken on the role of a patrol leader without a violation of the rules. She may have "earned" a merit badge by completing the work but she should not have been "awarded" or received a merit badge or the Arrow of Light.

Further investigation is warranted. A Troop should no more be providing her recognition for those accomplishments/education than they should be for an adult scout that has aged out of the troop.

See Eagle94-A1's response.  In order to have separate but equal, you need a whole second set of leaders/meetings/camping... at BEST, I believe you'll see a handful of girls want to sign up, not near the numbers of the boys.  The level of infrastructure needed to run girl only troop will be nil, and the family will have to do double duty, which isn't "convenient" to the stated goals of the BSA, so they will be folded in on each other and become full on co-ed troops.  All-boy option will be gone.  You can bet on it. 

Thank you for the clarification.

If that is the case, then I would think that BSA-girls would operate in the same manner as GS - In order for their to be a troop at all, there needs to be a parent volunteer.

In the grander scheme of things, that may not be such a bad idea. If enough girls want to join, then there needs to be a parent willing to become a trained volunteer. Without such, then no girls troop. That means BSA-boys do not suffer a reduction in leadership based on such inclusion. I don't think that there would necessarily be separate meetings or camping as that would be unnecessary. Just have dens and patrols by gender.

I am not quite convinced that the all-boy option would be gone - especially if it is gender-based dens and patrols. Additionally, I would imagine that quite a few religious charting orgs will keep their troops boy-only. My impression is that full co-ed integration is not just around the corner if it is left up to the chartering orgs to approve and implement any changes. 

@@NJCubScouter. If they wanted to avoid any legal issue, I would think the BSA would revoke the charter of Troop 414 who is working with her on her quest for Eagle. I'm not a lawyer but I'm curious if she could argue that gender isn't a critical aspect of the program (since they allowed a Troop to work with her) and since she is going to be denied Eagle Scout (which clearly has value with scholarships, etc.) even after completing the work.. she would have standing. I wouldn't be shocked if this goes the legal route and NY State Supreme Court rules in her favor. I think US Supreme Court wouldn't (based on the last case) but the public relations hit would already be effective. I doubt it gets that far as I expect BSA to change their policy ahead of any legal challenges. However, if they really don't want to change I'm surprised they haven't been more aggressive with the Troop supporting her. This is really regardless of where anyone stands on admitting girls, the BSA clearly is letting this go on without any challenge which is a change on how they handled gay and transgender scouts in the past.

On what possible grounds could they revoke the charter?

Are tag-alongs banned from participating in activities?

I would think that as long as she is not doing anything that might create liability (e.g. being in a canoe with a scout without having passed the BSA swim test) then she would be free to participate.

In looking at the various merit badges required for Eagle, I don't see anything that would directly violate a BSA rule. If you know of one, please share.

You haven't read what these scouters have written, or talked to a wide range of scouters in your community. They say if BSA sanctions inclusion of girls in its packs and troops anywhere in the US, they will leave the BSA. I take them at their word. There was a rather insightful user, Back Pack, who abandoned this forum last month explicitly because of this issue.

Perhaps such a response, "I will quit if you do X" in advance of any details, especially before any decision is made, says more about the quiter than it does about the issue at hand. It would be rather unfortunately for them to leave, especially before we have any idea if there will be a change or even what it would look like. Such a biased opinion does not seem to be one that is open to the opinion of others. I would hope that BSA has a greater percentage of both leaders and scouts that have more patience, grit and perseverance than that.

So you concede that including young did nothing to help Venturing's decade-long decline?

By logical extension: including girls is unlikely to help reverse the trend for BSA's other units.

 

I don't think I commented conclusively one way or the other on that issue. I am not informed enough on the specific details of their decline to have an informed opinion. I was simply illustrating that one cannot draw a conclusion based on the data we have. There are too many variables. It is entirely possible that without girls in Venturing, it might have dropped even more and faster.

Since Venturing starts at 14 and cub scouts start much younger, I don't think one can draw any sort of logical extension based on the membership of either organization. They are too different.

You have not had to deal with parents of young teen boys upset that you were "bringing girls into scouting." You have not talked to parents of your son's friends who told you "my daughter is not camping with boys." You have had good scouters infuriated because your female youth might be sharing a 64 square-mile wilderness recreation area with their boys. Nor have you had to reconcile with leaders envious that your leadership wasn't fully devoted to their unisex program.

 

 

Of course not. This issue is too new. I am rather active in our Troop and I learned about it quite by accident. It is so new in fact that a single person - an adult leader that was at Jambo, is the only one to have even mentioned to me (favorably) when my daughter was at our most recent COH. No one else, to my knowledge, is even aware or is discussing such at the Troop, and we have 96 scouts in the Troop. I also have not spoke to parents that are excited about the idea. The issue has not been openly discussed in our Troop.

Anecdotal responses, both for and against, likely add little value to the discussion. They don't really inform.

A few posts back, you mention "regression analysis". A nice tool. I make my living off of people who can't do it. But, you are mistaken thinking that it is necessary to interpret data.

 

I don't think I suggested that. It is necessary to draw correlations when you have many variables. Trying to determine why membership may be growing or falling cannot be done by examining a single variable (co-ed). Someone trying to say that Venturing didn't grow with the inclusion of girls so BS won't grow with the inclusion of girls is using faulty logic. You can't make such conclusions without examining the other variables. Certainly you know this if such is your profession.

Then come back and tell me you don't have a one of them who would part ways over this. 

 

Again, I don't see how that is relevant. Just because one, or even many say that would quit doesn't mean we should not make a change. I am sure many scouts and parents said they would quit when we dropped our ban on blacks but it was the right thing to do. Not saying the issues are the same but just because I talk to a few people, just because I may end up with a tiny sample pool that isn't necessarily representative of the whole, why would you expect me to form an opinion based on that?

You are basically asking me to go out and create my own cognitive bias. Even if I went out and spoke to 20 scouts and 100% were in favor of the change, that would not be "data to counter [yours]" as it is nothing more than anecdotal and in no way representative. I should no more support this idea based on a tiny sample pool being in favor than a tiny sample pool being against. Reminds me of a quote I once read where a lady in a liberal city after an election stated, "I don't know a single person that voted but Bush, I don't know how he could have won." Her sample pool clearly was not representative.

 

For BSA to accept girls into packs and troops, it just doesn't need a majority of scouters to acquiesce, it needs existing and future scouters to enthusiastically endorse it. I see no evidence that we are there yet.

 

Complete agreement. But, we also don't have a lot of evidence to the contrary. To obtain that, BSA likely will need to do some actual pilot programs. Surveys of members won't really tell us what we need to know since, as you state, "future scouters" are a critical group in this analysis.

Two things:

1. We will clearly have some quitters over such a change. There will always be people less open to change, both for good or bad reasons. Just a fact of life. While we can probably do a decent job of studying the future behavior or our own members, there is little if anything we can do to study the future market without a few pilot programs to test it out.

2. This decision should not necessarily be all about membership growth. EVEN IF we were to determine that membership would grow, that in and of itself, should not be a reason for a change, just as if we determine that membership would shrink it should not necessarily be the reason not to change. I am sure that there are a number of actions and changes we could make that could increase membership but that doesn't mean that we should do them. BSA has a mission to better youth. We, the collective we, have to decide if that is going to include more girls than it currently does, what that would look like, and if it is worth WHATEVER impact, positive or negative, it has on membership trends.

sounds good on paper, and im sure they might even try it... but logistically, it won't work, lack of leaders, lack of charter org space, convience of having the boys and girls all go to the same troop meeting, instead of going to two separate meetings during the week to further the "family convenience" approach,  and when it doesn't work, they will go full on co-ed. 

 

Also, Cub Scouts is going to fall to the axe even earlier and be co-ed, so once that happens, it'll naturally give way to Boy Scouts as well.  

I don't understand your response. Are saying that it won't work due to a lack of leaders or space, yet you also state that instead of going to two separate meetings during the week it would add convenience.

Just what doesn't work logistically? I am really confused as to what you are trying to communicate. I currently take my daughter to GS events and my son to BS events. If they were coordinated in some manner, I would have MORE time to volunteer instead of less.

@@Gwaihir ... my understanding is that Boy Scout Troops would still be all boys and they are looking at alt programs or Troops that would be all girl. I would expect there would still be single gender options for boys in the BSA even if there are more options for girls.

This!

We have dens and patrols for a reason. My preference would be to keep the dens and patrols gender-based (within those chartering orgs that want such in the first place) and the troops (again those want coed) would then get together at a troop level to be coed.

Boys that want a boy-only experience could get that at either the den/patrol level or even at the troop level if they wish to belong to a chartering org that wishes to keep the existing restriction in place.

Well, that, and scouters like @@Stosh and @@Ankylus to be okay with it.

 

As important as our daughters are, seasoned scouters of large and small units across the nation are equally, if not more, relevant to the success of the BSA. If they don't buy in in overwhelming numbers, we must go for decades without the human resources BSA needs for success.

 

That's why venturing is floundering. Potential leaders, in spite of BSA's pitches, in spite of a cadre well trained young-adult females, do not see it worth their well to set aside life in unisex troops/packs to make outdoor programs for coed older youth flourish.

It need not be all or none. As someone recommended on another thread, let each chartering organization decide, just like they do today with sexual orientation.

If Stosh and Ankylus do not wish for their chartering organization to allow for girls, then I fully support their decision, but then allow me and mine to do as we wish with ours. Our decision and inclusion should in no way impact their decision and exclusion.

Perhaps Venturing is floundering for reasons other than gender. Perhaps it is floundering because their members are not part of the core program of BSA advancement. Perhaps it is floundering because the age at which the program starts is generally too late to recruit co-ed members when they are already actively involved in many other extra-curricular activities. Just a guess but I assume that very few boys join Boy Scouts at age 14 without having ever been in cub scouts. Why should we expect Venturing girls to be significantly different in that regard?

There are a multitude of reasons for Venturing to be struggling that have nothing to do with girls.

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

That's not what the congressional charter says.

The congressional charter also doesn't include Cub Scouts, or co-ed Venturing yet we have such. My assumption is that we are not bound by any specific wording of that document. From the Bylaws:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/bsa_charter_and_bylaws.pdf

ARTICLE VII. YOUTH MEMBERSHIP

Section 1.

Those eligible to participate in programs designed for youth and

young adults shall collectively be known as “youth program participants.â€

Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all

who meet the membership requirements. Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting,

and Varsity Scouting are for boys. Venturing is for young men and

young women. Those youth program participants who are at least

18 years of age and eligible to participate in programs designed for

youth shall be referred to as “adult program participants.â€

Section 2.

Both membership in Scouting and advancement and achievement

of leadership in Scouting units are open to all boys and,

where authorized, young women, without regard to race or ethnic

background, and advancement and achievement of leadership in

Scouting is based entirely upon individual merit.

---------------

Seems like all it would take is a change in the Bylaws to change the gender requirements.

Both the Gold Award and Eagle are promoted to E-3.

@@Hawkwin ... I think it depends on any changes made to BSA to attract female members. My troop 25 years ago had a few girls go with us to BWCA and they were like one of the guys. We acted pretty much the same and we canoed over 100 miles with them. my family just hit 4 generations of eagles and opinions vary by generation. My father is against it... reasoning isn't clear but best summed up that while a couple of girls may be ok opening it up would add many others that would destroy the program... and that it's nice to have a boys only club. I'm supportive if BSa doesn't change the program as mentioned above. My nephews are fully supportive, they are in venturing with girls. Note that they won't tell grandpa this as he will get pissed. It be interesting to see a poll based on age of the parent.. I wonder if the acceptance of girls increases with decreasing age. Not that means it's the right call... perhaps the older generations are more aware of what could be lost. One final point... if the change is made you can't go back.

Of course the devil is always in the details but as you indicated with your first hand experience that it can be successfully done. Venturing has demonstrated that it can be successfully done. 90%+ of the rest of the world's scouting organizations have proven that it came be done.

I don't see, and you don't offer any details, as to how it would be "destroyed" by allowing more. That simply does not logically follow. As long as the same standards are maintained, like they were for the first female Army Rangers, then we should be just fine.

As a member of that older generation, we are just less open to change. We are more wedded to tradition than younger generations, which is why your nephews likely have no problem with it but your grandfather does. Few of us can point to actual first hand experience as none of have had girls in cub or boy scouts before. Nearly all of us are operating from assumptions.

And the fear of the unknown drives a lot of it.

So, you want to decrease the quality of my sons' experience in scouting because GSA failed your daughter? Really, I am so tired of "girls in boy scouting" I could puke. And if you think "those people" are going to stop with just having girls join you're crazy. I'm out. It's been good knowing y'all.

Just what do you think, specifically, would be made worse with the inclusion of girls? The mission of BSA is "youth" not boys, after all.

My son is also a Boy Scout. I do not feel his experience would be made worse by the inclusion of girls.

I have no comment on celebrity front-persons or beer, but I sense no groundswell in favor of getting rid of merit badge sashes.  And where would the Scouts wear their merit badges?  I have seen photos of non-U.S. Scouts wearing rows and rows of MB's on their sleeves, but I think the sash looks better.

On the back of their shirt like girl scouts.

*runs and hides*

Does anyone know of a series of challenges or levels, kind of like advancement ranks, for developing teamwork and leadership? I'm thinking of something like start off easy with lead your patrol in a cheer and keep rising to the point of leading a district wide event.

 

Decades ago when I was in college, I worked with an organization in conjunction with my business fraternity that seemed to specialized in this stuff and it would probably fit very well with scouting. I've not looked at it since then so I can't speak to how it may be different now:

https://www.greenleaf.org/what-is-servant-leadership/

Servant leadership is a philosophy and set of practices that enriches the lives of individuals, builds better organizations and ultimately creates a more just and caring world.

You might consider giving them a call or sending them an email to see if they have a program that would help develop what you are looking for. Also, lot's of "crawl walk run" stuff on the web that you could perhaps adapt.

There's a subtle, but important difference between how GSUSA and BSA.

 

 

Totally correct.

My wife ran into one of the parents of the new troop last night - someone I had personally called to request information (she never returned my call - I had to email the district person in charge), and her comment to my wife was, "I am glad your daughter was accepted into the new troop." The clear implication was that she could have been turned away if the troop did not approve. Upon further discussion, my wife got the clear impression that the other parents were emailed and asked if they wanted her before we were extended an invite. Makes me think that my daughter could have easily been discriminated against for any number of reasons that would never have been disclosed.

As much as I want her to be active in GS, that is just a real ugly process and one wide open for abuse.

You have my vote for the metric system.

Ford was right, Reagan was wrong.