Hawkwin
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Posts posted by Hawkwin
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4 hours ago, gblotter said:
I am a traditionalist with conservative values.
Lately, Scouting has been all about breaking with tradition and embracing liberal norms on sexuality and gender.
The fact that BSA permits me to retain my own personal values does not change the fact that Scouting has changed in fundamental ways and is no longer the great fit it once was.
That is how Scouting walked away from me.
I get that, and I can sympathize.
That being stated, how do you differentiate between how Scouting has evolved in this capacity with how American society has evolved? You call them liberal norms on sexuality and gender but I think it might be safe these days to call them simply norms without any additional qualifiers of conservative or liberal. SCOTUS has ruled on gay marriage, and next year may rule on sexuality as a protected class (like race and gender) and even the military, including combat arms, is now accepting of gays and coeds. The fact that BSA doesn't make you conform to such should make it a refuge for you.
For those with "traditional conservative values," the non-compulsory environment of BSA seems to suggest that there is still a home for you in it - just like America is still a home for you despite the changing norms.
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16 hours ago, gblotter said:
Scouting walked away from me.
How?
All the recent membership decisions have been voluntary. No Troop has been required to accept membership of gays or girls.
Personally, Scouting is so much more to me than just sexual preference or gender.
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Pet store will be our solution, unfortunately. Likely starting this weekend.
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Is this event roughly the same date every year? This was to be our first year to participate but with the newly expanded Fall Break school schedule, we were out of town (hiking the AT) and could not easily coordinate such so we missed it.
If it is the same date every year, then I wonder if the change in school schedules might be impacting attendance a bit.
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1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
Or the Scouts are so fed up with adults taking over and overruling what they want that they say "WHATEVER." Man this is starting to sound like some of the stuff going on in my troop in the Helicopter parent thread.
Perhaps, but I don't get that sense from the OP. This might be a great learning opportunity for those scouts that are dropping out of the hike - an opportunity for them to show perseverance in the face of, what appears to be, parents that have simply not been well educated on how Boy Scouts is different than Cub Scouts.
A great opportunity for those scouts to perhaps learn how to politely and respectfully inform those parents as to how this particular hike functions best for the Troop. I am a parent of a 1st year scout so I can completely relate. It is a common occurrence for me to have to "cut the strings" for my Tenderfoot while at the same time, remind him to do things I wish he would already do on his own - both in and out of scouts.
If I didn't hike with him all the time already, I could see how I might feel the same way those moms do.
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4 hours ago, Tampa Turtle said:
Snips...
At that point there was a leap that Mom's could now be more welcome at the campouts as visitors. Three of them said that they wanted to go on the annual AT hike with their 11 to 13 year old sons and lobbied the Committee Chair that since the boys were young and the moms were fairly new hikers could they plan an easier trip for next summer. They were very excited. (I though "uh-oh")
When the news of this quietly spread later in the evening five of six of the most senior boys (most have 300 miles of backpacking) pulled their names from the sign up list. I overheard one saying "the adults are watering things down and making it too easy". ...
Wait, is this boy-lead or not? Why are those older boys letting some new moms run their program? The only "watering down" that is happening is the boys quitting in the face what appears to be some mild opposition and lack of education on the part of those new Boy Scout moms.
If this is a boy-lead organization, then the boys plan the hike and if there is a planned limit on the number of adults attending as well as an understanding as to how fast of a pace will be set, then so be it.
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Just now, TAHAWK said:
I read what you quote. While the language that you quote does mention females in Venturing, where in the "classes of membership" does it mention female Cubs, Webelos, or Boy Scouts? That would be nowhere. Instead, the language that you quote includes: "Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys."
If the language said "boys or girls" it would be void as contrary to the Charter, as, arguably, is the language about female Venturers. The last is not a result that I would favor, but it's not up to me. It will probably end up in the courts, which is unfortunate. Another inept move by National.
Tahawk, do you acknowledge that Venturing was not a part of BSA when this document was originally created?
If so, then do you also acknowledge that the document can be changed over the decades and centuries and that it has been changed to include coed Venturing as well as many other changes?
If so, then can you also acknowledge that simply because it does not state that "Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys and girls" currently, that the document could be changed to state that in the future?
I am confident that your interpretation that female Venturers voids the charter is incorrect as I am also confident that this document can be reworded to include girls in other scouting entities. Again, you are welcome to disagree and I encourage you to exhaust all the legal remedies at your disposal if you feel so strongly. My confident assumption is that if you had legal standing, such would have already been challenged with the inclusion of coed Venturing decades ago - either in the courts or via internal process to challenge changes to the Charter and Bylaws further up in this same document.
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13 minutes ago, David CO said:
I think it is time to rethink giving BSA an exclusive charter. There is no good reason why we shouldn't have more than one scout association in the U.S.. A little competition could be a good thing. It might make the execs think twice before making radical changes if scouts could switch associations like they can transfer to different units.
Is there any reason why a group of adults couldn't simply form a new organization with a different name?
Seems like there is already quite a bit of competition between various youth organizations.
Heck, there is even the Baden-Powell Service Association : https://www.bpsa-us.org/ (fair warning, they include girls).
Welcome to BPSA
The Baden-Powell Service Association offers a community-oriented traditional scouting program for youth and adults of all genders in the United States. There is no religious requirement and our groups are independent from sponsoring organizations. We offer the experience of scouting to anyone who wishes to join us.
We are not affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America or the Girl Scouts, USA or their governing scout associations. We are members of the World Federation of Independent Scouts (WFIS) and as such are not in competition with other American scouting associations; we are only their brothers and sisters in scouting.Traditional Program
Traditional scouting is a method that harkens back to the original principles and practices of Scouting's founder, Robert Baden-Powell. Our program and coursework are modeled after B-P's original texts, and our method is simple: we promote good citizenship, self-reliance, loyalty, and outdoor skills. Our focus is on empowering youth through hands-on practice in small groups, led by peer leadership.
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Once I bolded a section, everything else I typed would be bolded, even after I turned bold off again. I had to highlight the text when I was finished to unbold sections.
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2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:
Hawkwin, even assuming your interpretation of the words that you cite, which I absolutely reject, you seem to wish to set aside these words of the Bylaws that precede, both in position and in effect, the words that you quote:
I don't set them aside, I simply point out in the same document you quote, BSA eventfully defines the classes of membership. You are welcome to reject my interpretation but the document speaks for itself. If your quoted section prohibits girls in any capacity, then BSA would never have been legally allowed to have female Venturers.
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Quote
6. Under the supervision of your merit badge counselor, do THREE of the following:
a. Paint a wall or ceiling.
b. Repair or replace damaged tile, linoleum, or vinyl flooring.
c. Install drapery or curtain rods and then hang drapes or curtains.
d. Replace window blind cords.
e. Repair or replace a window sash cord.
f. Reinforce a picture frame.
g. Mend an object made of china, glass, or pottery.
Can you repeat any of the above or does each of the three have to be unique? I moved to a new home one year ago and we simply don't have anything that can be done on this list other than paint another wall or ceiling or reinforce another picture frame. Nothing is broken, nothing need be replaced, nothing mended. It could be years (hopefully) before we need to fix any of those. The MBC has stated that we are to do these on our own and just take pics of the project as proof that it has been done. My scout needs one more on this list to be completed. None of our local relatives need any work done either and we would like to avoid roaming the neighborhood looking for someone that needs b, c, d, e, or g.
I guess we could always break a piece of pottery and mend it but would also like to avoid that.
I doubt the final product will look quite as nice as the original. I also guess we could just go buy a cheap piece of pottery too if the answer to the above inquiry is "no."
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If the world changes, or at least the people in it, why are such things as the 10 Commandments, the Bible, Magna Carta, US Constitution, and such still around. Surely as quickly as we re-write history, we could accomplish the re-write of these documents overnight. So here's the Catch-22. which changed first, the people's attitudes or the ideals of these documents?
So here's the poser.... Is the BSA going downhill because it didn't change, or because it did?
Good question, and I think the answer is probably neither. When you and I were kids, there were only a few things that competed for our attention. For my scout son, there are probably 10 times as many things that compete for his attention. I don't honestly think there is anything BSA could do to retain the attention and the membership percentages it may have enjoyed decades ago.
Even when I think of sports, there was a single sport per season. You could play football in the fall, basketball in the winter/spring, and baseball in the summer. No soccer, no cross country, no wrestling, no hockey, etc. etc. My son is way more busy than I was at his age. Scouts have to find a way to fit into that in a manner that hopefully doesn't force a kid to pick between two things he loves.
When my son crossed over, we could pick between two local troops. One that meets on Sunday night (no conflicts with any extra-curricular activities) or one that meets on Tuesday nights (all sorts of conflicts). Every single scout in his Webelos den picked the troop that met on Sunday night - largely due to that convenience and lack of conflict. Every single scout the year prior made the same choice. I am sure that there are many lovely things about the other troop but Tuesday night meetings ruin it for them, and many parents have told them such.
Regarding your list of documents, all but the 10 Commandments (which is really a small part of a much larger book obviously), have all significantly changed over time. Take the Bible, from the first book the last, "rules and regulations" evolved. They evolved so much that now, many faiths largely ignore entire sections of the Old Testament - for right or wrong reasons. The Magna Carta has changed numerous times since its creation with many sections repealed due to their lack of modern day relevance. The Constitution of course has been amended 27 times.
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In this case, the Article and Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America specifically incorporate the federal Charter and declare that it is controlling over any- thing to the contrary published by anyone:
"General Clause
1. These Bylaws shall be consistent with the Charter. The Rules and Regulations shall be consistent with the Charter and the Bylaws. In the event of any conflicts or inconsistencies, the Charter shall govern primarily and the Bylaws secondarily.
Specifics
Clause 2. All statements contained in official publications of the Boy Scouts of America, its local councils and affiliates, including (but not limited to) handbooks, pamphlets, instructions, magazine articles, bulletins, manuals, and letters, which may, from time to time, be issued for clarification or explanation of official language shall be consistent with the language and intent of the Charter, the Bylaws, and the Rules and Regulations. Any contradictory or inconsistent language is unauthorized and without effect."
So not so "mere" in this case. If we read the Charter to have the plain meaning of its words, the "historic decision" of the Board of Directors is "unauthorized and without effect."
As for the effect of the program changes since 1916, that is another topic and one that that has already flamed its way through pages of posts.
You didn't read far enough.
ARTICLE VII. YOUTH MEMBERSHIP
Section 1. Those eligible to participate in programs designed for youth and young adults shall collectively be known as “youth program participants.†Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all who meet the membership requirements. Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, and Varsity Scouting are for boys. Venturing is for young men and young women. Those youth program participants who are at least 18 years of age and eligible to participate in programs designed for youth shall be referred to as “adult program participants.â€
Section 2. Both membership in Scouting and advancement and achievement of leadership in Scouting units are open to all boys and, where authorized, young women, without regard to race or ethnic background, and advancement and achievement of leadership in Scouting is based entirely upon individual merit.
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I expect, based on the result of the national vote, we will see Section 1 reworded appropriately.
But, anyone that feels strongly that they are in violation of Congressional statute certainly has legal remedies. There appear to be enough like-minded scouters that could pool their resources into a court challenge if they so desired. Probably a few attorneys that would even take the case pro bono.
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Strike #3. Son states that there are no reptiles or amphs kept as pets in his school either.
Pet store will end up being our next stop. I must have searched for about an hour trying to find a specimen on a webcam but no zoos, pet stores, or home cams could be found.
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I think BPs views were ensconced in the 19th century. He was born in 1857, after all.
Beat me to it.
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there isn’t a defense for boys needing male role models as bad as girls need female role models.
Barry
I get that there are probably quite a few single mothers that find benefit in this feature, but I don't see any specific reference to that being a state goal of BSA. There is one section that I can find that states, "Scout leaders can be positive role models..." but it doesn't state male role models, and I imagine that text was written after the inclusion of female leaders in scouts (an admitted guess on my part).
That being stated, I fail to see how the inclusion of girls in any way limits a boy for access to male leaders in scouts.
Can you illustrate why the inclusion of girls means that boys no longer have access to male role models in scouts?
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Through out my life when I have been in all boy groups or all men groups, there was a feeling of teamwork, a relaxed state were you knew the guys had your back, there was a high level of trust and focus on the task at hand.
When you threw in a girl or woman the dynamic changed instantly, everyone's guard went up and we had to be careful what we did, what we said, what might be inferred, everyone was walking on egg shells at that point.
I have worked with women the majority of my life and I can't say that I share any of your experiences. Even when I moved from an all-male active duty infantry unit to a co-ed reserve Civil Affairs unit, nothing like you stated happened.
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With all due respect to BP, I care as much about his opinion on the inclusion of girls in BSA as I do about the Founding Fathers opinion on women being able to vote.
That doesn't mean I condemn either based on modern morality, but it also doesn't mean that I think we should be wedded to or stuck with 19th century thinking.
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Still working on this but I wanted to thank everyone for their ideas so far.
We struck out on the local nature center allowing free admission. Also struck out on any known friends with a pet. Latest attempt is to see if there are any amphs or reptiles in the school that are kept as pets. If that does not work, the pet store will likely be the next stop.
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2. Start the requirement on Feb 1. Complete it the day before March 1.
Ha! Now that is a novel work-around!
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Perhaps answers to most of our questions. Note, I've not listed to this yet nor read the transcript. I will comment once I have.
BSA Chief answers your questions about welcoming girls into BSA programs
Snip:
On Oct. 30, I asked Scouters to submit their questions for BSA Chief Scout Executive Mike Surbaugh. By the time we recorded the video last week, we had received more than 400 questions.
I read each one, organized them by topic and took a representative sample of 22 questions directly to our Chief. He spoke openly and candidly for nearly 30 minutes.
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We just upped our dues because of a lack of participation in the troop-level fundraising events. Popcorn sales go entire to the individual scout accounts which can be used to pay for dues but if the scout does no fundraising, We also changed our troop-level fundraising events to be scout specific in the future (all money to the scout accounts). it was determined that those that don't participate in fundraising should bare the full cost of membership instead the scouts that participate in fundraising subsidizing such.
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Are there any nature centers in your area that have animals on exhibit that do not have admission fees? Or, could you ask a zoo or nature center for special permission for the Scout to visit for his badge?
None that are local. I'd like to avoid adding more work for me, the parent, by having to drive them back and forth twelve times to such a facility. The zoo is about a 25 minute trip, one way. The nearest nature center is primarily an Ornithology center but I think they do have a few frogs and turtles. I will call them today and ask if there is a way to get a free pass for such a visit ($12 per car otherwise).
When my oldest did this badge this summer, we had an interesting time -- first, he had one of these little african frogs that we've had forever as a pet -- they live a long time. They're tiny and cheap and easy to maintain. That's what he did his log with.
Then, I came across a painted turtle that was crossing the road, just as he was starting his badge work. We grabbed it, brought it home, and got a 55 gallon aquarium for it from Craigslist. (this was somewhat expensive. we got it sand and rocks and a heat lamp.) We observed it for about two weeks and then one of the boys took it out to our front ditch for it to have an outing, and after a few minutes unattended, it had made a great escape. It was very fun observing this turtle, but it was good that the turtle went back to the wild.
You could also borrow a friend's pet if you know someone who would be agreeable.
Also possible, but also as the parent, I would like to avoid having another pet in the house - and one for which I would likely end up being the one that feeds it and keeps it alive.
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One could always catch a wild frog for the observation part of this requirement and then after 30 days, it becomes a "pet" and can't be released back into the wild according to state law. Well then, they could always just feed it to their pet snake and everyone's happy. Right?
That assumes one has a pet snake.
If you don't want a reptile or an amphib for a pet, then this "study" becomes rather difficult.
LDS leaving BSA?
in Issues & Politics
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