Hawkwin

On 12/28/2017 at 12:13 AM, SSF said:

To summarize the Star Wars issue, for those unfamiliar, there's been an extreme backlash from a large number of fans and movie goers who are nothing short of disgusted with the movie's story, direction, tone and political and social innuendos made in the movie; i.e. women are great at everything, men are less capable and need female leadership, capitalism is bad, white men and wealthy people are evil.

Spoilers follow.

Having just watched it this weekend, I can't see where anyone can leave the theater with the idea that there was some sort of feminist agenda. Also, it wasn't that capitalism is bad, it was that war profiteering was bad.

As far as female leadership, (spoilers follow), Leia almost died, the other female general did die, and the female tech almost died. In the end, Luke sacrificed himself to allow everyone escape.

This was the best Star Wars movie since The Empire Strikes Back.

48 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Is it "doing the work" or "doing the work in a WOSM affiliated organization?" 

Doing the work in an affiliated organization. In other words, if under the rules, we would accept that same work from a Canadian resident in Scouts Canada (boy or girl), then we should accept Ms. Ireland's work under the same standard. We have a policy in place to do exactly that - allow credit in BSA for work completed in Scouts Canada.

We should not discriminate against her simply because she is an American and we lacked the foresight to write a policy that would accommodate a scout (male at the time the policy was written) that joined a foreign organization but was a US citizen.

To do otherwise is to allow Canadian boys and girls the privilege credit for their work completed while excluding US citizens - and I can't see how we advance the Oath or Law with such a restriction.

No special provisions or reducing the age requirements, just grant her the same thing we would grant any other transfer from Scouts Canada, no more and no less.

29 minutes ago, ZScout5 said:

BSA has just made available blue cub skorts for girls.

http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/items/skort-cs-6-12.html#.Wk-Hd3VMHqA

 

How do I down vote your link and not your post!!!!

Terrible idea. I'll never buy one.

If this is any indication of what GIBSA will look like, I might change my mind.

I just spoke to my SDE and he is having a meeting tonight to iron out the logistics of the changes. I am expecting a call or email from him by this time next week with our local plans.

In my area, there are no girl wrestling teams. If you are female and want to wrestle, you wrestle the boys (or any other girls that wrestle). My daughter did it for one year but did not go back last year. There are a handful of girls that do it at various grades including high school and more and more colleges are starting to develop teams (and of course USA had a gold medalist in the Olympics!). No standards have been reduced to allow for girls to participate in a coed environment - but I am not sure that such experience is really comparable as there really isn't the same social dynamics.

I never saw a boy hesitate in taking her down or by treating her any differently - and she of course had to do all the same stuff that the boys did. I am hopeful that she will go back at some point and that she will help create enough demand to create girl weight divisions.

12 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

It's also funny, we both said "life isn't fair" but it leads us to two different conclusions.

Actually "life isn't fair" was also my initial response on this subject as a reason to deny her request:

Once I learned that she was an active scout in Canada, I changed my opinion as it pertains to her case. Either way, I think "life isn't fair" is still a good lesson for all parties.

5 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

What do we say to a girl in, let's say, rural Texas, exactly the same age, who under no circumstances is going to be able to go to London, Ontario on a regular basis?

Life isn't fair.

The same thing we would say to any other scout that lacked the financial means or the forethought to join another organization. For all I know, Canadian scouts has a lone scout program that would have accepted that girl (or boy) in rural Texas. Maybe there is a UK scout program that would do the same. Don't fault Ireland for doing everything she could to be active in Scouts. Fault those that didn't think outside the box enough to do the same. In the end, if we don't discriminate against the Canadian for living in Canada, then what do we gain for discriminating against the American for living in America?

In general, those individuals that are committed to success will look for ways to find it. When I was on active duty in the Army, I maxed out my "promotion points" by taking every correspondence course I could find, even those that had nothing to do with my job, or even the Army (I took a few Marine correspondence courses for credit). My promotion board could have said, "well, it wasn't fair that other soldiers didn't know about or find out about all the ways to earn promotion points so we are taking yours away," but they didn't.

Change nothing about the name.

The girls that are Brave will join without any concerns over the name and those that don't because of the name -- then maybe BSA isn't for them after all.

My daughter wants to be, and I want her to be, a Boy Scout.

Hawkwin

Who is trying to raise a future girl Ranger, or future girl POTUS, or a future girl CEO, or a future girl fighter pilot, or a girl scientist, or a future girl astronaut...

And a future Boy Scout.

11 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think it is appropriate to make a distinction between a youth who actually lives in another country and a U.S. resident who is able to participate in a program in another country. 

Why?

Seriously, what part of the Oath and Law do we serve by such a restriction? Don't get me wrong, I am a big "rule follower" and if BSA wants to stand firm with no quibble, then I will fully support that decision. I will also support a decision that would allow for the spirit of the rules ("Do Your Best") - that someone that has completed qualifying work in another affiliated BSA organization is allowed to apply said work to BSA, regardless of their physical address at the time the work was completed.

Let's go back 10 years before all the membership changes. For the sake of the argument, if a male scout that lived on the border, but in the United States, decided to participate in Canadian scouts because there was no local troop option in the United States and wished to apply that work to BSA when a local troop option became available, I don't there would be many objections. I of course an open to being wrong on that belief but I think many scouters would say that the spirit of the rules apply. We had a scout that wanted to be part of BSA but could not so they joined Canadian Scouts but switched to BSA at the earliest opportunity. We would fall all over ourselves to try and welcome that scout - especially if that scout was largely responsible for the creation of that local option.

That is not dissimilar from the situation in which Ms. Ireland finds herself. She had no local option in the United States so she joined a foreign troop.

Now that one will be available, she wishes to apply any qualifying experience - the same experience we may allow from any of her Canadian peers that live in London Ontario, to BSA.

It seems exceptionally odd to me that we would willingly chose to discriminate against her, not because of her gender in this case, but because her nationality is American. Pardon the pun but that seems exceptionally un-American to me.

And as far as her family wealth and opportunities, I don't know her and her family and I see no reason to speculate or make judgments for her or against her on that point. We all have advantages and disadvantages based on a nearly infinite number of factors.

19 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

This decision has been controversial enough without adding in exceptions to the advancement requirements for young women who are "too old"

 You appear to be conflating two different issues. I WOULD NOT approve or support any changes to the age requirements. This does not appear to be an issue of being too old to complete the requirements. This is an issue of whether or not we will accept work completed by an American in a foreign troop.

I would/will share your opinion if: 1. Her work is found to be insufficient to what we would honor from any other Canadian scout or 2. If she had not been a registered member of a foreign BSA affiliate.

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 6:29 AM, scoutldr said:

you can't do that without "serving time".  

I think the point is that she potentially has "served her time" as a leader in the Canadian Boy Scouts. BSA already has a policy that would allow a scout living in Canada to apply what they already accomplished to the path of Eagle.

That makes this more a question of whether her time served will be disqualified because she lived in the US or if it will be accepted under the spirit of the rules (as I see them).

10 hours ago, WRW_57 said:

When did the MB U phenomena start?  Who is driving this corner-cutting: national, council or misguided parents? My Webelos  son will be in a troop in about 14 months and it would benefit to more about this.

In the beginning, there were only 57 Merit Badges. Now we have over 130.

More scouts earn Eagle in a month than have ever completed all Merit Badges in the last century. It is a BIG DEAL when someone does it, so big that it makes national scouting news. When is the last time someone making Eagle was national scouting news?

I don't blame scouts (or those that serve them) for responding to the incentives. If we want to reduce the MBU environment, then we need to change the MB program. The "club" of those that have done them all is more exclusive than being an Eagle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_merit_badges_(Boy_Scouts_of_America

21 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Agree, it does sound like Wood Badge training problems.

What I have seen with female troop leaders is a tendency to focus on specific program areas - scoutcraft, nature, hiking . Maybe advancement related, maybe just sticking with what they know.  Fishing, shooting sports not so much.

I just saw my first "Wood Badge Ceremony" a couple of weeks ago. Just so happened it was a female troop leader they were celebrating. Was a pretty cool skit they performed.

I would think all troop leaders have a tendency to focus on what they may know. These days, some of equipment-intensive outdoor skills (shooting, fishing, etc.) are probably less common in scout dads (specifically those without scouting experience) too. Off the top of my head, I can only think of four scout dads (including me) in my son's patrol that hunt, have hunted, or otherwise have moderate to significant exposure to shooting. Only one of them is currently a volunteer.

2 hours ago, Cubber said:

does the committee chair have the right to direct us to transition to a particular troop

No.

At the end of the day, each individual scout picks his own troop.

13 hours ago, numbersnerd said:

 Documentation for this and other rumors, err, rules is located where?

Common courtesy would suggest that one should not call themselves a moderator if they are not such. If the mods need to put that rule in writing, then I guess we will soon see a "sticky" stating such.

Impersonating a mod has been an offense that often results in the offender being banned for probably as long as message boards have been around. I can recall such since at least the mid 90s.

14 hours ago, Stosh said:

This is clearly pointed out by the negative arrow for making a perfectly acceptable, according to the rule, statement that offended someone i.e. a different moderator. 

The "negative arrow" would seem to be perfectly acceptable as well since it is an intentional design of this forum; and anyone can use the "negative arrow" not just mods.

34 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Guide to Advancement section 5.0.4.0 Covers "Youth From Other Countries"

Thanks, I assumed there would be a rule on such.

Seems like there is a good process for such a request, the hiccup of course will be,

Quote

 

Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here, may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement.

 

There really isn't a policy for scouts who reside in the United States but who are Scouts in another country. That being stated, it would appear that the spirit of the rule still applies in that BSA wishes to honor and recognize achievement (excluding Eagle) of current scouts where they participated and in and acquired advancement in foreign scouting.

If she had not being actively involved in Canadian Scouts (or whatever they call themselves), then a firm "no" would seem to apply. Since she has done everything a male scout from Canada has done and since we would likely recognize his achievements, then it stands to reason we could, and probably should, do the same for her.

2 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Sydney takes scouting and the skills involved so seriously that she has sought membership in troops outside the U.S. She is a full, dues-paying member of a troop in Ontario, Canada — one of dozens of countries with co-ed scouting. In fact, Sydney recently earned the Chief Scout's Award, Canada's highest honor in scouting, and has the badge and a letter of congratulations from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to show for it.

But she is determined to become an Eagle Scout as a full member of Troop 414, reaching the top achievement of an organization she has been part of nearly her entire life.

Based on this, then I can certainly see a way for BSA to allow for "transfer credits" (and they might already do this) for any Scout that earned "stuff" outside of the United States but still within Scouting to obtain Eagle.

For example, if she has satisfied the exact same leadership requirements in Canadian Scouts, then there is no reason IMO that she need duplicate them in BSA.

I would assume that we would extend the same courtesy to a male scout that currently lives in England but that transfers to the United States at 16. Credit for requirements already accomplished.

Such doesn't cheapen what anyone else had to do.

Hawkwin

Who received quite a bit of transfer college credit for his military service - cutting over a year from his degree.

1 hour ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Awarding this girl an Eagle is also not fair to the families who wanted girls to become Eagles but were waiting for the doors to finally open.

A potential lesson for either Ireland, or if she does get special treatment, anyone else that is excluded.

Life isn't fair.

While I would like to see her given the chance to get Eagle, I think both her and the family would show an incredible amount of maturity if they simply said that Ireland helping other girls obtain the chance to get such is "Eagle enough."

The irony...

I went looking for our latest version of Scouting Magazine to see what is so bad about it. It is 9 PM so everyone is in their bed reading and on their way to sleep.

I asked my son and he said they were in the library. On my way to the library I passed by my daughter's room and I peaked in only to see her with a stack of Boys Life Magazines in her bed. She was reading an issue from September 2015 about

weird scientific discoveries:

I laughed and told her to turn off the light but she told me that she had two more issues to read first.

I gave up my search for the latest issue of Scouting Mag after that.

36 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Lately Scouting Magazine feels like Pravda

Wow, Scouting Magazine compared to the newspaper of the Communist party of Russia? Tell us how you really feel about BSA National.

1 hour ago, Stosh said:

Probably for the same reason those in the Middle East can't pull it off for thousands of years.  And the same reason the Christians can't pull it off for hundreds of years.  And the same reason political empires come and go on a regular basis.  And the same reason why maps of the world change before the ink dries.

It's called human nature and everyone feels more comfortable around like-minded/value people.  People go where they feel comfortable.

America has been a melting pot (or perhaps more accurately, beef stew - sort of like BSA now), for centuries with far more diverse opinions, cultures, and norms than BSA. Certainly we, people that follow the Oath and the Law, can learn to "feel comfortable" with the idea that another Troop might have different members than our own - especially when we consider the fact that most if not all non-religious employers are even more accepting of diverse cultures and norms than BSA.

Heck, my employer accepts cross-dressers (not that I have ever seen one in my workplace), doesn't mean I am going to quit my job. Also, as I eluded to in another thread, I am a vet. My old Parachute Infantry Regiment now accepts both gay and female soldiers. I would not avoid service to my country based on such - duty is more important than what objections I might have on their inclusion. I would hope Scouts who follow the Oath still feel a duty their country even when their country might do something that is not 100% to their approval. That is kind of what makes duty and being Brave relevant. If it was easy, we would not need an Oath or Law for it.

15 hours ago, gblotter said:

You have been very patient in making your arguments. Your kindness shows through.

Thank you. I'd rather not lose folks like you over the inclusion of my daughter so it is important to me that we respect your opinion as much as people that may share mine. What BSA teaches and brings to youth is far more important than any disagreement we may have over the membership changes and I'd rather have you in BSA with your disagreement (and allowed to remain "traditional") than have you leave it due to compulsory changes in values.

15 hours ago, gblotter said:

Scouting used to be my parenting partner because it shared my values and reinforced what my children learn at home and at church. Now it is an organization with different values that merely tolerates what my children learn at home and at church. Gone is the BSA marketing slogan "Timeless Values". BSA no longer takes a leadership position with values

Is your Troop chartered by your church? If so, has your Troop experience changed?

I ask because I know some of the local Troops chartered by churches (my Troop is church-chartered) that have not changed under the new membership rules at all (and that may include mine, I have not asked). I would think that in those cases, the Troop and your church still reinforces those same values. I hope your Troop experience doesn't leave you feeling just tolerated. Is it possible that you are projecting something not really being experienced?

Probably 95% or more of scouting is local; Patrol and Troop level. What BSA does in another council, and much less another state, has no direct impact on my Scout. If another council started letting adults in their 30s get their Eagle, it would not have a direct impact on the values my Troop teaches.

16 hours ago, gblotter said:

This past summer he attended two different BSA camps in addition to National Jamboree (we barely saw him at all during the summer). In 2018 he will be attending Camp Emerald Bay on Catalina Island and Camp Meriwether in Oregon. He drinks Scouting from a fire hose and makes my Scoutmaster buttons burst with pride. But with all these changes, it feels like my son is catching the last train out of the station (and even he realizes that 2018 will be a triumphant last hurrah). So many adventures, so many memories - so much fun. It has been an incredible ride.

I hope to share in your experience one day! My son went to the Jambo on a road trip (too young to go to camp there) and loved it. We both can't want until he is old enough to do the High Adventure stuff.

16 hours ago, gblotter said:

They want a different kind of Scouting that appeals to different kinds of families and different kinds of Scouts and different kinds of Scouters.

I don't agree with this. They want the same kind of Scouting that appeals to the same kinds of families as they always have. This is evidenced by the fact of the greater focus and requirements as it pertains to faith. This is also evidenced by the fact that they are not forcing any membership changes on people that want to keep things just the way they were a decade ago.

 They also want to make scouting more available to those families where their faith doesn't object to sexual orientation or gender.

Why can't BSA be both? Traditional to you and yours and modified for others?

23 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Well, you better find some moms too

Already have those. My son's previous Den leader is an active volunteer active in the Boy Scout troop as well as the mom of a fellow scout with an older daughter (no idea of her interest in Boy Scouts). Our Pack Committee Chair (female) also is an active volunteer in the current Troop.

I estimate that we have at least six active female adult leaders in our current Troop. Though, I have no idea how interested any of them would be in taking on addition duties in leading a girls Troop. I certainly want to avoid cannibalizing the existing Troop of leaders.

My troop is likely very atypical. We have roughly 100 scouts with many adult leaders, both female and male. The only shortage we sometimes experience is additional drivers for camping and events.

All that being stated, I have no idea yet even if our CO would sponsor a girls Troop so our excitement for such is perhaps unwarranted.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

It is one thing to be asked not to throw stones. It's another to be asked to kiss the ring. They may not slap the hand. But they will withdrawal and occupy themselves elsewhere.

I am sorry but I don't understand your metaphor.

Also, who withdrew their support of what? You quoted my comment about how many religious faiths now accept non-hetero relationships. Are you suggesting that the members of those faiths "withdrew their support?" Certainly is possible and I would have no idea on that point.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

So, the question becomes, who is BSA's new market? And, are they buying?

Obviously too soon to say if they are buying but I know at least a small part of their new market, and it is me and my GS daughter and every other younger sibling girl of my son's Patrol. There are three of us that have younger daughters (two of which are currently in GS) of Cub Scout and soon to be Boy Scout age. I have spoken to the other two fathers and all three of us, and our daughters, are looking forward to joining BSA. No idea as of yet if our CO (or another local CO) will be supporting such.

14 hours ago, Stosh said:

 

5.0.3.0 Lone Scouting

 

Last I read (about 2 years ago), only about a third of all councils support Lone Scouts. If you are in a council area that does not support it, then you must join a Pack or Troop to be a scout.

If that has changed, please let me know.