HashTagScouts

2 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

Friends, it's looking very, very bad. I have a complete lack of trust in National right now. I'll see if I can somehow get the link to the town hall last night. 

Please share.  I'd love to be on these things.  Maybe it's just the Covid-19 hangover, but this is like the high drama spectacle to see right now I think! 

21 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

I am an optimist and view things quite directly and simply.  There are very lengthy and detailed discussions about the addition of female members and the concept of "Family Scouting" that anyone on this site can go back and read.  I carefully followed the debate and read the surveys that were widely distributed back then and was convinced that admitting siblings who were girls into separate Troops was the right way to go.  I'm not going to go back and re-discuss that content, other than to say it was very convincing and made common sense.

The Family Scouting policy did not change one word in either the Scout Handbook or the Scoutmaster's Handbook.  They just changed pictures to include girls.  So, I am just following the identical program we always did with 32 girls, a 9-member Scoutmaster staff, a 10-member Troop Committee and an amazingly supportive CO.  The Family Scouting policy did not change human nature though.  The hovering parents we have always had have simply continued their same behaviors.  The only difference I have experienced is that girl members are a lot better at telling their parents to not become over-involved.  I'm happy to accept that you have experienced an excessive number of hovering parents in your Troops, because those personalities have always existed around Troops and must always be dealt with by Scoutmaster Staffs -- or they will over-run the sensible operation and program experience of our youth members.

What I do not accept is that there is some explosion of additional numbers of hover parents because we now have multiple siblings of different sexes in separate Scouts BSA Troops.  That is not my experience or the experience of the of the leaders of other Troops in our districts that are Family Scouting.  Scout leaders who don't address the situation will experience negative results.  It is that simple.  It is not a problem in our Troop because in the four instances that arose, we dealt with it effectively.  

Policies that allow parents of Scouts to camp at the same location as their Scout is really a different issue.  This is not Family Scouting, it is the Family Camping policy of the BSA we are speaking of.  In our Troop, we do not allow it.  It is easy to enforce because everyone must be a registered member to attend a campout.  We also make it very clear that we don't want parents to come on weekend campouts in order to allow the girls to gain confidence.  A Scoutmaster who allows excessive numbers of parents to camp on weekend campouts is asking for the trouble you relate.  What we do allow if for any parent who wants to camp with us to do so in September.  We do that under the Family Camping rules.  But that is it.

I would be happy to have families of our scouts camp elsewhere on our camp properties as long as they do not show up at our camp until Sunday pick-up time.  This has been successfully engaged in at the Owasippe Scout Reservation since 1957.  Here is a link to the family camp, which also operates in the summer and has a special program offered directly to the families:  https://www.owasippeadventure.com/blackhawk-1-1   The Owasippe family camp has been so successful through the years that it was the model followed by Philmont when they designed the family camp there.  In fact, if we hold on to the bases, there will be family camps at the other bases in the future.

If you have a different view of Family Scouting or the Family Camping policies and wish to see them handled differently or even repealed in the post-bankruptcy phase, I invite you to directly address that issue in a posting.

I'm appreciative of how it is working for you.  And, that is how we handle it as well.  The big problem is just the use of the term Family Scouting.  Drop the 'Family'- it is just Scouting, and that moniker just seems to have invited a bit of the ignoring the second word in the two phrases for a few in the past year from what I have heard from other unit leaders in my district.

42 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I don't think anybody said it had to do with girl troops any more than boy troops. Now I feel like you're trying to paint me and others here as unenlightened reactionaries, which I do not appreciate. I do appreciate the information you are providing from the meetings, and I am trying my absolute best to not shoot the messenger. 

@Eagledad @Eagle94-A1, @InquisitiveScouter and I have all told you of similar situations that we have personally experienced. Your inability to believe it has no bearing on whether it is true or not. 

Many of these Scout leaders you describe as "weak willed" are members here or members here served with those Scoutmasters, and that was an exceeding poor choice of words. I'm glad you have parents that are cooperative with your troops programs. 

"This is what the next generation of Scouters want." Since you aren't offering any actual data to support your claim, I suppose we could start an exceedingly flawed survey on this forum and find out what this subsection of Scouters want. If it was invite only, I could skew it to say whatever I'd want it to say. Especially if I don't need to publish my data, only the results. I've created organizational surveys as part of my job. Statistics/ statistical analysis is part of my professional career. But you are correct, this forum tends to be older, it's not a representative sample of what future parents would want. 

There's also a delicious level of irony here, because I can guarantee you, I'm younger than you. I am the next generation of Scouters, unless the BSA destroys what makes this program worth having youth participate in. There are small handful of other youth and young adult scouters here, and I have a pretty good guess what their opinions are. 

I will concur with you.

Here is the real problem of the narrative to me- Boy Scouts (Scouts BSA) is about the youth running things, so what the parents want is not the opinion that should be the main opinion.  

While you would never get 100% response on any survey, you still should be asking them, as THEY are the customer, not mom and dads checkbook.  if it means a smaller organization sticking to the core fundamental of youth led, for me, so be it. 

42 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Agreed. Lets rip the bandaid off. We need to put these cases behind us for good, and protect the CO's from potential liability. I hope my council participates in the settlement. Ideally try to keep local camp properties if the council can afford them. I'd be sad to see us lose the HA bases, but they aren't the meat and potatoes like summer camp is. 

I share @MattRs concern. The program has always been about character building and citizenship development. Camping and outdoor fun is important because it (along with the patrol method) is how we accomplish these bigger goals. 

If Scouting becomes a purely camping club, particularly a family camping club, I have no need to participate. Even if I have kids, I could do cheaper, more robust, less restrictive outdoor activities with them than I can with the Scouts. No juggling other peoples calendars, no sending money to Irving.

And you can bring your kids and their friends - with parental permission - without having to have another adult and trying to stick to adhere to guidelines that are arcane, insipid, or just downright foolish.

21 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

I just got off the Central Region business meeting (via Zoom).  There is nothing new to share.  The Region elected another slate of Regional and Area officers, but the Region President (volunteer) stated that this would be adjusted when a new structure is announced.  Most of the time was taken by awarding the Silver Antelopes and Silver Buffalos for our Region, but there were plenty of references to the information shared yesterday during the general session.  I encourage everyone to watch the National Council business meeting at 4-5 (eastern) on Friday.   

PLEASE share that link with me

I don't know why there is some presumptive notion within their statement that when two (or more) units get together, "competition" is the basis for doing so.  Two units can't just get together on an event for fellowship, or because it is more cost friendly to share expenses? Yikes. 

I'm hopeful that with ending "youth" at 18 and declaring all of those over 18 "adults" may give a glimmer of hope that we can go back to treating those 18-20 year olds as adults! Stop making them some middling group that are not quite adults that matter.

Mayflower Council will be going ahead with resident camp (consolidating from the two camps to just Camp Squanto), pushing out 2 weeks per MA timelines, limits on 250 campers per week, and will result in being 5 weeks versus 6.  Our Governor wants summer camps to operate, with some guidelines still being worked out to do so in a safer manner.  Health screening at drop off, likely staggered drop-off/pick-up, all unit leaders and scouts must remain at camp (no in and out), no visitors. Dining hall will operate, but no self-serve (including salad bar) with physical distancing- Squanto has two large outdoor covered seating areas, plus additional picnic tables in the pine grove, so it is feasible.  Details on program changes vague in the announcement, but the scuttlebutt is already started that it will be cohort type program, meaning the whole unit (or patrols for larger units) likely goes to a program area together, or in some cases program staff will come to the campsite. 

https://www.mayflowerbsa.org/camp-resolute-camp-squanto-summer-camp-update/

My statement to parents, whether the unit goes forward with attending Council camp or we do our own extended outing later in the summer, the parents must make the call on whether or not to send their child.  Camp/we intend to do what we can to mitigate risks, but if the parent has any hesitations, it is their call on assuming risk of sending their child.  No one is saying it is 100% safe.  Attendance is not mandatory, it is at will.

19 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I find it interesting that no one is publishing their plans for what happens if someone becomes symptomatic and/or tests positive while at the camp.

What happens if Johnny scout spikes a fever on Wednesday?  What if he spikes a fever and starts coughing?  Is there testing available?  What kind of test is it, the kind that is readable that day or the kind that takes a three day turn around?  Does his troop all go home?  Do they go home in individual or all together packed six to a car?  What about the staff members who were in direct contact with him?  Who goes into two week quarantine, where do they do that?

The strength of a plan is not what happens if everything goes well, but rather what happens when things start going wrong.

Ultimately, this echoes my concerns with the BSA trying to run the HABs.  Physical distancing needs to be maintained- that means carpools are out the window.  You can't physically distance with 5 people in a 5 passenger vehicle, and Everyone is going to need to do shared transportation getting to a HAB.  our council seems to be thinking they are going to go ahead, on a pushed back start, for resident camp.  Their initial guidance is no where near complete or comprehensive, but the first item addresses that temperature checks will be conducted on arrival to everyone that arrives with the scout, and if anyone has a temperature of 100.4+, all individuals arriving in that vehicle will be barred from entering camp.

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Scouting will continue with or without National, Councils, or the BSA. 

While National became an uncommunicative legal and financial burden, local units remained trustworthy and thrifty.

While Councils responded to covid by closing offices and camps before the CDC and state health guidelines were released and attempting virtual quick delivery of the advancement and the outdoors, dedicated volunteers waited for those health guidelines and planned smaller, safer summer adventures. Smaller as in patrol or family hiking and camping - perhaps part of our new normal. Virtual did not deliver the program nor will it sustain membership come September for those units which have had no adventurous outdoor program for the past five months.  Rapid, easy advancement is no substitute for awesome, challenging adventure.

My advice to National, get your backpack together .

Am I the only one concerned of the potetential bad press that may come if a cluster outbreak gets attributed back to one of these programs at the HAB this summer? I can just imagine the story will be how poorly conceived it was on the part of the National BSA to move ahead with these, while the local Councils were calling off summer camps".  

7 hours ago, MattR said:

Just one, huh? This is kind of like eating potato chips.

Proposal #1: refocus every member (employees and volunteers) of the BSA to the core principles of scouting - having fun in the outdoors as a means to develop responsibility and good character.

Support #1: The program is the most critical aspect of scouting but it has been watered down because of a lack of focus. Rather, there seem to be silos in the BSA that are diluting the focus. There is advancement, popcorn, making money selling scout stuff, scouting-as-a-way-to-a-better-career, JTE, leave no trace, STEM and just a really bloated program that tries to be everything to everyone. This is expensive and has little appeal to young parents that have no history with scouting. By focusing on outdoors and responsibility the silo that should rise to the top should be developing scouts that the adults can trust to make their own decisions. That means improving patrol method and scout run programs. It means having more fun at summer camp and making it less like school. It means rewriting requirements so scouts are doing rather than talking about it. It means taking every aspect of scouting and checking it against the core program. If it's not supporting the basic program than consider chucking it. It's like cleaning your basement. Think of it as Start, Stop, Continue, only with focus on what makes scouting great.

Proposal #2: Change the hiring practices so external people can be hired into councils rather than only promoting from within.

Support #2: Newly hired DE's make very little money and consequently all those great scouts that were trained in the program tend to find jobs elsewhere, where the pay is better. Consequently, the vast majority of people working for the BSA have no experience as scouts. Not only that but there is a fair number that have no experience working for well run operations. This results in a lot of problems such as: Council execs that have no training in running non-profits and few people that understand how scouting should run. Most of the people I see working at the BSA are focused on one thing - making more money for the council or the BSA to pay for programs that have little to do with the core program.

Please note that proposal 2 is really just one instance of what proposal 1 is trying to address. The hiring model is not supporting the core program, so change it to match what every other non-profit uses.

Two VERY exceptional proposals that should absolutely be part of the org that comes out of the other side of bankruptcy.  I would only add in your first one, for emphasis, "let Learning for Life be Learning for Life, and let Scouting be Scouting.  It confuses the marketing of Scouting when Posts and Labs are suddenly considered part of the same program as Scouting in marketing materials, when they are not."  

47 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Would it be inappropriate for me to call out everyone in our leadership in a committee message reminding those that have YPT expiring in the next few months so I am not singling him out?  Even though he outta be singled out?   And I understand this is not the job of the CM, but I tend to find things that need to be done and do them.  Its my nature.

I wouldn't necessarily take it on your shoulders that everyone in the unit is up to date, but you can certainly make sure your DLs are all set, and then send it off as a report to the committee as a general statement for their next committee meeting (assuming they even have them) - "just making you aware" type of message.

Perhaps a structural decision will be increasing transparency on these types of meetings- why can there not be a link for the "general public" to view some sessions with microphone/chat turned off?

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Considering the economic and mental health need,  states' re-opening plans (coming May 15?) should include rapid covid-19 field test sites to support summer camp opening? Camp weeks might start on different days to shorten lines.

My $0.02,

 

 

Many parts of the US are still struggling to have enough supplies to continue testing on healthcare workers/first responders/high risk groups, and supply chain is going to take more time to ramp production.  and that is assuming we will continue to obtain materials from abroad to feed the supply chain.  I've heard it rumored that Spirit of Adventure Council has pulled the plug on summer camp- have you heard that directly from anyone in council?

Go to your COR/IH.  Committee Chair at the Pack level is the position they appoint, and cubmaster is appointed by them, so you are unfortunately not on equal footing here to deal with it yourself.  Not having valid YPT is not okay.

16 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

66%?  I suppose it's possible to believe 66% of the residents of NYC are liars is an explanation.  Another is that the stay at home orders are a farce.

As the article says, "mostly stayed at home". Take aside the nursing home folks, the imprisoned folks, and what you have left are the rest of us- those who are making weekly trips to the grocery store or the hardware store.  Again, the point of the stay-at-home was not that we wouldn't see a spread it was that we wouldn't see a massive swell that would overwhelm the health system.  Now, we should be slowly taking steps to begin to resume some activities.  Be smart, and not try and go 100 mph in a week.

I am all for building ourselves up to troop level in the longer term by starting with smaller group activities.  The biggest hurdle at this point is having a place to do it.  From what I am seeing around New England, state campgrounds are going to begin opening later in June, but with limitations- no group sites available, and no "gathering areas" open (playgrounds, observation areas, waterfronts, etc.).  Two minimal camping areas we have used in the past have not given any indication they will allow overnight usage at this point, though we are keeping in contact with them hoping in the second half of July they will allow them for single unit usage and we are planning for patrol level groups to use them.  I'm still waiting to see with many of the scout properties if summer camp is not doable, will they be allowing unit usage on a diminished capacity basis.  So far, my research is telling me that the few that have said anything about summer beyond "summer camp is not happening" have given some statement they hope to run weekend activities (no overnights, and with smaller numbers, by advanced signup only).  My son and another member of his Crew are planning some day trips for june, presuming our Council doesn't clamp down on Scouting activities beyond May.

Pine Tree Council (Maine) has cancelled resident camp at Camp Hinds and Bomazen.  Looks like they are going to offer some day activities on weekend dates starting in July to better mitigate risks.  I think the biggest hurdle that Maine camps have had to deal with is dining halls- both in terms of meals, and that they are also considered the safe-haven structure in case of severe weather (and if you can't use the dining hall for the later, then you really can't run camp).

25 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I agree, but I'm also thinking about the leadership in the state.  New Mexico's Governor is very aggressive. She is setting up roadblock around Gallup https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gallup-new-mexico-lockdown-sunday-governor-lujan-grisham/.  I would not be surprised if she shuts down Philmont.

Florida, on the other hand, well .. 

Oh, I know.  My dad is down there, and it is not a good situation.  Many old timers there think this is all a hoax, and continue to leave the house or get together with their friends.  Just waiting for the call that his whole 55+ community is ill.

26 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I know that is the current plan, but I would be shocked if it went through this summer.  While the curve has flattened (we are now linear growth), we haven't driving cases down.  I have a team in China  (not Wuhan) but when I discussed with them the USA's response their biggest shock is the travel we allow between locations.  That is a big way they limited the spread.  I think governors will realize this more and more and put a stop to locations that attract out of state visitors.  

It kills me as I think there is a risk that some of these high adventure bases may be sold off in Bankruptcy.  I also know it provides cash flow for BSA and many would lose out on a once in a lifetime experience.  I just think there is no way New Mexico or Minnesota will allow this to proceed.  Florida … perhaps and I have no idea about West Virginia.

Considering that most individuals are not driving from their home location to the HA bases, and are often going to fly, risk increased.  Dade County is one of the highest hit areas in Florida- I wouldn't fly through Miami right now, and I don't expect it to be flat there come July 1.  

3 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

The same for NJ, but I can’t see it feasible for a camp.

I'm sure it is one of many factors that are going into the decisions to cancel camp.  Social distancing is going to have to be a part of any camp operation at this point.  Large gatherings at campfires will need to be altered to allow spacing between individuals, frequent hand washing will be a necessity (I personally don't know of any camp that has hot water at every campsite, and I also am reticent to become the handwashing police), camp wide activities may need to be altered (like inter-troop relay races, OA call outs, etc.).

I also dread the parents who send their kid off to camp with one disposal-type mask that gets destroyed by sundown on day one.

7 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I really can’t imagine campers, or even staff, being forced to wear a mask for the entire day. Staff having to wear one every day for the entire summer will definitely ruin spirit and the camp experience. I don’t believe this would happen, if camps open.

Here in MA, facemasks are a state mandate whenever out in public, for anyone age over the age of 2.  The signal from the Gov is that will be with us through the summer, and possibly even into the school year.  I fully expect it will be a requirement for camps.

16 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Once again Cub Scouts because thats where am at now.  I am hearing talk of wiping down all the BB guns, bows, arrows, etc before each new group comes up.  I just don't see how that is possible.  Time wise and effectively.

I was just saying tonight that all the rumored adjustments we have to make for resident camp, I can't imagine what would need to be done at cub camp.  Hard sometimes keeping 13 year old from grabbing at and wrestling with each other- can't imagine how that goes with the younger kids.  And trying to get them to keep their masks on and not touch them/adjust them 20,000 times a day.

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

These are all great intent, but they will be executed by young staff, so it may or may not happen

The biggest challenge will be dining halls, for the larger camps it's a non-starter.  If you have 800 in camp (staff / leaders / Scouts) that is 2400 meals a day.  Assuming you cut your dining hall capacity by 1/2, which is optimistic, the camp will need to be serving cleaning in a minimum of 6 cycles daily which will be 8 to 9 hours of time needed and varying dinner times.  Maybe go all meal pickup and eat in sire

While needed, the elimination of campfires and and assemblies will really cut into the summer camp experience.  Also some merit badge classes will have to cut capacity significantly, adversely affecting program.  Not sure there is a good solution

I have questions on how well these camps are going to do getting enough supplies to do all this disinfecting and sanitizing, especially as most people can't get their hands on it right now.  Figure if you were doing meals in shifts, you really aren't accomplishing much if you don't add time in between to sanitize for the next group.

I spent a little time time today sifting through some of the requirements for typical summer MBs we see from our kids.  Either if we were to go through council camp or go off and run our own thing, there are some requirements I struggle with how you could do them in "social distancing".  First Aid for example, I'd so much rather things are hands on rather than lecture of "theoretical first aid", but I can't see having the kids pawing at tech other doing bandages and such.  Archery/rifle shooting a good instructor will try to lean in and help the kid who is struggling sighting their rifle- can't see that happening much right now.  Handicrafts, you really would need staff to watch everything like a hawk to wipe down the handsaw after one scout uses it and another picks it up.  My head started to swim at how many MBs would probably be partials versus completes.