HashTagScouts

My statement to parents, whether the unit goes forward with attending Council camp or we do our own extended outing later in the summer, the parents must make the call on whether or not to send their child.  Camp/we intend to do what we can to mitigate risks, but if the parent has any hesitations, it is their call on assuming risk of sending their child.  No one is saying it is 100% safe.  Attendance is not mandatory, it is at will.

19 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I find it interesting that no one is publishing their plans for what happens if someone becomes symptomatic and/or tests positive while at the camp.

What happens if Johnny scout spikes a fever on Wednesday?  What if he spikes a fever and starts coughing?  Is there testing available?  What kind of test is it, the kind that is readable that day or the kind that takes a three day turn around?  Does his troop all go home?  Do they go home in individual or all together packed six to a car?  What about the staff members who were in direct contact with him?  Who goes into two week quarantine, where do they do that?

The strength of a plan is not what happens if everything goes well, but rather what happens when things start going wrong.

Ultimately, this echoes my concerns with the BSA trying to run the HABs.  Physical distancing needs to be maintained- that means carpools are out the window.  You can't physically distance with 5 people in a 5 passenger vehicle, and Everyone is going to need to do shared transportation getting to a HAB.  our council seems to be thinking they are going to go ahead, on a pushed back start, for resident camp.  Their initial guidance is no where near complete or comprehensive, but the first item addresses that temperature checks will be conducted on arrival to everyone that arrives with the scout, and if anyone has a temperature of 100.4+, all individuals arriving in that vehicle will be barred from entering camp.

2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Scouting will continue with or without National, Councils, or the BSA. 

While National became an uncommunicative legal and financial burden, local units remained trustworthy and thrifty.

While Councils responded to covid by closing offices and camps before the CDC and state health guidelines were released and attempting virtual quick delivery of the advancement and the outdoors, dedicated volunteers waited for those health guidelines and planned smaller, safer summer adventures. Smaller as in patrol or family hiking and camping - perhaps part of our new normal. Virtual did not deliver the program nor will it sustain membership come September for those units which have had no adventurous outdoor program for the past five months.  Rapid, easy advancement is no substitute for awesome, challenging adventure.

My advice to National, get your backpack together .

Am I the only one concerned of the potetential bad press that may come if a cluster outbreak gets attributed back to one of these programs at the HAB this summer? I can just imagine the story will be how poorly conceived it was on the part of the National BSA to move ahead with these, while the local Councils were calling off summer camps".  

7 hours ago, MattR said:

Just one, huh? This is kind of like eating potato chips.

Proposal #1: refocus every member (employees and volunteers) of the BSA to the core principles of scouting - having fun in the outdoors as a means to develop responsibility and good character.

Support #1: The program is the most critical aspect of scouting but it has been watered down because of a lack of focus. Rather, there seem to be silos in the BSA that are diluting the focus. There is advancement, popcorn, making money selling scout stuff, scouting-as-a-way-to-a-better-career, JTE, leave no trace, STEM and just a really bloated program that tries to be everything to everyone. This is expensive and has little appeal to young parents that have no history with scouting. By focusing on outdoors and responsibility the silo that should rise to the top should be developing scouts that the adults can trust to make their own decisions. That means improving patrol method and scout run programs. It means having more fun at summer camp and making it less like school. It means rewriting requirements so scouts are doing rather than talking about it. It means taking every aspect of scouting and checking it against the core program. If it's not supporting the basic program than consider chucking it. It's like cleaning your basement. Think of it as Start, Stop, Continue, only with focus on what makes scouting great.

Proposal #2: Change the hiring practices so external people can be hired into councils rather than only promoting from within.

Support #2: Newly hired DE's make very little money and consequently all those great scouts that were trained in the program tend to find jobs elsewhere, where the pay is better. Consequently, the vast majority of people working for the BSA have no experience as scouts. Not only that but there is a fair number that have no experience working for well run operations. This results in a lot of problems such as: Council execs that have no training in running non-profits and few people that understand how scouting should run. Most of the people I see working at the BSA are focused on one thing - making more money for the council or the BSA to pay for programs that have little to do with the core program.

Please note that proposal 2 is really just one instance of what proposal 1 is trying to address. The hiring model is not supporting the core program, so change it to match what every other non-profit uses.

Two VERY exceptional proposals that should absolutely be part of the org that comes out of the other side of bankruptcy.  I would only add in your first one, for emphasis, "let Learning for Life be Learning for Life, and let Scouting be Scouting.  It confuses the marketing of Scouting when Posts and Labs are suddenly considered part of the same program as Scouting in marketing materials, when they are not."  

47 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Would it be inappropriate for me to call out everyone in our leadership in a committee message reminding those that have YPT expiring in the next few months so I am not singling him out?  Even though he outta be singled out?   And I understand this is not the job of the CM, but I tend to find things that need to be done and do them.  Its my nature.

I wouldn't necessarily take it on your shoulders that everyone in the unit is up to date, but you can certainly make sure your DLs are all set, and then send it off as a report to the committee as a general statement for their next committee meeting (assuming they even have them) - "just making you aware" type of message.

Perhaps a structural decision will be increasing transparency on these types of meetings- why can there not be a link for the "general public" to view some sessions with microphone/chat turned off?

3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Considering the economic and mental health need,  states' re-opening plans (coming May 15?) should include rapid covid-19 field test sites to support summer camp opening? Camp weeks might start on different days to shorten lines.

My $0.02,

 

 

Many parts of the US are still struggling to have enough supplies to continue testing on healthcare workers/first responders/high risk groups, and supply chain is going to take more time to ramp production.  and that is assuming we will continue to obtain materials from abroad to feed the supply chain.  I've heard it rumored that Spirit of Adventure Council has pulled the plug on summer camp- have you heard that directly from anyone in council?

Go to your COR/IH.  Committee Chair at the Pack level is the position they appoint, and cubmaster is appointed by them, so you are unfortunately not on equal footing here to deal with it yourself.  Not having valid YPT is not okay.

16 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

66%?  I suppose it's possible to believe 66% of the residents of NYC are liars is an explanation.  Another is that the stay at home orders are a farce.

As the article says, "mostly stayed at home". Take aside the nursing home folks, the imprisoned folks, and what you have left are the rest of us- those who are making weekly trips to the grocery store or the hardware store.  Again, the point of the stay-at-home was not that we wouldn't see a spread it was that we wouldn't see a massive swell that would overwhelm the health system.  Now, we should be slowly taking steps to begin to resume some activities.  Be smart, and not try and go 100 mph in a week.

I am all for building ourselves up to troop level in the longer term by starting with smaller group activities.  The biggest hurdle at this point is having a place to do it.  From what I am seeing around New England, state campgrounds are going to begin opening later in June, but with limitations- no group sites available, and no "gathering areas" open (playgrounds, observation areas, waterfronts, etc.).  Two minimal camping areas we have used in the past have not given any indication they will allow overnight usage at this point, though we are keeping in contact with them hoping in the second half of July they will allow them for single unit usage and we are planning for patrol level groups to use them.  I'm still waiting to see with many of the scout properties if summer camp is not doable, will they be allowing unit usage on a diminished capacity basis.  So far, my research is telling me that the few that have said anything about summer beyond "summer camp is not happening" have given some statement they hope to run weekend activities (no overnights, and with smaller numbers, by advanced signup only).  My son and another member of his Crew are planning some day trips for june, presuming our Council doesn't clamp down on Scouting activities beyond May.

Pine Tree Council (Maine) has cancelled resident camp at Camp Hinds and Bomazen.  Looks like they are going to offer some day activities on weekend dates starting in July to better mitigate risks.  I think the biggest hurdle that Maine camps have had to deal with is dining halls- both in terms of meals, and that they are also considered the safe-haven structure in case of severe weather (and if you can't use the dining hall for the later, then you really can't run camp).

25 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I agree, but I'm also thinking about the leadership in the state.  New Mexico's Governor is very aggressive. She is setting up roadblock around Gallup https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gallup-new-mexico-lockdown-sunday-governor-lujan-grisham/.  I would not be surprised if she shuts down Philmont.

Florida, on the other hand, well .. 

Oh, I know.  My dad is down there, and it is not a good situation.  Many old timers there think this is all a hoax, and continue to leave the house or get together with their friends.  Just waiting for the call that his whole 55+ community is ill.

26 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I know that is the current plan, but I would be shocked if it went through this summer.  While the curve has flattened (we are now linear growth), we haven't driving cases down.  I have a team in China  (not Wuhan) but when I discussed with them the USA's response their biggest shock is the travel we allow between locations.  That is a big way they limited the spread.  I think governors will realize this more and more and put a stop to locations that attract out of state visitors.  

It kills me as I think there is a risk that some of these high adventure bases may be sold off in Bankruptcy.  I also know it provides cash flow for BSA and many would lose out on a once in a lifetime experience.  I just think there is no way New Mexico or Minnesota will allow this to proceed.  Florida … perhaps and I have no idea about West Virginia.

Considering that most individuals are not driving from their home location to the HA bases, and are often going to fly, risk increased.  Dade County is one of the highest hit areas in Florida- I wouldn't fly through Miami right now, and I don't expect it to be flat there come July 1.  

3 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

The same for NJ, but I can’t see it feasible for a camp.

I'm sure it is one of many factors that are going into the decisions to cancel camp.  Social distancing is going to have to be a part of any camp operation at this point.  Large gatherings at campfires will need to be altered to allow spacing between individuals, frequent hand washing will be a necessity (I personally don't know of any camp that has hot water at every campsite, and I also am reticent to become the handwashing police), camp wide activities may need to be altered (like inter-troop relay races, OA call outs, etc.).

I also dread the parents who send their kid off to camp with one disposal-type mask that gets destroyed by sundown on day one.

7 hours ago, ItsBrian said:

I really can’t imagine campers, or even staff, being forced to wear a mask for the entire day. Staff having to wear one every day for the entire summer will definitely ruin spirit and the camp experience. I don’t believe this would happen, if camps open.

Here in MA, facemasks are a state mandate whenever out in public, for anyone age over the age of 2.  The signal from the Gov is that will be with us through the summer, and possibly even into the school year.  I fully expect it will be a requirement for camps.

16 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Once again Cub Scouts because thats where am at now.  I am hearing talk of wiping down all the BB guns, bows, arrows, etc before each new group comes up.  I just don't see how that is possible.  Time wise and effectively.

I was just saying tonight that all the rumored adjustments we have to make for resident camp, I can't imagine what would need to be done at cub camp.  Hard sometimes keeping 13 year old from grabbing at and wrestling with each other- can't imagine how that goes with the younger kids.  And trying to get them to keep their masks on and not touch them/adjust them 20,000 times a day.

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

These are all great intent, but they will be executed by young staff, so it may or may not happen

The biggest challenge will be dining halls, for the larger camps it's a non-starter.  If you have 800 in camp (staff / leaders / Scouts) that is 2400 meals a day.  Assuming you cut your dining hall capacity by 1/2, which is optimistic, the camp will need to be serving cleaning in a minimum of 6 cycles daily which will be 8 to 9 hours of time needed and varying dinner times.  Maybe go all meal pickup and eat in sire

While needed, the elimination of campfires and and assemblies will really cut into the summer camp experience.  Also some merit badge classes will have to cut capacity significantly, adversely affecting program.  Not sure there is a good solution

I have questions on how well these camps are going to do getting enough supplies to do all this disinfecting and sanitizing, especially as most people can't get their hands on it right now.  Figure if you were doing meals in shifts, you really aren't accomplishing much if you don't add time in between to sanitize for the next group.

I spent a little time time today sifting through some of the requirements for typical summer MBs we see from our kids.  Either if we were to go through council camp or go off and run our own thing, there are some requirements I struggle with how you could do them in "social distancing".  First Aid for example, I'd so much rather things are hands on rather than lecture of "theoretical first aid", but I can't see having the kids pawing at tech other doing bandages and such.  Archery/rifle shooting a good instructor will try to lean in and help the kid who is struggling sighting their rifle- can't see that happening much right now.  Handicrafts, you really would need staff to watch everything like a hawk to wipe down the handsaw after one scout uses it and another picks it up.  My head started to swim at how many MBs would probably be partials versus completes.

We are beginning the groundwork of plans for our own summer camp, hopefully the last week of July.  Normally we would have been at camp week 1 (June 28-July 4).  We are looking at later into July to allow our local area to settle, and let families adjust to anticipated "re-opening" the state in June (we are in MA).  We have an ASM who's family owns a tract of land in Maine with lake frontage, so we also have to respect local governance there.  Thankfully the property is abutted by other large private tracts, so we will be nicely distanced from others and will allow us to sufficiently be isolated, both for our benefit and that of others.  Several of of our youth, including mine and our SM, are camp staffers, so we will let them determine our daily scheduling, but we are probably going to make our camp week Sunday-Thursday or Monday-Friday, and try to avoid higher travel days, so that when we inevitably have to stop on the way to/way back we avoid big crowds at rest stops.  Primarily, I want us to have our BSA guards give opportunity to the young kids who need swimming MB and rank requirements, and offer some badges like pioneering, mammal study, cooking, geocaching, nature, etc. for the mornings. If we have an adult who wants to offer something in the handicrafts area, and is going to take it upon themselves to have the needed supplies and materials, that will be fine but don't want to leave it at the feet of the kids to have to do the gathering for it.  Mostly, as it will probably be our first overnighting opportunity in 2020, we want the kids to have plenty of time to just relax and make their plans on the fly for the afternoons (pick up wiffleball games, working on skills, taking hikes, etc.).  We'll be running a virtual Communications MB session next week, and I anticipate we'll have 5-6 kids working on that, which gives us a good resource to have them running opening or closing ceremony at our camp, a Scout Vespers one evening, and I'll let one of them be the "camp commish" to run morning/evening colors MC for the week to complete their badge requirements.   

Katahdin Area Council (Maine) jsut announced cancellation of the summer camp season at Camp Roosevelt.

We are awaiting any concrete statements.  We only have 7 kids signed up at this point, where we would expect 18-20.  Council only just sent the checklist for camp staff to upload forms/training certificates/etc yesterday.  MA pushed the end date for stay-at-home from May 4 to May 18.  Based on what Maine has announced as state plans, as of tomorrow they enter "phase 1", and while they were not exactly explicit in stating "summer camps", their guidelines wouldn't be looking to see groups of greater than 50 until 7/1 at the earliest (all 3 phases do call for anyone who is a non-resident to quarantine for 14 days upon entering Maine, so there is that).  I think I and SM are both of the mind that MA will follow what similar to what Maine is doing, and we won't see our summer camp open before 7/18, which basically kills the summer.  Looking at both Katahdin and Pine Tree councils, they have not made any updates to their Covid-19 statements for a few weeks, so that leaves me feeling melancholy.    

56 minutes ago, awanatech said:

I have no desire to go questioning at Council level, and especially not at National level.  I got to the point a long time ago where I don't go seeking more clarification when it's clear that nothing good will come out of it.  At least not through official channels.  I had never heard that about MBC not being considered a "registered adult leader", since they fill out an adult application, it is submitted to Council and they are approved (registered) or not. Along with that is the YPT and MBC training.  Sounds like they satisfy all the requirements of the term "registered adult leader".  But I've been around enough to know that many Councils will have different interpretations and policies.  It's just amazing sometimes how hard we try to make it within BSA to get & keep good, willing, qualified adult volunteers (who get to pay for the privilege of serving).

MBCs don't pay.  This is why there is a difference between "registered adult" and "registered adult leader".  MBCs are not required to take any training beyond YPT and MBC training.  They are not satisfactorily a leader, as they don't actually lead- they consult on Merit Badges.  For the purpose of a virtual meeting- OK, no problem, adults are not expected to be leading troop meetings, the SPL is.  What troop org chart have you ever seen that has MBCs on them, and what reporting lines they have? 

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Only in certain merit badge situations, not something considered an outing.  And that opens a new discussion about what constitutes a merit badge session, versus an "outing"

Again, policies are often written with ambiguity to protect the BSA...not you, nor youth 

 

Agreed.  MBCs are required to go through background checks for obvious safety, and to take our YPT to be familiar with the Scouting program (bear in mind, it was not the intention of the early days of Scouting for MBCs to be the troop leaders, they were to be the people in the community that were subject-matter experts for Scouts to interact with).  BSA does make it confusing with flip-flopping on the use of term "adult leaders" and "registered adult", but, an MBC is not expected to be a "unit leader", and thus is not intended to be a supervisor within any other part of the Scouting program other than MBs.  It was pointedly said during our summer camp pre-meetings that National does not consider a registered MBC to satisfy the two-deep leadership for units attending camp.  Only SM/ASM/Committee members can fill those roles (any one of those dual registered as an MBC, obviously is a different matter).

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Our PLC is telling scouts to focus on the MBCs that require tracking (personal fitness, personal management) or are bookwork (Citizenships) right now.  The idea is to get those out of the way so you can focus on the outdoor ones later.  I thought that wasn't a bad idea.  

Agreed.  I organized Family Life MB for our group- perfect time to work on projects at home with family members and "be present" to do chores for 90 days, Music Mb same- able tow work on learning a new jig; and we'll be doing Personal Fitness Mb in a week or so for the same reason.  Leave the Nature and E Sci for another time.

21 minutes ago, jpb6583 said:

So our SE just called me a few minutes ago. Tried to sell me on how this was a good idea and "in this troubled time" this was the best way to ensure adult volunteers were properly trained. He didn't like me calling their version pencil-whipped and had nothing to say after I pointed out that page 10 of the IOLS course guide specifically says "Do not move instruction areas inside to a classroom setting. This defeats the purpose..." I think I'm going to be put on that list councils like to keep with those who rock the boat...

I personally would have zero problem moving to virtual for some of the items, like Leave no Trace instruction.  But it shouldn't be a full repalcement, just that when things become more safe you could have a shortened in-person one nighter where everyone camps Friday night and the hands on outdoors stuff like fire-building and woods tools could be done, and everyone goes home by 1:00PM on Saturday.  But, seriously, are any of us really going to think we would want our kid being supervised in a campout come fall by someone who got their trained badge from Zoom?

10 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

AN OBSERVATION ABOUT THE CONSENSUS WORST SCOUTMASTER OF THE PERIOD IN THIS: "He thinks he can teach fire-building inside a building."

but, "fire-building" has the word "building" right in it... LOL