HashTagScouts

Perhaps a bigger question- who in your troop signs on requirements? For us, we want any scout that is Star/Life/Eagle signing off on anything up to First Class requirements.  Adults are a last resort for most requirements.

Pretty much by the time they have completed their second campout.  Does the patrol have a Troop Guide assigned to them? We would usually have the TG take the new patrol aside after opening for the first 2-3 meetings apart from what the rest of the troop is doing, and go over all the book-work stuff (requirement 1-3, though some will need to spend some time at home memorizing if they aren't quite as sharp as needed on Outdoor Code, etc.).  Totin Chip is at first campout, knots (as many as possible, including bowline and sheet bend) on the 2nd.  The hope is by that second campout, they will be at Scout and have started on requirements for Tenderfoot and 2nd Class, and by the time summer camp is over they will be at (or darn close) to completing Tenderfoot and be on good ground to focus on 2nd Class during the fall.

51 minutes ago, Saltface said:

What does that even mean? Cabins?

So, here in Eastern MA, November temps can range quite a bit.  One weekend it could be 60 during the day, 40 at night.  The next weekend could be 40 during the day, 20 at night.  Weekend after could 50 during the day - you get the point.  I do know of units that cabin camp only in November.  Not at all what I would do.  December/January/February are pretty assured of having temps that are below freezing at night, so I can appreciate having cabin camping in the winter.  I know at least one unit that has gone so far as having pizza delivered each year to camp during their January cabin weekend.  I don't suggest every scout should be a Daniel Boone, but getting through the elements at least once in their time as a scout doesn't feel like an earth shattering expectation for me.

I also know of units that do lock-ins at the church hall, and count that as a camping night.  Others that do lock-in at indoor climbing facilities (we have like 4 around here that do overnight programs for scouts), and count that as a camping night.  

BP's original Scouting for Boys had Tenderfoot as the joining rank. http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/yarn03.pdf

25 minutes ago, mds3d said:

I did skip over the 2016 list as I was trying to get back as far as I could. I don't think that a one year increase then back to the norm is indicative of  "sharply reduced" camping requirements.  Maybe since the 60's but not in recent memory.  

history of rank requirements if you are interested: http://www.troop97.net/pdfbin/bsa_ranks.pdf

Just now, desertrat77 said:

@HashTagScouts, thank you for your insights!

It seems the root causes aren't OA unique, but extend throughout the BSA:  units don't camp as often as they should.  And if I can take it a step further, they don't camp as they should.  From my observation, there is almost no emphasis on patrol method, woodcraft skills, or adventure.  Camping is infrequent and usually at an improved campground with plenty of amenities and a giant horse trailer full of gear.  Not much of a chance for a scout to grow. 

Thanks- that is my feeling.  The OA, in many areas, is only suffering the effects of what is going on in the program as a whole.  BSA culture overall is far too # fanatical today than it was just a few decades ago.  Ever heard the "First Class-First Year" rhetoric? I'll take a troop of 10 kids who are really interested in outdoor activities, that don't whine about a 5 mile hike, that know what it is like to wear out the soles on a pair of hiking boots before they outgrow them, who aren't afraid to be out of range of a cell=phone tower for an entire night any day over a troop of 50 kids that is fortunate to have half of them on a campout in the local park.  

12 minutes ago, mds3d said:

I did find that Q&A as well.  I missed it before.  I do think there is a difference between what they describe (scouting activities) vs what you did, "playing video games."  I have never had a unit use something like you describe to satisfy JTE requirements.  

This seems to be wrong.  The farthest that usscouts goes is the 2002-2003 rank requirements (as far as I can tell). First Class requirement #3 reads as follows :"Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight."

That seems really similar to the current requirement.  

I'm glad for context of "my time" vs "your time" as a scout.  I thought my scouting experience in the 90's and early 2000's was pretty great.  I have no reference for scouts was like back then.  That version of scouting has been gone for a while, but it wasn't perfect then either. 

 

BTW, I think our troop ran the patrol method pretty well, as do my troops today (as much as they can within the current YPT guidelines).  

The # of overnights and been increased in 2016, in part to get things back to outdoor emphasis as it had been in prior to the 90's.  It didn't last too long, obviously, before it was changed back down to 3.  

8 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

This probably should be a different topic, but, did anybody attend/view the Thrive Webinar?  I was just looking at the website, https://oa-bsa.org/thrive, does it really say that in 2018 only 57% of units held elections, only 71% of those elected are completing their Ordeal, and only 30% ever come back?  

I did attend the Thrive webinar with our LEC.  The numbers are a bit sobering, and the context of it all was... correct on many levels that we need to be concerned, but missing the mark on some points.  The reality is that many units today in my part of the country camp only a handful of times a year.  Many scouts are taking 4-5 years to achieve the requisite # of camping nights to complete Camping MB.  I know units that do more indoor camping than tent camping in a year, and cancel outdoor activities and do day events to museums, indoor mini-golf, etc. if there is a hint that it will be a rainy weekend.  We have gone soft on outdoor program, and far too many of the youth in our program are not nearly devoted as the youth of 30-40 years ago.  We've had some spirited discussions this past year on the unit election participation rate in our council, and I come down on the side that we need to better understand the units that are not participating, and evaluate the amount of effort we out into trying to engage them.  if the unit doesn't participate, because the SM feels someone from the Lodge did him wrong 10 years ago, it warrants a conversation to spend 3 minutes to convince him those persons are long gone.  If after 3 minutes he doesn't show any signal of changing his mind, move on.  If the unit has adult leadership that were not involved in scouting as kids/were never in the OA, better chance to lead them to openness to have an election- but we need to be careful that we spend time to educate the adults and the youth on what we are.  I was told by other Advisers, from within my lodge and without, that we should use the basic script about the history of the OA and that is all.  To me, that only means we get mediocre engagement, and don't really emphasize the honor part of being a member.  I'd be OK with 57% and 71% statistics, if we got enthusiastic scouts that cared about the history of BSA scouting, and would see the OA as an expression of their dedication.  So, my focus is on how do we get that 30% number up, far before we worry about the first two statistics.  National wants a commitment from Lodges to address all 3, which, if we are getting 30% to come back, then probably only about 1/3 of those scouts are actually REALLY engaging and taking leadership roles (either as officers, chapter officers, ceremonialists, election team members, etc.), then we most definitely don't have the resources to spread ourselves thin over all 3 IMO.  

Our "suggested" weekends in Ma are the same as yours.  The area councils try to be banded together for those dates, as the Boston based media promotes it for us.  I would say that November is a time of need, but the food pantry in my town has said they get a lot of donations that time of year and would rather we did February, as donations dip after the holidays.

The script versions they can google can be helpful in writing their own, but they would probably want to see some in action, so I might suggest watching some on Youtube first.  Many are only about 30-40 minutes long, though they can probably FFWD through and not have to see the award presentation for every scout.  A couple to get them started:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR741O7xn2o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiXymm0Dg0I

7 hours ago, qwazse said:

Taking a 1st Aid Course now. The EMT and nurse teaching it swears by q-tips dipped in dishwashing liquid for tick removal.

From someone who has unfortunately contracted Lyme's from a tick, this is not at all the method that the CDC recommends.  It causes the tick to regurgitate into the bloodstream before it backs out.

https://www.cdc.gov/ticks/removing_a_tick.html

4 hours ago, mds3d said:

I was mistaken.  Doesn't make it not a stupid rule.  I would hate to have had to plan my project around as many people as I did plus getting two, over 21, registered adults there the entire time as well.  

What is dumb would be that my project was completed over about 8 days of work.  Who decides which of those days were activities and which weren't? Only 2 had other scouts there.  Man, now I feel like an old man shaking my fist at a cloud...

Not admonishing- it does add complexity for sure.  The Eagle candidates we've had since last fall had been fortunate that they had parents who were troop leaders, which made it easy enough to assure they had 1 pretty much accounted for, so only had to "recruit" 1 other adult for everything.  We have one current scout working on their project that doesn't have that luxury, and unfortunately has gone rogue a few days that has been an issue.  His project is for the CO, which hasn't helped him to fly under the radar from us. 

9 hours ago, mds3d said:

Quickly since it is unrelated. I would say that Eagle projects are "scout adjacent" but not exactly scout activities.  Your helpers don't have to be scouts or scouters and there are no requirements that any of your helpers are involved.  An eagle project could theoretically be completed with no work from a scout other than the Eagle candidate himself.  That fact to me says this isn't a troop activity and doesn't need two over 21.  (2 adults for YPT is still a good idea probably but I am not sure you would actually have to require them to be YPT trained).  

Of course, like many things there seems to be conflicting information. 

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

from G2SS. Nothing reads as conflicting to me about that.

11 minutes ago, njdrt-rdr said:

Hmm...That never dawned on me with an eagle project...I'm sure I'm wrong, I guess generally it never clicked to me as a scout event because it wasn't run by the troop.

it's any activity- if you are having kids standing outside a store selling items, you need 2 adults 21+.  A patrol activity, same.  MB class, same.

7 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

Thanks for the insights, @HashTagScouts.  I've always felt that the proposed bankruptcy/sunny days ahead was more or less pie in the sky.

Right now the BSA, as an organization, is like that person with a low credit rating that needs to buy a car, but is going to have to accept whatever interest rate and conditions from wherever they can get the loan.  Long term grim.

 

Good analogy.  Another that helps to grasp it- in many states, an accident/moving violation on your driving record will stay for 5 years, 10 years (depends on your state laws) as long as you stay accident/moving violation free.  Get into another accident/receive another moving violation in that time, your costs will increase all over again.  You don't typically see a massive cost drop after that 5/10 years has passed, you just don't see a drastic increase on the next renewal.   

In agreement that the cub program has become overbearing.  I lamented that my son had no interest at cub age, thought he was missing out.  Got interested in W2 age, but ultimately heard that the DL was not organized, and the kids/parents were just sticking it out to get to crossover so I held him off until he could do troop.  As he got into troop, and I learned what was involved in cubs (was it two fingers now, or three? Law of the Pack isn't a thing anymore? And AoL is a program year itself now?), I didn't regret he didn't join.  I've thrown it out in other threads- the BSA seems to care more now about cubs than 'Scouts BSA' sadly.  

I'm also greatly concerned on those posting that "we'll go through bankruptcy, and all will be fine". Uh, my actuary co-workers would beg to differ on any interpretation that risk mitigation is greater because of a bankruptcy.  The future insurance costs are going to be based on the risk to underwrite the program based off the sins of the past, regardless of how much $$$ BSA ends up having to pay in settlements.  This new background check process is absolutely an attempt to stave off risk costs.  I won't at all be surprised if we see greater age restrictions coming in the next year on shooting sports, climbing, and high adventure.  I fear immensely that BSA is going to do what it feels it has to do to keep risk related factors in check to help with costs.

2 minutes ago, prof said:

Seems like the National Organization for Women is giving a board of review to someone who doesn't want to wait the prescribed amount of time, which is a requirement (which NOW and the scout, I guess, didn't understand or think should apply).

Scouts BSA is saying wait until October 2020. I hope that they hold the line on this one.

100% agree with you.  Sorry, but she knowingly is making this into a circus- what Eagle BOR has she ever known has been conducted by any outside group? None. Zero. So it is not official.  Her quote “The Boys Scouts policy right now is they’re not… allowing young women to have boards of review like this until October 2020 even though we’ve already completed the requirements to officially achieve the eagle award.”  No, you have not officially achieved the eagle award- the BSA gave you the path, so follow it or don't.  Sydney wants the official recognition as the first, period.  That is the motivation here.  And, as I have always maintained, it is highly plausible she is nowhere near the first female to do what she did, and I don't hear those other ladies yelling about it.

The cost just to be counted as a "Scout" or "Scouter" at $100 I do see as a deal breaker for some for sure.  We've been discussing in our TC the ramifications- we'd love to offer assistance to families if indeed it is that big of a jump, but short of rolling in more fund-raising there's a limit of what we can offer.  Our CO is tapped.  We don't want to have fund-raising to start to overtake time spent on activities.  In my view, the community is pretty tapped on those peddling to them.  As we have historically covered the cost of registered adults, this could be a big jump to our budget, and I'm beginning to have conversations with those who are only minor contributors - I can't justify paying a $100 for someone that comes only to handful of meetings, never camps, etc.  I'm inclined to have them register as a MB counselor (assuming those are still free) just so I know YPT is being tracked. 

So I did browse through the survey, as my son received the invitation.  A lot of it is rating experience with call out, feelings about call out, feelings about Ordeal experience, etc.  There was one question along the lines of "do you feel the BSA is headed in the right direction", with the response choices of agree or disagree, but there were sadly no follow ups on that thread.  Seemed very oddly out of place to me that it didn't have any true direct follow up questions getting to why scouts felt one way or the other.  There were some indirectly related questions later in the survey, on the level of participation for the respondent (such as I attend meetings frequently, infrequently, etc.).  

I haven't received- I'm going to guess it is gathering stats to present for the Thrive webinar coming up.

https://oa-bsa.org/article/thrive-national-webinar-local-commitment

4 hours ago, yastreb said:

Though, I've never heard of having to "give a portion back to the bsa". As far as I know there is no such thing with troop-organized fundraisers.

oh, yes there is... council expect you to give them 10% of your earnings for any unit fundraiser.

Every new DE we get, it is the first thing they ask us- you don't do popcorn, what do you do for fundraising? We just don't answer...

Sons previous troop was exactly as you describe, and had evolved to that starting in about the few years before he joined it.  Patrols are kept together, and touted as "they are all going to be the group of friends they will have long after their time in scouting is over".  Well, except for the kids who quit because they just weren't friends with their patrol mates after a time, but were not given an option to move to another patrol.  Many of those kids who left had just grown apart from the other kids, there wasn't any actual animosity.  A few went on to go to other troops, but sadly, many just did not.  The advancement push was OK for someone like my son, who was generally just driven to begin with, so the opportunities were there, and he took advantage of them.  But, as he saw other kids getting pushed through advancement that couldn't fry an egg let alone boil water, or tie their own shoes let alone a bowline, it began to feel like a factory as described.  As he looked at his own path, he was an Eagle, did time in leadership positions, but loved concept of being camp staffer and OA.  Discussion with me was to just not participate with the troop anymore, or quit scouting altogether.  I urged him to consider there was the other option of going to another troop, or join a Crew.  Something to keep him interested, and have the opportunity for scouting to be fun again and have his time of "responsibility" with camp staff and OA, but that it was OK to have an outlet to just have fun too.  

Some parents in current troop like to mutter about their kid isn't advancing quickly.  Usually I take that as an opportunity as CC to sit with them and look at their kids book.  I flip through and show them that son has done X, Y, and Z, but hasn't asked anyone to sign, and that is where they as parent can play a role.  Talk to their kid, encourage them to get recognition when they have earned it.  There is nothing wrong with them helping their son as a cheerleader, but I can't have them bringing their kids book themselves and asking for signatures.  I also try to include parents on BOR for other scouts.  I don't require that only committee members be on BORs, so that more parents can experience what goes on in a scouts mind about advancement.  The BORs I run I don't stick to a script, I don't go with the "if there was one MB that you would like to do", or "what activities would you like to see the troop do"- frankly, they already have the avenue to express that.  I use the BOR to talk to them about their ultimate goals - in scouting and in life- and help them set some personal goals on their next rank.    

First of all, great job on the growth! I think @qwazse has it right for your immediate needs.  A year from now, with plenty of time to plan, you may have it figured out on a larger space that works to have everyone together, but for now spit nights.  That also might help with getting some parents to step in as den leaders, if they don't have to do it every week.

I share some pessimism on whether we are headed to some great rebirth or massive membership increase.  Scouts Canada went through similar progressive reshape of their organization, and for many of the same reasons that many are citing today as to why the BSA "is on the right track".  The result? Membership of youth participants is on the decline yet again for Scouts Canada: 

2013-2014  88,453

2017-2018  58,881

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