Back Pack

On 1/14/2018 at 10:26 AM, ItsBrian said:

I wanted to talk about something off-topic from scouting, so here it goes.

How do you feel about 14, 15 year olds having jobs?

 

Why I'm Bringing It Up:

I got hired when I was 14 at a CB Day Camp (I turned 15 during the summer). That ended, now I'm trying hard to find a part-time job as a 15 year olds.

Let me say, it is not easy trying to find a job for 15 year olds in NJ. I have looked at every single place in my area (about 20 different food  places / stores )

Now, after finally applying to many places. I get a interview at McDonalds! My first "official interview" ever. I was shocked they even considered 15 year olds.

 

I bet some teens are immature yes, and that's why some places don't want to hire them, but does 1 year age difference really make a difference? I understand there are other factors too. But, what about the teens that are mature and smarter than most 15 year olds?

Many places don’t hire until 16 even where I live. You can blame all the other irresponsible kids for that rule. Even older teens are equally irresponsible. In every job I’ve had at least half the employees have at one point walked out or called in for bad reasons. So employers hire older teens instead. 

9 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

I wouldn't use the wording "only the knot," since the knot is still an honorable indication of rank. I think part of the problem here is that people seem to have disparaging views on the Eagle knot, as though only the actual rank patch was really good enough. Why is this? Is it because it's bigger and flashier? Is it the attention we are craving? The knot is just as honorable as the rank patch. And if one really is starved for attention, there are the neckerchiefs, the slides, the belt buckles - goodness knows a hundred other ways to advertise that you are an Eagle Scout if that's what you want. Why people get hung up over the rank patch is frankly pointless to me. 

And if you really do insist on wearing the darn thing, get your Eagle earlier so you have time to wear it longer. Although I got my Eagle at 14 and I couldn't have cared two figs about whether people noticed my patches or not. 

I meant only the knot to differentiate between the badge and the knot and wearing both which is a no no. 

15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

At one time I know Explorers, and later Venturers, could wear the Eagle patch until 21. Saw many 18-20 year olds in my post do just that. Way before my time, Sea Scouts could wear Eagle too. In fact they made a navy blue background and a white background Eagle patch just for them.

I am in Venturing and this is still true. I can wear my Eagle patch until 21 on this uniform. If I wear a Boy Scout shirt as a registered leader or college reserve I can only wear the Eagle knot. If I work at a council camp and am not a Venturer I can only wear the knot since only registered Venturers (boys) can wear the Eagle patch. I can wear the Eagle neckerchief with any uniform. 

13 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

1)  The boy in question is mine.

2) I am the DL.

3) We talked about holding him back in Kindergarten bet decided against it.  I sent a message to his teacher tonight to see if its something to think about.  So, its not a done deal yet.

 

Happened to me. Best move my parents made. I wasn’t emotionally ready to go up with my peers though I had few friends then. Wasn’t a big deal. Scouting helped me grow up and learn to behave and make friends. It just got me to college one year after everyone else. 

28 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I don't know where this idea came from (probably the BSA.) But it does harm to people and to the program. 

Eagle Scout is not some silver bullet for teenagers. If your grades suck, Eagle Scout won't get you into college. If you bomb your interview, Eagle Scout will not get you the job. As a corporate recruiter myself, I don't look for Eagle Scouts, I look for candidates who are qualified to do the job, and if they happen to be Eagle Scouts, then we chat about that after the serious stuff is out of the way. 

Eagle Scout is valuable not because it will cause other people to think better of the Eagle Scout, but because of the personal journey of growth being in a Troop for 2-6 years can have. Can it help you in an interview or college admissions? Possibly, but you have to be qualified already. 

Just like "Go to college so you can get a good job" sets young people up to have a useless degree, tons of debt, disappointment and a minimum wage job. "Eagle will get you places in life" means parents will help their sons get Eagle at any cost, and the cost is what we actually want our Scouts to learn: liife skills, leadership, teamwork, ethical decisionmaking, love of country, and respect for creation. 

I wonder if Gary is an Eagle Scout and what benefits he perceives he's received by earning it. 

As a recent Eagle I can back this up. No college I visited cared about Eagle. No college interviewer asked about it but they did ask about what I did in scouts. No job I’ve had really considered Eagle that much of a big deal. The internship I have now only asked me about Eagle because the guy interviewing me was a scoutmaster. Only scouting related jobs ever asked me about Eagle. My friends who are eagles have similar stories. I am fine with this. I climbed scouting’s Everest but it’s not like I’m going to use that to introduce myself at parties. It helped make me who I am but it’s not who I am, if that makes any sense. Off to biology. 

8 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Yea, sorry for the late response Flagg. Missed your original post. 

I have the same issue. I tried to change in the mobile version (all I use because I can’t access the site from library computers) and can’t change this either. 

2 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Leaving aside the question whether that is ever true, it is not true in this forum.

How manny scouts are former military or cops or politicians. It’s impossible to be Scout like all the time so yes it would be true that you can’t be Scout like all the time. We try to be but can’t always be. 

6 hours ago, EmberMike said:

She earned the Chief Scout's Award in Scouts Canada, but completed merit badges and rank requirements in the BSA without badge recognition. 

Then let her get Canada’s highest rank. She’s not a USA scout. Period. 

7 hours ago, EmberMike said:

She will have started by the time she can join, and she'll still be youth age. Sure she'll be 17, but it's not like she hasn't been a scout all this time. Surely some of her experience in the Scouts Canada program would transfer credit for reqs over to the BSA program. No one is saying to make it easier for her. Just to give her a chance to maybe finish the requirements and make her case for an extension on time allowed. 

There's no precedent for this kind of thing. And it also doesn't have to be a Pandora's Box as @HelpfulTracks mentioned. This girl is unique, she's been in and around Scouting her whole life. She's active in other scouting organizations. Maybe this would set a precedent for other girls in the same situation, but how many girls could we really be talking about, who have the relevant experience she does? Can't be more than a handful. 

Let her try it. She's proven herself resourceful, motivated, smart, and certainly brave. All qualities I'd like to see in any Eagle Scout. I think she's earned the right to at least apply for an exception/extension and let National hear her out on it.

 

No. She has to start at Scout and work her way up. She has to abide by the same rules I did. She joins and earns Scout and then has to earn the other ranks. You can’t get credit for work before joining just like webelos and non scouts can’t get credit now. The requirements say “while a scout” which means a USA registered scout. If you bend the rules for her you need to bend them for everyone else. Why is she so special? 

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I think that would depend on why they are ineligible. If it is because they don't believe in God, then yes, I would let them sit at my camp fire and drive my kids. I wouldn't let them be a scout leader, though.

My concern with creating an expectation that all parents register as leaders is that it draws unnecessary and unwanted attention/speculation/gossip to the parents who are not eligible to be leaders. People will sometimes assume the worse. I don't want that.

 

My best friend’s dad had a minor conviction as a college student. He was always very open about it and was turned down by bsa to be a leader or even parent. Still he worked in the background doing so much for our troop. He repaired the trailer and many other things. He always put it out there to us “don’t make my mistake” and everyone respected him for it. He wasn’t embarrassed nor was his son. My dad still let me hang at his house. I think you can have a policy like Col Flagg says and still allow people to keep their dignity. It’s all how you handle it. 

@Eagle94-A1 got it. My parents stayed out of my way and let me succeed and fail in my own and I learned so much. A few of my friends had a lot of help from their parents and they are less able all around. 

20 hours ago, EmberMike said:

Why is someone that is advocating for something she believes in a "complainer" in your book? Just because she (and me and a lot of other Scouters) believe something that you don't? 

Anyone is able to apply for an extension for Eagle. Any other girl who joins the program can do the same. 

Do I think this girl is exceptional and maybe deserves a little more consideration in this matter? Sure. She put herself out there, endured harsh criticism and ridicule over this. For something that all she stood to gain at the end of it all was the right to join the organization. That's pretty brave in my book. It also was done without the expectation that the policy would ever change. It just so happens that it is changing while she's still of scouting age. 

Also keep in mind she's not 20 and asking for this. She would actually still be youth age at the time she could join. She just needs an extension on the age-out policy, something that plenty of boys get, too. If she isn't allowed to at least apply for the extension like anyone else, that's wrong. 

She’s not even started the Scout tank yet. She’s got that to do firs and all the other requirements too. Just like I had to do. Unless bsa changes requirements to make even that easier. 

The biggest issue with Eagle is the paperwork. The various requirements are easy. Leadership is easy though in big troops getting a slot when you want it can be a problem. MBs are easy but finding a class or the time to work on them can be challenging. It’s when you hit the project and the workbook that your eyes glaze over. None of my friends got through it without adult assistance of some kind. The younger kids who got through it had mom and dad help them almost entirely on the project and the workbook. 

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 

AH that is why the whitewater trip is a "Family Trip:" each family is responsible for themselves. Another reason why I am not going. As a BSA Lifeguard, I'm going to be responsible regardless of what they call it. And yes, I mentioned SSD and SA, as well as G2SS rules to the adults when it first came up. And that is why I was told it's a "family campout.' And after the last canoeing weekend, which turned into a family camp out, I'm not dealing with it.

Glad the canoeing weekend will be the same as the backpacking weekend for the older Scouts.

As for siblings/children and dogs, kinda hard when the SM brings his daughter and dogs to the occasional camp out.

 

I have a question. If it’s a family camp out do the bsa rules apply? What about insurance? I ask because our Sm taught our PLC to consider these issues for educational purposes. He wanted us to be aware of the stuff the adults need to consider. I must admit it’s been a few years since I was jasm and I don’t recall hearing about how family camping is handled, mainly because we never did it. 

Luckily if we use state parks they have rules against too many cars. Several parks require you to walk to your site. Our PLC would use these locations to combat parents car camping. 

Did we change topics? I get confused when we sometimes we’re told to stay on topic and other times we go so far off. 

31 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Magical stuff. I am just old enough to have to write a thesis on a typewriter. But it was electric and had an auto-correct tape feature. You have no idea what you missed.

In grade school I just loved the smell of the mimeograph machine in the morning. It smelled like victory.

Ok. Now I had to google that too. I guess this is like when my mom has to google tinder or Snapchat or text slang. Can’t wait for my dad to chime in with walking home uphill both ways. Not like I didn’t hear that daily growing up. 

Had to google “carbon paper”. 

13 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

One of the ASMs is pushing a family camp out to go whitewater rafting. Scouts suggested another major trip instead. both are being considered BY THE ADULTS (emphasis) as a possible family camp out. since 'we can only do one."Wife has said she does not want to camp with the troop. Even she is frustrated with Boy Scouts doing "Family Camping" as she is tired of the complaints from  me and the boys. We may be doing our own trip instead. Only one who does not have a proper backpack is the youngest. He has a 30L daypack, which could at least carry his stuff.

I’ve listened to my dad preach this to PLC during training every year, but wouldn’t everyone going rafting need a swim test and certain training? Don’t you need a trained adult to particant ratio too? I can tell you if my unit went family about 90 percent of the scouts would quit. We use scouting to be with friends and not hang with mom, dad and little sister. 

I missed something. We should have a PG13 area for those old enough. I feel like I’m at the kids table still. 

1 hour ago, CherokeeScouter said:

One document consisting of two parts. And if you are insisting on hard signatures, then a signature page that includes both PRE and POST signatures. This way eliminates all the insertion and all that crap. You just scan a signature page when you are done (or take a photo of it) and add to the Workbook. But right now, we have a signature page embedded in the Proposal and a signature page embedded into the Report. Plus the contact info page, which seems totally superfluous to me. 

And do we need we really need a distinction between material and supplies (or whatever it is)?

I'm almost fairly certain I could get the Proposal and the Report down to one page each (10 point). You ought to see the Eagle Reference Letter I did for the Council. It is a thing of beauty. Contains Oath and Law and space for comments. It's one page. 

Here’s the problem with that approach. The proposal is a high level document outlining what you want to do. The plan is the detailed method for execution of the project. That’s how I learned the most was developing and executing the plan. The proposal was meaningless except to lay out my rough idea. The final report forced me to think about what worked and what didn’t. It was a valuable step in helping me prepare for my bor and think through my project and it’s results not to mention how I demonstrated leadership. The only issue is that bsa does not require sign off in the plan so many guys I know wrote them after their project. What good is that. 

On 1/8/2018 at 5:33 PM, insert_Display_name said:

I joined the site 10 minutes ago and hope someone can help me and sorry if this is the incorrect forum. Basically my problem is that I'm working on my eagle but I haven't started my project without going into details I need to talk with the chief of police of my city and explain to him what I want to do with the police and if I can do a project for them and see if they even want it. My question is if there is a format for a document I could use which has basic information on my project and what I want to do but have it be professional and if there is any proper way to do this. If anyone can help I would appreciate it.

I finished my Eagle in 2016. I used the workbook’s proposal section and printed off about four of those for each project idea I had. I used those because they helped me lay out my ideas. I used pencil so I could edit things easier. I met with several possible beneficiaries and discussed my ideas. 3 liked my ideas and one didn’t want me to do a project. I told them that I needed my Eagle coach’s approval on the proposal and that I’d let them know if the project was approved. I worked with my scoutmaster and PLC so that any project not approved for my Eagle would still get done by the troop as a service project. That way the work would still get done. I had the beneficiary sign the proposal once we reviewed the project idea and draft plan. That way I was all set if my Eagle coach and Sm liked it too. Does that help?

As someone who recently completed this document I agree it is very bad. The biggest issue not yet mentioned is the process of the three documents the workbook contain. The proposal is straight forward enough but could be refined a bit to capture more key elements of the proposal development process. The project plan should mirror the proposal but should include another signature or validation step. This is the detailed blueprint for doing the project and where kids need the most help. The report should be designed to help kids identify what went well, what didn’t and what they learned as a result. The current workbook seems like it was written by several people with several voices and is too hard to follow. I guess I did learn something in my 12th Grade English class after all. 

Wow. Our Sm would have had the SPL reschedule and have the PLC establish homework to be done before the rescheduled meeting. What a lost opportunity. 

1 minute ago, Hawkwin said:

???

What rule change are you eluding to? The OP doesn't (and NJCubScouter doesn't, and I don't) refer to changing any rules in the "race to be Eagle." Perhaps you are conflating two different topics? This is simply about whether or not, as NJ stated, the race is good, bad, both or neither.

 

I didn’t realize we had to stick to a single thread when responding. I haven’t seen that happen here since I joined. The race is bad because it almost always involves rushing. It’s bad because it almost always involves pushy parents. It’s bad because in another thread we have girls pushing bsa to allow corners to be cut. It’s bad because racing reinforces poor quality. If we’re being honest very rarely to we see any youth attain any stature without a high degree of adult pushing and prodding.