jjlash

Three and a half weeks till I arrive.  Spending one night at PTC before heading to Rayado Ridge for two weeks.  I'll try to stop in to craft center and say hi.

Ive used smart water bottles and gatorade bottles on 2 PSR treks and a few other non-PSR treks.  I like the smart water because they are tall and skinny so fit better in my side pockets.  I usually get multiple 32oz and 1 of the 16oz with the "sport bottle" lid.  I drink the 16 at home and put the lid on the 32.  Be sure to put names on them because they all look alike.

I havnt used a pack cover in many years.  Instead I use a pack liner and just deal with the pack itself being wet.  Any heavy duty trash bag will work as a liner, I like the ones we get from the DOT for highway cleanup because they are orange so easier to see into than the usual black bags.  They are a good diameter for my pack and tall enough to roll the top down.

One problem we often have with pack covers - when someone straps their foam pad to the outside of the pack, they always strap it horizontally which causes the cover to "flair" out leaving a gap on the sides.  Putting the pad inside the pack is better, but if they need to put it outside, I have them strap it vertically so the cover fits better.

To put the pad inside - try putting it into the empty pack vertically then unroll the pad as much as possible to create a "tube" and put everything else down inside the tube.

Sorry - I dont understand the question.  Why wouldn't they be allowed to be in shorts?  As long as they are in uniform and looking sharp I dont care.  In fact - at 90 degrees I would expect my Scouts to be in uniform shorts.

Expanding on the "my sandbox, my rules" approach - insist that the pack will be run according to the BSA materials for the Cub program.  This begins with everyone being trained for not only their position but all of the positions in the pack (aside - new facilitator led Cub leader training came out yesterday, it is scheduled to run 4 hours to cover DL, CM, MC).  Once people know what their job is, and what everyone elses job is, they know what is expected of them and they know why we do things one way and not another.

@HelpfulTracks I assume your handle is referring to the BP quote about leaving tracks.  One of my very favorites - I am big on not reinventing the wheel so I use this quote often to remind my teams to capture their lessons learned "for those coming after".

The thing I seem to forget and am therefore destined to relearn on every trek is that the Scouts have different priorities than the adults. 

We want them to be physically prepared because we fear that we are not.  We want them to learn the map/compass skills so we are not embarrassed when ranger asks them to orient the map.  We want them to practice hanging bear bags so it doesnt take 2 hours for the first few nights.  They dont care about any of those things - they are young and athletic and will not feel the pain, they dont mind learning the map skills again, they seem to enjoy the fellowship of trying to get the food hung. 

Let them struggle.  To bring on storming.  So they can work through the issues.  And be stronger for it.

Also - so that it has been said....You do know that alcohol stoves are specifically addressed in the G2SS, right?

Quote

Chemical fuels not recommended—Unleaded gasoline; liquid alcohol fuels, including isopropyl alcohol, denatured ethyl alcohol, and ethanol; and other flammable chemicals that are not in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions for chemical-fueled equipment

[...]

Prohibited chemical-fueled equipment—Equipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed.

22 hours ago, SSScout said:

Every Council/District training committee needs to consider, the BALOO and IOLS curriculum are VERY similar. Almost identical.   Why not combine them , with some Cub philosophy sections as necessary.   It works for us....  

I only wish "they" had approved the idea of the SMS folks receiving the BALOO cert too.  Why couldn't a ASM accompany a Cub Pack camping? 

Though IOLS and BALOO cover many similar topics, if they are done properly they are not almost identical.  They are (should be) very different in the depth of the information and in the approach.  BALOO is training for Cub Scout adults to plan and carry out a pack/family campout.  While IOLS is about the Scout leaders being able to guide their Scouts in planning and carrying out a patrol campout. 

Part of the learning for Scout leaders should be for them to have an experience similar to what their new Scouts will have - being part of a patrol, with people you may or may not know, learning the new skills (and maybe struggling with them a bit), choosing their own campsite, setting up camp, planning and preparing their own meals, doing all this under the "supervision" of a Troop Guide.  AND - the level of camping skills and the camping rules are quite different between Cubs and Scouts.

In my council, we run IOLS and BALOO concurrently but the only thing we overlap is campfire program and cracker barrel.

Have fun with NTIER.  We always self-outfit but my son worked at NTIER one summer and loved it.  Had some great stories about the crews he took out.

Yes, the crew FAK go in its own dry bag.  Everyone knows who carries it during the day.  We use Philmont-style food hangs and FAK always  goes in the oops bag.

Yes, Helinox.  Last Philmont trek I weighted my Helinox against my stadium chair (not Crazy Creek brand so YMMV) and they were within an ounce or two.  The Helinox is way more comfortable but - is less convenient to setup/pack up so I didnt get it out for really short stops.  Dont really have that issue canoeing compared to backpacking.

Thanks - we are going to Mudro / Fourtown area this year.  None of us has ever been there so looking forward to the new sights.

Are you actually going through NTIER or going on your own (with or without an outfitter)?

I purchase maps (used both Fischer and Mackenzie) rather than print my own so no worries about them getting wet, but I do use a map case to keep them all together and to clip the case to the thwart.

First Aid kits are all DIY - basic "boo boo" stuff, gauze, ace wrap, dont recall what else off hand.  One thing that is always in my kit if we're fishing - small side cutters to cut off an embedded hook.

Never used gloves.  I usually get a blister on a couple of fingers at the start of the trip.  Wrap a strip of duct tape around for a couple of days takes care of it.

Some folks like a stadium chair for the canoe.  The ones I tried didnt strap to the seats well so they were a hassle when portaging.  But I do like a chair with a back for sitting around camp.  Going to take my Equinox Ground Chair this year.

I put a dot of velcro on the thwart and the mate on my compass so I can have it out in front of me all the time.  If I take a GPS, I mount it to the thwart too.

Favorite lakes / portages....Hm. 

• I really like the stretch NE out of Snowbank then down to Jordan and Ima and on down to Thomas.  The portage out of Ima starts in a crack in the rock face, and the "river" between Ima/Hatchet/Thomas lakes is really pretty when the lily pads are in bloom.  There is a great campsite on the SSW part of Ima, on the portage into Alworth Lk, it is large with big pines and nobody else around.
• I really like Vera lake, it is small and quiet (only a couple of campsites) and very scenic.  The portages in and out were probably the toughest Ive done.
• Robbins Island is really neat to explore - still a few remnants of Dorthy Molter's old lodge.

I do that requirement for my Troop about once a year.  The thing that I always make sure to cover is - an orienteering course is not the same as a compass course.  Orienteering is a race against other competitors, or in the simple case against the clock.  To do this well the Scouts need to learn how to navigate with map and compass well enough to do it on their own.  Then they can do it as an orienteering course.

As for layout out the course it is pretty straight forward.  I pretty much do what qwazse suggested - use a mapping app to lay out a course around the park of the right distance.  I'll print the map (both with and without the distances/angles) and go to the park.  I'll walk the course to make sure the landmarks are valid, and measure the distances/angles in person.  Once Ive got it all worked out and saved all I have to do is arrive a bit early to place the flags.

46 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

For those who don't know what Venmo does ---- and for those naive users who think it's "safe", here's another eye-opening article that gives you a hint of what the app is REALLY up to:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/21/style/venmo-cheap-friends-transaction-history.html

Again - wow.  The article I found was unsettling from a privacy perspective.  This one is unsettling from a human being perspective - the quote that jumped out at me (because Ive been seen similar references in other places recently) is “changes friendships and makes them more transactional” .  

I've heard of Venmo but never looked into it until I read this thread.  Quickly found this piece about the app/service.  Wow - unsettling

https://www.wired.com/story/venmo-alternatives/

Not really a source that answers their question for "rules" and "pages" but instruction on campfire planning usually includes a list of things to stay away from.  I dont find it in the IOLS syllabus, from the BALOO syllabus:

Quote

Screening the Material Everything that occurs at the campfire should be approved in advance. Do not allow jokes or stunts that are in poor taste. Do not make anyone the brunt of a joke, stunt, or skit. There simply is too much good material available—keep the program on a higher plane. When in doubt, leave it out!

Some basic no-no’s in a campfire program include the following:

• No embarrassing an audience member • No racial putdowns • No cultural putdowns • No portraying violent behavior • No bathroom humor • No water skits • No sexual overtones • No material that is not consistent with BSA standards

There are arguably gray areas, but the best advice is that these gray areas should be avoided. If everything was rated on a scale of 1 to 10, use the “8” material instead of the “2” material. Let’s “raise the bar” and make sure everything presented is up to BSA standards.

I would put this under "bathroom humor".  The last statement is the one that I would use.

See also Scout Law #5.  A Scout is Courteous (i.e. is not offensive)

52 minutes ago, malraux said:

Isn't the real mountain top leader training experience Philmont Leadership Challenge anyway? 

I may be biased - just as the people who had a great WB experience are biased - but yes.  For me Philmont Leadership Challenge was a much more valuable leadership experience than WB.  I think partly because I attended PLC after having staffed 4 WB courses so I was beginning to truly understand and live the WB lessons.  And partly because I am a tactile learner and WB is so much lecture.

I believe (in hind sight) if I had stopped after attending WB I would have learned some methods for project planning and not much more.  Each time I staffed I gained a better and deeper understanding of the concepts.  It wasnt until PLC that I was really able to wrap my head around "servant" leadership as opposed to a non-servant style.  Not because the concept is difficult but because WB does a terrible job with that topic.

(as an aside - recruiting is under way right now for the 2019 PLC courses.  message me if you are interested or have questions)

Thank you for sharing this Karen, it provides good general info for those of us who do not have much experience dealing with truly challenging youth.  I have passed it along to someone in my council who is creating a training session on dealing with kids with these abilities and challenges (also as part of her ticket).

I have a couple of really minor style things to point out if you would like them:

* On the list of "DO"s each item is capitalized.  On the list of "DON'T"s none of the items are capitalized.

* You have many places where Scout is capitalized and a few places where it is not.  Same for "Unit"

* The middle couple paragraphs in the section "Things To Watch Out For" are not really things to watch out for but would make a really nice overview or introduction.

* There is at least one instance of "Boy Scouts"

Thanks again for creating this and sharing it beyond your council.

Jay

My preference to give and to receive is a donation to the council's scholarship fund for Wood Badge / NYLT.  Possibly the best gift possible in my mind - helping others to learn and grow. 

Wow - 5 courses a year.  That makes sense to pull a lot of those functions up to serve multiple courses.   Is there any overlap of the youth staff from one course to the next?  Is there any interaction or joint meetings of the staffs during development?

1 hour ago, jjlash said:

We try to keep adult staffing to the minimum - too many adults with not enough to do is a recipe for them interfering with the youth-run method.  We usually have Course Director and Backup, QM, Admin, Program, Facilities, Medic and Cook.

11 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

My council typically has 48 participants/ 14/16 youth staff and 4 adult staff. Our youth and adult staff eat with the participants. 

Good job on only 4 adults.  That is where I would like us to be but so far, as I said...Our adult staff is kind of carried over from our Wood Badge structure where roles like QM/Admin/Program/Facilities are defined by the syllabus.  On a 4-adult staff, do you have well defined roles or is it more everyone does everything?  

Our program is fairly new so still growing.  Last year was our 6th time holding the course and we filled it (48 participants) for the first time.  We are hoping for a waiting list this year so that we can consider running two courses next year.  Not sure we'll make it - we may be reaching our equilibrium for the number of youth in our council.

Our youth staffing is usually about 12-13 - our goal is 1 per patrol (8) + 1 SPL but we usually over-staff a bit to allow for a) in case one has to back out and b) to find the best possible presenters for the large-group sessions.  This does present a challenge of what to do with the extra kids...the ones that are not strong enough to give a large group presentation may also not be strong enough to be youth QM or Admin.

We try to keep adult staffing to the minimum - too many adults with not enough to do is a recipe for them interfering with the youth-run method.  We usually have Course Director and Backup, QM, Admin, Program, Facilities, Medic and Cook.

I dont have the syllabus handy - but since they have already done a couple of dinners I would think it is referring to the meal time discussion rather than the preparation/service itself.  May be it is just reinforcing the expectation that there be useful discussion about the patrol and individual progress (rather than random video game discussions).  Maybe not so much how they are taking care of themselves but about what insights and learning they are having about leadership and servant-leadership.

We send all of the staff, youth and adult, to eat with patrols.  We have a spreadsheet that generates the rotations so that we have 1 youth and 1 adult per patrol per meal.  The Troop Guide is with their own patrol on D1 and D2 then they join the rotation so they can meet some of the other patrols.

I would have to look a bit to find the reference but I recall the same advice from current FA instructor materials.  Here is part of what the current BSA page on it says: https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/safety-moments/hypothermia/

• If the victim is conscious and able to swallow, offer warm liquids to drink. DO NOT give alcoholic drinks.
• Apply warm, dry compresses to the neck, chest, and groin areas. DO NOT apply heat to the arms or legs, as this speeds cold blood back to the heart, lungs, and brain, causing the core temperature to drop even more. This can be fatal.

A lot of good opinions here and I'll add mine.  Encourage your son to give it a fair try and decide based on his own experience rather than on hearsay from others.

I was pretty active for the first couple of years after I was called out (as an adult).  I earned brotherhood and went to all of the events.  But after a while I lost interest in the things our lodge/chapter are doing so I stopped going to most things.  On the other hand, I have had several Scouts in my Troop like @Setonfan - they were close to dropping out and OA gave them new challenges with other Scouts their own age.

Our patrols do not often set up a dining fly.  And when they do it is always _after_ the rain has started 😞

For "everyday use" we have a few 10x10 nylon equinox brand from campmor.com along with various rope/cordage and some 2x2 wood poles.  We also have some Cook Custom Sewing (CCS) 10x12 tarps in the high adventure totes.  I picked these up cheap a few years ago at the Northern Tier end-of-year "garage sale".  

If what you really want is to allow patrols to separate and be more autonomous - just get some "blue tarps" from a big box store.  They will work just fine for car camping and are inexpensive enough that you're not out much if the patrols don't embrace that style.

The only suggestion I have is - if you are going to buy (or make) a decent tarp and have the option, get one with ties for the tie-out points rather than grommets.  Ties sewn onto the tarp will hold better and do less damage if they do pull out in heavy weather.  If grommets pull out they leave a big hole to repair.