jjlash

Good advise @LeCastor.  

14 minutes ago, Stosh said:

The whole process is free.  Rationale?  You are a volunteer doing very important for people experiencing desperate times in their lives,

...

How serious is BSA with their training when they are sitting there worried about whether or not $5 ought to be charged for lunches or materials?

 

Free is my thought too - because they are already giving their time, plus certainly spending their own money supporting their unit.

It is not the BSA doing this.  National has created the online modules.  And we promote them but we still offer in-person training several times a year. 

Hm - maybe I need to approach it as the small cost of in-person training being a better use of time.  Take the online training to "check the box".  Take an in-person session to meet some new people, ask questions, get answers, get info beyond the bare essentials and have a snack.

Great info, thanks.  So far it matches with our discussions.

Yes, most of the classroom, position specific stuff is online and is pretty good.  I expect folks to complain about "paying a few dollars to take it in person when they can do it for free online?"  Of course, my response will be "then why havn't you already done it online?"

I agree that in person is better so you have the interactions and organic discussions.  But my biggest complaint with the online stuff is that it is buried - I would love to have a simple, direct link that I can put on a flier or mention in roundtable.  Trying to talk someone through the eLearning Center is a pain.

I would be okay charging $5 for a session with some handouts or $10-$15 for a session with handouts and lunch.   My challenge is that our camp is also trying to break even so everyone (even other council groups) get charged for using camp facilities.  Thus - in addition to a few bucks of copies I have to cover $100-$200 worth of building usage.  I would have a hard time charging enough to cover my actual costs.

Still exploring ideas - it is much easier to add a few bucks to a longer session and a more active session like BALOO or IOLS.  I also need to do some checking because WoodBadge financials are separate from other training.  I dont know why and I dont know if WB has any excess that should be going back into the training budget.

Im the council training chair.  Up to now we have never charged people to attend basic (position-specific) training.  I have recently been told that the training team needs to "break even" financially.  We will be able to cut costs but we we will still need to add some income.

As we discuss adding a fee to sessions, we would love to hear how other councils do things and what lessons-learned you have.  If your council charges for basic training:
  *  How much?
  *  Do people get something (i.e. a book) which adds perceived value?
  *  How do people feel about being charged?
  *  If charging for training is fairly new, has it impacted attendance?

Thanks for the input.
 

Chess and Monopoly are favorites with this particular group.  A few years ago the big favorite was Apples to Apples.

I went through a phase of building pop-can stoves.  Went back to the whisperlite.

Here is what the G2SS says about stoves and fuels - emphasis is added:

Quote

Prohibited chemical-fueled equipment—Equipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can” stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed.

.[...]

Chemical fuels not recommended—Unleaded gasoline; liquid alcohol fuels, including isopropyl alcohol, denatured ethyl alcohol, and ethanol; and other flammable chemicals that are not in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions for chemical-fueled equipment.

I would commit doing that but would definitely not actually give the money to the Troop.  I agree with RememberSchiff that I would choose who receives the assistance - I want someone who will gain the most and who will give back the most, not whoever got there first.

I take a slightly different approach.  If someone is on the fence - probably they have been encouraged by several people but but are unsure of the value or hesitant because of the cost and time commitment.  I tell them to take the course, to go with an open mind, to do the work.  And if it is not the one of the best things they've done in Scouting I will pay for the course.  Ive never had any one take me up on the payment.

The reason I ask is, we don't have anyone in the troop with NT experience.  I wanted to get opinions from people who know both so that I can present that to the scouts who will be age-eligible.  Because our troop has lost many older scouts, the ones who could go are younger.  I want to present them with the wisdom of people with experience so that they can make an informed decision so they'll enjoy it as much as possible.

 

I appreciate all the advice!!

My question was really about using difficulty of the trek as a measure of which trek they would prefer.  Difficulty is so subjective that I dont think it really gives your Scouts any useful information.  You can certainly choose routes that are longer/shorter and more/less rugged at each place.   For me, "difficulty" determined almost entirely by how much physical training I did before the trip.

Regardless, I can say for sure that any Scout that enjoys a good adventure will enjoy both places.  But maybe for different reasons.

Im curious about why you phrased the question as "which is more difficult"?  Do you intend to use our opinion of relative difficulty as part of the research that you present to your youth?  Will the more difficult choice make them want to do that option more or less?  I suggest that the better way to present the differences is by describing the experience.  In fact, if you can find some youth who have been to each, invite them to talk about their experience.  

I love Philmont and believe every Scout/Scouter should go at least once.  But, I tell my Scouts that Philmont is kind of like hiking from summer camp to summer camp.  You dont go to Philmont for the backpacking, you go for the program and the Scouting environment / history.  If you want backpacking in the mountains you can do that somewhere else for a whole lot less money.

On the flip side, you dont go to BWCAW for the program because there is none.  You go to BWCAW because it is the real wilderness.  If you go through NT you'll have an interpreter along for the whole trek and (the good ones) add a great deal to the experience over self outfitting.

Just my $0.02 worth.

We meet once a month - the Sunday before the campout.  We run our skills so that a new skill starts the meeting after a campout and runs through the next campout (in theory the campout is the culmination).  The PLC being a week before the campout gives Scouts a chance to plan out the next month with a week to make phone calls etc as necessary.

BTW - a shout out to ItsBrian.  I enjoy the right now, first hand experience you contribute to the discussions.  Thank you for all that you do to improve your Troop.

Some people (our district advancement folks in particular) believe advancement is the most important part of Scouting.  But - advancement is just one of the seven _methods_ of Scouting.  The real measure of success is: are we instilling the values of citizenship, fitness, service and (the recently added) leadership.

In my Troop, we encourage them to advance and we give them incentive by putting a minimum rank on high adventure, but otherwise we leave it up to them.  As long as they are having fun they will stay involved.  As long as they are involved they are seeing/learning/living the values.  

I think a presentation or skit is only necessary if they do not understand the mechanics of merit badges - have an interest, get a blue card, meet with the counselor, do the work, etc

OR - a skit/presentation could be useful to pique their interest in the variety of badges available.

Im in Central Region and attended one of the meetings by invitation.  

That's an interesting dilemma - hopefully a lesson learned.  I dont think the Troop has any claim to the tents based on having stored them for 2 years.    

My initial thought would be that they bought the tents "for the patrol" and therefore they belong to the patrol.  Of course the patrol is part of the Troop which is wholly owned "department" of the Charter Org.  The funds contributed to help buy the tent would be considered a donation.  

I can also see the argument that the tents are owned by the Scouts who originally purchased them.  In that case, the remaining Scouts would need to contact the ones who have left and work something out between them.

Best things is for you (the adult leaders) is to mentor and guide the Scouts to reach their own decision.  Any answer coming from you will make you the bad guy.

.  Could they purchase an insurance policy for us and we'd reimburse them?  We're in New Jersey.  Thanks.

Yes, they could and they should.  As you read above, since they own the trailer/equipment they are the "proper" ones to hold the policy.  

HOWEVER - in my case, like many others, the CO does not understand the relationship.  Not only will they not pay for the insurance, they wont even add our trailer/gear to the policy they already have for their own trailer.  They insist they dont want any part of our "stuff" and I cannot get them to understand that they own it whether they want to or not.

Packs in my area do boy talks (usually the DE and/or Cubmaster) and fliers a couple of days before the recruiting event.  One pack does the event as a pack meeting so that the current families are there.  They provide hot dogs/chips/drinks.  Leaders mostly circulate and talk to the families during the meal.  After the meal the Den Chiefs and Den Leaders take the boys off to play games while the CM/CC talk to the parents.

Other thing that I think is important, especially for Cub ages - visibility in the community.  Have an activity at the town festival, get a banner and walk in the parades, certainly Scouting For Food, adopt a park or road to clean up (and have a sign).  All of these let people know Scouting is alive and well in the area.  I believe this helps with recruiting and also helps with fundraising.

That is too bad.  Not sure if we will go either.  Transportation wise it is a logistical challenge for us.  Their alternate choice is Isle Royale.  They will be making their final decision soon.

Isle Royale is a great trip too.  We did a week there in 2015 - happy to share info if they make that choice.

If you use BSA trademarked images or phrases the vendor of the tshirts must be licensed.  (http://licensingbsa.org/)

Lots of vendors to choose from (I use Advantage Emblem) but if you want to have a local shop do it they'll need to do some paperwork.

Licensed vendors have people to help with design issues.  I have only encountered two things with my designs 

1) they sometimes want (but sometimes dont) the copyright and trademark symbols.  

2) one of my logos uses the "BSA version" of a fluer dis le that is partially covered by another image.  On this they require that I put an additional FDL that is not covered.  They have always been satisfied with a tiny version in a color that mostly blends into the background.

What's with the snarky replies? Someone enjoyed scouts in their own way and you guys tell him he's wrong because it isn't good enough? Cchoat said he had one of his best experiences. He didn't say he had one of the best experiences. If you don't think it would be your best experience then why not just be happy for him rather than tell him he's doing something wrong?

 

Friendly, courteous, or kind?

I agree - everyone has different interests, motivations, strengths and weaknesses and those things change over time.  I spent 10+ years working directly with the youth as DL and ASM, now my roles are more behind the scenes.  I find it very rewarding to teach adult leaders (WB, and other sessions).  I see the same "ah ha" moments with adults as with youth.  And I know that I can impact more youth by helping adults to be better Scouters than by working with the youth directly.

 

I received no reply of course, but I will certainly be poking my head in when they run the course again later this year. If there is no improvement made, I may take action to get the approval needed to just step in and teach the darn thing myself. Scouters deserve better than what is currently being 'offered' to them.

Our council has not (as long as Ive been involved) run a UofS but I assume it is somewhat like the Merit Badge University days that we have.  That is - some group other than "the council" organizes it and recruits the instructors.  If that is the case, you may not get any satisfaction complaining to the UofS folks.

But - please do reach out to the council training chair, express your frustration with the poor quality, the editorializing and (most important) the not following the syllabus.  Im sure if you offer to lend your experience, that you will find yourself with a shiny new Scouting hat to wear.  

The announcement made me wonder if OWL and BALOO are coming closer together but I have not seen / heard anything explicitly saying that.

Was catching up on some training info and learned that BALOO has just changed to a "blended" course.  

What caught my eye from the announcement is "...required to have at least one BALOO trained adult on every Cub Scout den or pack overnight outdoor event - including Pack Camping and Webelos Den overnighters" 

My understanding has always been BALOO for a pack overnight and OWL for a Webelos overnight.  This does make sense now I think about it - the content of BALOO is about planning the outing and the content of OWL is about individual outdoor skills.

I took the first module - it says the online portion should take about 3 hours.  Going to have to take the rest of the modules to see what it covers.  

 

Introduction to the E-Learning Portion of Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO)

 

Cub Scout leaders who are interested in adding a camping component to their Pack activities are required to have at least one BALOO trained adult on every Cub Scout den or pack overnight outdoor event - including Pack Camping and Webelos Den overnighters. BALOO training sets a unit up to carry out a successful camping experience for Scouts.

 

 

As of May 2017, BALOO training is now comprised of two components - an online component, and a practical, hands-on component. Both components must be completed to qualify as a "Trained" Cub Scout outdoor leader, and to receive the BALOO recognition patch.

 

 

The online component contains introductory and basic information, and must be completed prior to the practical component. The goal of the online portion is to make the best use of time to allow leaders to experience as much as possible during the practical hands-on training. Successful completion of BALOO training should increase the confidence level of a Cub Scout Leader, and promote a willingness to plan a Pack overnighter. Camping activities and outings that are fun, based on the purposes of Cub Scouting, and successful, often whet the appetite of the Cub Scout, his parents, and the leaders to desire more of the outdoors.

 

 

The online portion of BALOO is available around-the-clock on the BSA Learn Center by logging into My.Scouting.org.

 

As always, Scouting U continually strives to provide content you need - when you need it.

source: https://bsalearn.learn.taleo.net/learncenter.asp?id=178414&DCT=1&sessionid=3-92ADB4E3-3797-465A-8500-62EEE5E18F8E&page=2

Thanks @@Stosh.  You explained that much better than I did, and you made a point that I entirely neglected to make - the "others first" or "servant" aspect.

Yes, often influence is an overt or intentional thing and often it is not for the good.  But by taking care of others you are building trust and showing that you care for them.  This influences them - not only to do something for me as I said, but also to not wander off or to "remain close for when the need arises again" as you said.  

I like the simplicity of your "take care of the boys" phrase.  It focuses attention on serving rather than influencing.  When you take care of the boys, the other things will fall into place naturally.

When it comes to "leadership" I have heard about it at school, at work, and on the Internet.  Many times I have asked for a definition, but have never gotten an adequate one.  Sometimes it is having a title and position, sometimes it is setting an example, sometimes it is a combination of the previous two and sometimes something else.  Leadership seems to be one of those terms that means whatever you want it to. 

 

I am afraid my perspective on leadership was become jaded over the years.  I have seen it used as an explanation and excuse for a great deal of unacceptable behavior.  Right now when I hear the word "leadership" I immediately stop listening.  This is a mistake, so I would like to know what you mean by "leadership"?

The definition I like to use is from John Maxwell (I strongly recommend reading his "21 irrefutable laws of leadership")

The True Measure of Leadership is Influence – Nothing More, Nothing Less.  True leadership cannot be awarded, appointed, or assigned. It comes only from influence, and that cannot be mandated. It must be earned.

 

To paraphrase @@Stosh - if people are not following, then you are not leading.  People are willing to follow when you have earned their trust, demonstrated that you care about them and when they agree with what you are trying to accomplish.  They may also "follow" when you do not have genuine influence, but that is not leadership (i.e. you are the boss and they have to do what you say else risk losing their job).  

Scouting is a such great environment for developing leadership because we are all volunteers.  Everything we do is cooperative and requires genuine influence.  If people do not trust me, or think I dont care, or do not like my style, then I cannot accomplish my goals for the unit/district/camp/whatever.  Worse - if I "rub people the wrong way" they may walk away entirely.

Is that taking care of the technology for the course?  Regardless, be a part of the fellowship and camaraderie is very energizing. 

For whatever it's worth, one of the examples I used was loyal, not trustworthy.  I had difficulty coming up with a good example of when it's ok not to be trustworthy.  I suppose if you agree to do something but then find out that your work is going to be used for evil purposes, and you decline to do whatever it is, you're not really being untrustworthy.  When you agreed, you did not have all of the relevant information, so your agreement was invalid.  

Of course, my apologies...