Jump to content


  • Content Count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Posts posted by Eagle94-A1

  1. 19 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

    And many nights and weekends to boot for a DE.  Plus, little opportunity for advancement.  Board members often see the talent in DE's and hire them into their own businesses.

    As a former pro, I cannot tell you  how many former coworkers either doubled, and in one case tripled, their salaries leaving the BSA to work for a board member or with the board member's company.

    • Upvote 2
  2. 1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

    District & Council programming is the purview of volunteers.  If the district programming is boring and the council programming nonexistent, that lies in the fault of the volunteer ranks.  For whatever reason, these volunteers either are don't exist in your council, are not up to your level or expectations, or are not fulfilling those roles.  Somewhere in your council some volunteers need to start focusing on fixing this situation.

    I do not think you can make that a blanket statement. Every council is different. In mine, we have had some great volunteers on the district and council levels who get fed up with the interference of professionals in their programs that they say the heck with it, if the DE wants to tell me how to do things, he can run it. It is a major problem.

    Best example I can give is district camporee chief being told told that a Cub Scout event would be held simultaneously at the same camp as the district camporee and IOLS training. This information was given 5 day prior to the camporee. Both the council training chair running the training and the camporee chief objected to the Cub Scout event occurring because it took areas of camp that were designated for events and would cause further parking issues, taking up more event areas. Camporee chief stepped down after the event, and the council training chair stepped down once the year was up. 

    Another camporee chief  found out his event was cancelled via email after it was announced at the district committee meeting. And the email came from a volunteer asking if it was true. He did not know about the decision.

    Sad thing is no one wants to run events anymore because of the constant interference. And the Scouts are suffering.

    • Thanks 1
  3. Council fee is $33 on top of everything else.

    Got a letter today saying all district/council camping activities, not just the Cub Scout Family Activities, needs  a certified Camp Administrator and the cost of the virtual training is $55. WHY DOES IT COST IF IT IS VIRTUAL AND REQUIRED FOR PROGRAM? ( emphasis)

    I can understand IOLS charging. had to pay for food, supplies, handouts, etc. And when I did Cub Scout Basic Leader Training, we charged $5 for snacks, handouts, and a resource CD I put together. The info on the CD was well worth the $5 by itself.

    But $55 for a virtual class taught by a volunteer?

    • Sad 1
  4. 37 minutes ago, MattR said:

    Anything covered in school is considered a waste of time. Cit badges are all a bust. 

    Sadly I have seen the schools NOT prepare the Scouts for the Cits. I was working on Cit Nation with a group in my car after doing  Washington DC.  3/5 had Civics in high school, and 1 was taking civics in HS. ONLY THE 5TH GRADE HOMESCHOOLED WEBELOS COULD ANSWER ANY OF THE REQUIREMENTS FOR CIT NATION! (emphasis, not shouting)



  5. In the past, the workbook that had all the approval signatures in it was the one that needed to be used, even if changed. HOWEVER if all three approval signatures are not in it, the new workbook needs to be used.

    For example Life Scout Louis begins the process, gets all the approval signatures, and completes the project using Workbook A. When the EBOR occurs, Workbook C is in effect. But since all the approval signatures are in Workbook A, and the  project was completed while Workbook A was in effect, it is valid. 

    Life Scout Laura starts of her project process using Workbook B. She has completed all the paperwork, and has gotten her SM's Signature. BUT Workbook C come out. Now Laura has to cut and paste everything into the new workbook, have the SM sign the new workbook, and get the rest of the signature in the new work book.

    Again that is the directions I have had for  as along as I have been an adult. BUT "always in motion, the future is." So check with your council advancement folks.


    • Upvote 1
  6. 1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

    Interesting that the numbers get closer as the scouts are older in that chart.  I don't know much about UK scouting.  Are there competing programs at the younger ages?

    In 1995 when I worked at scout camps in the UK, I encountered both Scouts and Guides. Guides tended to be younger. I know one Guide troop lost 1/2 their members when my friend, a female Queen's Scout, became  adult volunteer with the troop. A lot of her ideas, based on Scouts UK,  were what the girls wanted, but could not be implemented. So she started her own Scouts UK troop.

  7. 17 hours ago, yknot said:

    I don't know if anyone remembers the lead up and roll out of this but at the time we were all being invited to attend "conversations" with Mike Surbaugh and others about the possibility of adding girls to scouts. We were told research was being done, that any changes would be given full discussion, everything was years down the line, etc. Surveys were going out that they wanted you to respond to, which many of us did. 

    Unfortunately, they were all guided -- a strategy that BSA has utilized before. What that means is that the survey is designed in such a way that questions and responses are often manipulated to support a desired position.

    Do you mean the videos and town hall sessions that councils got notified to conduct and show days before the NSJ, and had to be completed about 1.5 to 2 weeks after the NSJ, when many Council Key 3s are at, so no meetings could be done?

    Yep I remember it well. I got hold of one of the videos early, THANK YOU SCOUTER.COM MEMBERS ( caps for shouting in praise)! I posted the link and cause a storm in my council as I forced my Council Key 3's hand in having the town halls. They did not   I remember those guided questions too. Yep if you didn't know what the purpose of the survey was, and answered honestly, everyone would be in favor. But two things:

    1. Why has the results of the MEMBERS  SURVEY (emphasis) never been published? I have seen the non-member survey results BSA did, but still have not seen the internal results

    2. Why did they exclude the Western Region's LDS Population from the results? Does anyone else remember reading that statement in the "mice type" at the bottom a BSA document? I wondered why they excluded a significant number of the membership, because this was before the announcement that they were leaving.

    17 hours ago, yknot said:

    So while we were all still in the middle of this supposedly initial examination and conversation phase, BSA abruptly pulled the plug on it all and said the research results were so overwhelmingly positive that the decision was made to allow girls to the program within a relatively short time frame.

    There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that the decision was made even before all the town halls, etc. First and foremost is the selection of Surbaugh as CSE. His career primarily focused on the coed programs of Exploring and Venturing. Exploring Execs (EE)/Venturing Execs (VE) are highly specialized. When I was looking into becoming a professional, I talked to an EE. He advised against specializing in Exploring because their was extremely limited opportunities for promotion because it was so specialized. I saw a bit of that with the EE, later VE when Venturing split off, I worked with. So how did Surbaugh become SE with his narrow field of experience with a co-ed program, unless the decision was already made? Also did anyone notice that the June or July 2017 applications BSA created used gender-neutral language? There are a few other things I cannot think of off the top of my head. BUT if you do a search on here from the time period, you can find a lot of other pieces that the decision was made.




    • Upvote 1
  8. 13 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

    In reality they did not want to do the hard work of figuring out why some units succeed and others fail, that would require maybe a real reflective look at the program. 

    William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt figured out why some units succeed and other fail in the 1929 SMHB: " OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." 

    He reiterated that theme throughout his career, with the version inhis last BSHB being "SCOUTING IS OUTING!"

    National has forgotten that as seen by the proliferation of "paperpushing" MBs, the condoning of "MB Mills" and the de-emphasis of the outdoors i.e. the 2016 CS program revisions and the 2017 revision to First Class rank requirement downgrading the number of campouts from 6 back down to 4., and the emphasis on 

    Best example are two of the troops I was in. Both troops had no feeder packs, but they were " Hiking and Camping" troops that normally had 9 weekend  campouts,  summer camp,  and a minimum of 2 day activities. Recruiting was word of mouth and Den Chiefs.  One troop folded because of Katrina. They lost their adults, and a bunch of Scouts. Current troop is surviving. We lost 1 Scout due to a death in the family. We lose another this month when he becomes an ASM. We lose my oldest in August, September at the latest when he goes off to college or becomes and ASM. BUT we picked up one who has several friends in the troop. We are getting 2 more at a Cross Over next month. COVID-19 screwed up our plans. but the troop has adapted and overcome.


    The biggest challenge I see is the loss of revenue from cookie sales due to girls joining BSA and not GSUSA. From the girls I have talked to, they want the outdoors. And GSUSA does not provide that. When their national president state they are an outdoor program  is proud of the fact that 15% of their girls camp at least once a year, that is not an outdoor program. Few girls means a smaller sales force. And the heavy focus on cookie sales is also a major turn off. Locally they spend about 2 -3 months doing cookie sales. Then their is the prestige factor. Eagle is a lot more prestigious in the public's eye because A) it has been called the same thing since 1910, and B) BSA has promoted and kept records. How many times has GSUSA changed their top award's name? And why is it that I can contact someone at the council office, used to be national office, and verify Eagle Scouts in my current troop all the way back to 1925, but the GSUSA cannot do the same?

    • Upvote 2
  9. Not just the shirts either.  I got 2 pairs of gen 1 Switchbacks, the ones with the zipper at the ankle. I was told they were sized big, so I ordered 2 pairs of the XL, my normal size, and the L, one size smaller. Not only were the XLs way too big, but if it wasn't for the built in belt the Ls would be to big too. Because I bought them at the local distributor on clearance, I could not return them. Thankfully I sold the XLs.

    I have one of the current Venturing Shirts in Medium, and it fits perfectly.

  10. 8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

    BSA has worked with NA in the past.  The problem is there will always be protesters and those that interpret things differently.  It's time to stop using another culture for our purposes.   IMHO, we'll be worse off because of it as NA awareness and knowledge will drop.  Sadly, our scouts first experience with NA culture will be at a local casino.  

    In  many ways, today's world is much more puritanical than the past and can't really talk about the hard stuff. 

    Here's the deal, even if you use your own culture, people will protest. Best example of that is the  Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club of New Orleans.  Formed in 1909 by members of several all black aid societies and clubs, it is a historically African American crew. Whites were not allowed to join until circa 1993/94 when the city of New Orleans created laws  that mandated integrations in the krewes that paraded in city limits... Traditionally their members wear grass skirts and black face. Blackface was used because at the time of club's creation, it was illegal for blacks to wear masks, but not wear makeup. Members of the club include former black mayors of New Orleans, black businessmen, politicians, sports figures, and other entertainers. One famous member and Zulu King was Louis Armstrong. Their charity work not only supports members in need, but also Toys for Tots, college scholarships,  the local school system, and the NOPD's Night Out Against Crime.

    Yet people who do not care about that historically black krewe do not care about it's customs and traditions and are demanding change. in 2019 CNN even did an article on the controversy. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/16/us/zulu-new-orleans-blackface/index.html

    • Upvote 1
  11. @InquisitiveScouter, thanks for the webinar. Very interesting in that there will be no pamphlet, just a digital guide for the counselor. My concerns are A) will it be maintained and B) will there be an archive of previous directives, guides, etc. I have personally seen how BSA has attempted to change history by ignoring facts. Best example was Dodgeball. At one point BSA was saying Dodgeball has never been an approved activity, despite it being an approved activity since at least 1922. Thankfully they removed that untruth from the FAQ.

    • Upvote 2
  12. 41 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

    I fear that the DEI MB will make the situation worse.  

    The racists will use DEI to reinforce their position: "Even the Boy Scouts are preaching the BLM propaganda!"

    The liberals will rejoice: "See!  We were right.  BSA admits to toxic masculinity!  Nah, nah, nah nah-nah." 

    Those in the middle trying to keep an open mind, which I hope includes most scouts, will keep their mouths shut; while their private thoughts gravitate towards the side with the most concrete examples.  

    While the high-minded fantasies celebrate, the divide grows underneath .


    And it is not just racists who have issues with the DEI MB. We have lost some Scouts who families are LEOs because of national's BLM statement. And from posts on FB, it appears BSA is coordinating with BLM on this MB. I wonder how many Explorer posts have been lost as a result. I found out the local one is ceasing to exist. Do not know why, but they were extremely active. Now when I go to their site, it is all a different  youth program.

    As for "most scouts, will keep their mouths shut," it is already happening in academia and business. I was diversity trainer, sat on the diversity committee, organized diversity activities, etc.  But I soon was replaced because instead of teaching about differences, I was teaching about how we are all the same. I talked about building relationships with those who were not like us through communication. sadly some folks believe if you do not agree 100% with them, you are the enemy, and will treat you like such.

    • Thanks 1
    • Upvote 2
  13. 22 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

    And leave it at that? Or is even this so much that we are going to see units defer this to parents?

    That is what BSA has historically done, and several units will continue to do. As others have posted, this is such a landmine, that even public school systems do not officially do this.


    3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Can you imagine how the merit badge mills will go with this one??



    • Haha 1
    • Upvote 1
  14. 1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    As a parent, I would not want anyone else talking to my kids about topics of sexual orientation and gender identity.  Our public schools don't even tread this ground... 

    I have been told that 2 units in my district will NOT have a counselor doing these discussions for the very reasons you cite. Instead they will be covered by the parents.

    • Like 2
  15. My concern is durability. The new uniform shirts are OK. Pants on the other hand, not so much. I had to return a pair of 3 month old pants, and with some difficulty. I had to remind the clerk of the lifetime warranty on them, and then that I had no  issues contacting Charlotte about the issue. Second pair lasted a bit longer, 5 years. I am still wearing pants and shorts from the 1990s from when I worked in supply and had to wear the uniform 5-7 days a week, depending upon the time of year.

    • Upvote 1
  16. It has already started. OA can no longer do Native American themen AOL or Cross Over Ceremonies.  Ceremony teams currently have 3 options for Pre Ordeal, Ordeal, Brotherhood,  and Vigil Ceremonies: regalia approved by the Nation you researched, uniform, or all black shirt and pants. And there is talk that they are in the process of changing things in 2021.

  17. 49 minutes ago, David CO said:

    I don't see any point in having in-person YPT sessions.  It is a one-sided conversation.  There is no discussion.  

    When I have taught it, there has been Q&A, discussions, etc. We want people informed. We want people asking questions. We want people to get more out of it than just watching the videos.

  18. 2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

    Hundreds of lawsuits and thousands/millions in compensation due to injuries and abuse would indicate that volunteers need additional training.

    You need to look at the bulk of those lawsuits.  They happened as far back as 1937. This was before Mandatory Reporting Laws. California circa 1968 was the first, and then it only applied to medical personnel. Youth group volunteers would not become mandatory reporters until the 1980s to 1990s depending upon jurisdiction.

    Prior to that time, the law required the victims to report it. If BSA reported it without the support of the victim, or more specifically the victim's parents, then the BSA would be legally liable for slander and defamation of character. BSA, as well as every school and youth organization at the time, had their hands tied.


    2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

    Again, you see to simply hate Youth Protection Training. Why?

     Me personally I think YPT is extremely important. So you cannot say I hate it. I know  several victims, and had to deal with and report YP violations. My problem with YPT is the following the online format. I honestly believe that YPT is so important, it needs to be in a class with certified instructors. Watching videos is fine, but there needs to be discussion as well. And you can read elsewhere about online connectivity issues many volunteers in my neck of the woods have.


  19. 1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

    ...how about fixing the YPT training so that it records the completion of the course. I'm quite sure that many will reply "Well, I didn't have any trouble" but there are many that willing to just forget about it because they have much trouble with it, have completed it more then once, and still can't print a certificate or get their ticket punched.  Congratulations to the BSA for encouraging membership, training and growth.  It's broke and needs fixing.

    You are NOT the only one with this issue. My wife did YPT 3 times one day to get the certificate to finally show up. That was 4.5 hours of her life wasted. And we are lucky, we are in a small town with highspeed internet. That is another reason why the live class my district does is popular.

    And I agree, a lot of people do not see the issues with BSA IT systems. They say I am not tech savvy, etc. Yet I did tech support with my old job, and do minor tech support with the new one.


  20. Sadly I think you are right.

    On of the duties of an advancement committee is to "See to an effective merit badge program administered at a council or district level that functions according to national procedures and recruits, approves, trains, and makes known sufficient counselors to meet the needs of the council." (emphasis added) But summer camps started the process of of degradation by allowing non-MBCs to teach. MBUs further the degradation. We are now at the point of online MBUs, and parents asking for and MBC to contact them for their child. 

  21. Yes the MBC  system is screwed up on a variety of levels.

    First and foremost is that MBC is a district/council POR with the MBC having the option to limit to a unit. Units should NOT be having folks in their system a

    Second if you had a working advancement committee, they should be the ones tacking down the MBCs, making sure they are registered, keeping accurate lists, etc It was only when my wife was adding a MB with council that she discovered she was not registered again. Also they are the ones that are the  to make sure folks have the credentials to do the MB instead of  anyone with a pulse.

     Third, BSA;s IT systems have a history of being useless. Look at all the problems currently going on. Add to the fact that some areas of the country do nothave reliable internet, and you got units who won't or cannot use BSA's systems.

    • Upvote 1
  22. @CynicalScouter

    Reviewed the power point. My comments are the following

    1. Why is the goal 98% and not 100% since you cannot register without current YPT?

    2. Are you not supposed to be notified when YPT via email is about to expire? That is what I have been told, although I have been told a lot about BSA's IT structure that I am still waiting on. When I teach the live YPT, I add my name to the list for renewal, so I do not know. Or does the 98% mean CURRENT YPT certification.?

    3. Did not see in the slides where anything about "off the books volunteers." Where are you seeing that as I cannot find it? 

    4. What is the actual % of adults who never took YPT and are registered? What is the actual % of adults who have expired YPT? And what is the number of adults with current YPT that are not registered?


    Please do not think I am attacking you. Rather I want information. What I have been told and taught over the years is being contradicted, and i want the truth. I have had issues with the BSA saying one thing, and doing something else in the past. And it is getting frustrating.

  • Create New...