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Posts posted by Eagle94-A1

  1. 4 hours ago, MattR said:

    While I like your idea I doubt it would happen. The MB is dumbed down for a 12 year old to pass. Most high school students sleep through it. I think most high school students that I know would have no problem with passing the cit test. But that is a higher than average group. 

    Don't know about the US Citizenship test, but when I had a group of 5 HS aged Scouts who had Civics already and a 5th grade homeschooled Webelos, NONE of the HS students could talk to me about the various components of the Cit Nat MB, except their favorite monument in DC, which we did the day before. The 5th grader on the other the other hand, did know the answers and could talk about them.

  2. 2 hours ago, Jackdaws said:

    We had to drop committee members because for whatever reason, couldn't seem to find that 90 or so min. to take it at home(really lame excuses). 

    With all due respect, while the training may be only 90 minutes, depending upon geographical location, it may take over 4 hours to download the materials to do the training. I am fortunate in that I have high speed internet at home. But other folks in my district, which is extremely rural, do not have access top high speed internet.  One reason why we begged the SE to be allowed in person YP training, and had a group of about 12 from all over attend.

    • Like 1
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  3. There are a lot of variables in the openess issue IMHO. Sometimes the pro's know the issue will be contentious and they don't want to deal with it until they absolutely have too. I put the Philmont mortgage in that category. Selling a council camp would be another. While a volunteer council committee is suppose to approve these decisions, in reality most committees are "yes men"

    Another reason for lack of openess is to prevent people from finding out how screwed up things really are. And sometimes that lack of openess applies to the DEs. When I interviewed and looked at information at my job interview and first planning conference, a lot of things that another council did when I interviewed with them didn't happen. It was several months into the job that I found out the full extent of how screwed up the council was.

    Sometimes the lack of openess is because the professional does not have the capability to change things directly. They work behind the scenes to correct matters to the extent possible so that those parts of the movement that are working, that are making a difference, do not get damaged by the revelation of issues.

    Sometimes the lack of openess is the result of prior experience. I know one SE who as a DFS  with  2 FDs and 12 DEsunder him that encountered a problem, revealed it, and fixed it. His reward: "promotion" to SE of a council of 1 FD and 4 DEs.


    • Upvote 3

  4. 31 minutes ago, ianwilkins said:

    Anyone else think that was going to go:


    ....is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. - Yoda


    "Impressive. Most impressive."


  5. 1 hour ago, MattR said:

    As for the helmet, I was taught to leave it on. It's easier to tape the helmet down to a board than taping or holding a head.


    At one accident I was stopped and provided first aid at, the first person on the scene wanted to take off the motorcycle helmet off the potential spinal injury. The girl I was dating at the time, myself, and two others who approached the scene at the same time we did heard the initial person say he was going to remove the helmet, and all 4 of us screamed "NO"  at the same time. That's when the other couple announced they were an ER doctor, and a trauma nurse. Taking off the helmet would have required moving the head, which was not an option.

  6. I had one of those clown/know it all Scouts in an Indian Lore MB class. I didn't intentionally mean to shut him down, it just happened. We were discussing games, and the topic was lacrosse. He asked which is the more dangerous: lacrosse or rugby. At first I told him, "I don't know." and the smirk on his face appeared. Then thinking about it I said, " While the joke with rugby players is 'give blood, play rugby," there are still rules and no consequences for losing. Whereas for some First Nations, lacrosse is called "the little brother of war." There were little to no rules, violence, injures and even death on the field can and did occur, and for some nations the losers were enslaved or even executed by the victors. So in my opinion Lacrosse is the more dangerous game." You could have heard a pin drop after that response.And I had no more problems with him.

    • Haha 1

  7. 2 minutes ago, SSScout said:

    Yep. As a Sub Teacher in Middle School, I've often seen the general reticence of kids to stick their necks out, ask questions,  be "up front".  Some schools insist on the kid waiting on instructions (that's okay) but then when they wait to see what the teacher wants them to say, rather than saying what THEY want to say.... 


    Seeing this in my CCD, aka Sunday School, class.I teach Confirmation 2nd year, and had most of the students last year. Several I have known since Cub Scouts. It is like pulling teeth to get them to open up and have conversations with.

  8. I've been in that situation once as a youth, and I was completely ignored by the adults in charge. Thankfully it was not anything as major as a potential spinal injury.I did what I was told, sit down and be quiet. I was 12 years old when that happened. Yes it was hard to talk to the teachers and parents on that field trip. Thankfully someone with training eventually took charge.

    It did get easier as I got older, but that had to do with training and experience. At 16 and a certified lifeguard with CPR and first aid certifications needed for the job, I was able to take charge of a situation from adults until emergency services arrived and transported the victim to the hospital. My age only came up when I was asked to drive the victim's car to the hospital. I had not received my license yet.

    Having the scenario of a bumbling adult is a good one and I think should be used. Also having a peer doing something incorrectly, and having the Scout need to make corrections is also good. With the current American Heart Association Basic Life Support Training, part of it includes how to politely, but firmly correcting coworkers who are doing something wrong, i.e. not switching to 15:2 compressions to breaths for 2 man Infant/child CPR.

    Sadly I think the problem is a societal one. People tend  to equate age with authority or ability. Heck even the BSA has fallen for this. Look how 18-20 year old adults are no longer considered for Youth Protection purposes. But my all time favorite is regarding Safety Afloat, I remember back in the day, non-swimmers and beginners needed a certified lifeguard to be in a canoe. SO when I came back from the UK and went on  a canoe trip with the troop about 3 days later, I was a "non-swimmer" because I had not taken a yearly swim test at summer camp. So I had to be in a canoe with a 16 year old lifeguard. Irony is that I taught and certified him as a lifeguard before going to the UK that summer. Now Safety Afloat only requires an adult over 21 who has passed the swim test to ride with a non-swimmer or beginner. Me personally, I'd rather have the non-swimmer of beginnner with a 15-20 year old lifeguard instead of a 21+ adult who barely passed the swim test.


    33 minutes ago, David CO said:

    If your kids will generally do as their told, I wouldn't mess with it.  An occasional mishap is a small price to pay for having respectful and obedient children.

    I don't know. If the mishap would be life changing like a spinal injury or lead to death, I do not know if I could live with myself if I had the knowledge, skills, and abilities to treat the victim and do nothing because someone older than me told me sit down and be quiet. I did it once because it was non-life threatening, but still had a hard time dealing with it afterwards.



  9. 3 hours ago, PACAN said:

    @carebear3895  the communication flow or lack there of has always amazed me. The fact the professionals do not (or claim to not know) about things before the volunteers is amazing.  The last fiasco on the rate increase where the councils feigned ignorance was ridiculous.   I was told that all the SEs have a weekly conference call with national and they didn't know anything until the press released it is either incompetence or dishonest.    

    Or if this is how national runs the organization, Mr. mosby has lots of work to do. 


    From discussions with pros, friends and experience, it is mixed.  Sometimes the SE knows but doesn't tell the subordinates.The DEs and other underlings find out from volunteers who get it from online sources. I know I have upset my SE twice now releasing info on the district webpage has been posted here or on FB, before the council has released anything.

    But on occasion, SE are surprised too. There was one instance where something got leaked by someone at National and it made the news. I forgot what it was, but it was allover the news. It was being posted here and on FB before SE's were informed. I was told the al SEs had a post 5PM Central time zone emergency conference call, and the DEs got one as soon as it was done

  10. On 1/14/2020 at 5:16 PM, John-in-KC said:

    Leave it be. You don’t know how many others nominated him. 

    I once sat on the Vigil Committee in my role as chapter adviser. I remember one outstanding "youth" ( in quotation marks as he was a youth in the OA, and ASM with his troop) with about an 1.5" pile of nominations for him. Needless to say he got Vigil.


    On question, does the person nominating serve as Vigil sponsor? I ask because I have seen it where  the nominee is the sponsor, presenting him as a candidate at the Vigil Call Out. 2/3 people I nominated I sponsored. the 3rd I let his dad sponsor him.

  11. @ParkMan ,


    Our DFS required DEs to camp at camporeed. Heck one guy just got out of the hospital and on light duties was told he better be at camporee or start looking for a new job.

    As for picking up supplies, yes that was an expected duty by the DFS. I vividly remember driving two hours round trip to drop off bb guns because the DFS was furious that I told someone they could pick them up whenever they could. 

    I could go on, but I don't have the time. As you can see, different councils have different expectations. 

  12. 55 minutes ago, skeptic said:

    And that may be the end of your honeymoon, even as he goes on one.  Unless the spouse is already aware of the awful schedule and constant pressure, and they can keep the family income ahead of the game, you will lose him.  I have seen many divorces over the years of struggling and really potentially excellent DE's.  It destroys their marriages and often destroys their love of Scouting that led them there in the first place.  Some do come back, and those areas are fortunate to get them as volunteers; but many simply disappear and even if they have kids eligible, do not have them in the program.  Sad, but far too true.  Or so it seems to me.


    SO.VERY.TRUE. A fellow pro told me the divorce rate is extremely high. One coworker was on wife #3 when I started, and was in the process of going through a divorce with her when I left. Another DE's wife stayed with him long enough to complete law school, and then filed for divorce as soon as she passed the bar. 

    My own wife knew what she was getting into as we dated while I was a DE. She didn't realize the full physical, mental, and emotional stress the job causes until we got married and she moved in with me.  After 6 weeks of marriage, she gave me an ultimatum: her or the job.

    And she could not understand why I continued to volunteer after I left, until our oldest got involved. She can handle the unit level, but anything on the district and council, forget  about it.


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    21 minutes ago, IndyScouter said:

    The log book also helped us find any patterns to injuries in specific areas of camp.  Our first aider and camp director would sign each book at the end of the week after they reviewed the entries and together discussed any changes to the program that could be made to lessen the number of injuries of campers. 

    I worked at one camp that was nearly shut down due to GI bug. Long story short, we had the council physician and others come in do a second health inspection. They could not find anything, and then checked the medical logs. They detesrmined that one troop had some sick that infected everyone at the camp. I found out 6 months later at Christmas it was my cousin's son who was sick and infected everyone. She sent him to camp anyway because they paid for it and they were not going to lose any money, 😠

    • Thanks 1

  14. 9 hours ago, SSScout said:

    About ten years ago, I once witnessed a DE being asked by a new Cub leader if he (the DE) would come to their meeting and speak to the new parents.  His response was (quote) "I don't do that. I have people who  do that. " He meant the District Commissioner(s), of which I was at the time one.  The Cub leader was angry, rightfully so, and we talked later.   That DE was gone in about 6 months.  Is this National's attitude in a nutshell?  

    I do not know about National, but it was the attitude my DFS had. I had a new, struggling unit that my church started. I didn't have an active commissioner corps to help them, so I did it myself. My DFS found out, and told me to stop.Would not hear of the reasons why I was helping: no commissioner, my church's pack, my men's club asked me to help, etc. Ditto with me going to OA meetings and events. Told me " You don't have time to play Indian." Here's the irony of that situation, me attending the Ordeal, doing cheerful service in the rain, and working with the ceremony team thoroughly impressed the Scouters from my district in attendance. That created a lot of good will, and broke some barriers. And it did it with not only the Arrowmen, but all the Scouters as word got around that "We have ourselves a REAL DE!"

    • Upvote 2

  15. 1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

    All you youngsters...really back in the day is was NEI 1 and 2.  Even then you took NEI 1 after 90 - 120 days.  NEI 2 was taken at least a year or so later.  Mine was in Irving, big thing was to go to National Office and see the CSE office

    I don't remember who it is, but someone on here did their entry level professional training at Schiff Scout Reservation back when national HQ was in NJ.

    Yep seeing the national HQ and CSE's office were big things for me too. What was coincidental was one of my council's camporee chiefs sent a letter and rope for the CSE tie into a square so that it could be awarded as a prize. The letter and rope were on his desk.

    40 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

    Ours was in Texas as well at Scouting U (formerly the Center for Professional Development), which has just recently closed.  

    All entry level professional training has now moved to the Summit. 

    I was told new DEs now have to do a lot of online modules prior to attending, and that the course is only a week now.

    9 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

    Same here on the DE churn, we really do not get attached to them.

    We also go through DEs and have major vacancies.

    I was a DE 22 years ago. My immediate replacement lasted approx. 3 months. He didn't make it to PDL1. His replacement lasted about 2 years, had a nervous breakdown with the stress of the job, and left. There was no replacement for about a year. Since 2004,  have had 2 dedicated DEs. The rest were either DE's having us as an additional district or DDs/FDs covering the vacant  territory. We currently have not had a full time dedicated DE since 2010

  16. Back in the day, Professional Development Level (PDL) 1 had to be done at the 3-4 month mark for 2 weeks. And some DEs didn't make it to that mark. At my PDL-1, one person had her resignation letter already typed and prepared to be submitted after she returned. As CareBear said the reason  she was quitting was a lousy manager,and she felt she deserved a vacation putting up with the lousy manager. 12 to 16 months after PDL-1, was PDL-2 for a week. I know of 2 DEs compatriots went to it, the rest either quit or had it cancelled on them. Do not know of any coworkers going to PDL-3. We also went through 9 DEs and 2 midlevel managers in the 19 months I was a pro.

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  17. I was camp health officer for day camp and here are my thoughts.

    1) Take the online training.

    2) Make sure you have a copy of the Council Physician's Standing Orders. If the council won't give you a copy of them, WALK AWAY! Good friend of mine walked away as Day Camp Health officer because the council would not give him a copy because they said it  only applied to summer camp, when it it now part of the NCAP standards.

    3) Keep some gatorade or other electrolyte drink in the frig. As others have said, dehydration is common. IN fact at my day camp it was the #1 illness.

    4) Follow those Standing Orders and your certification/licensing protocols TO THE LETTER! You don't want to put your career in jeopardy.

    5) Make sure you are easily accessible in an emergency. We had one health officer on loan from the US Navy. Long story short, he would take off and go off roading in the primitive camp of teh reservation in the HMMWV. Nobody knew where he went off to, until he walked back to the main  camp after after flipping the HMMWV           

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  18. 35 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

    Ideally this is how it should work.  But here are the usual results, from my personal experience:

    1. Pro shouts down volunteer.  Sometimes in public.

    2.  It isn't always the DE.  It can be another pro throwing their weight around, sometimes the SE.

    3.  The district chair is often no help because a) they are a name on a spreadsheet and not a real chair b) they meekly go along with the pro and won't back the volunteer, usually because they aspire to be a future WB CD, have an award pending, etc.) or c) they're completely in cahoots with the professional staff and won't back their district volunteer staff.

    As mentioned earlier, if you are in a council that functions soundly, please count your lucky charms.  I've been in six councils and some of them were absolute chaos for volunteers.

    You forgot #4: Volunteer is replaced in their position by someone who will do the professional's will (Not only have I seen this,  I was even encouraged to do this when I was a DE to have more compliant members of the district committee) 

    #5: Pro, specifically SE, finds some reason revoke volunteers membership ( seen that happen twice, and it almost happened a third , all because the volunteers he did stand up to the professionals)


    57 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

    If the volunteer can't stand up to the DE for whatever reason - then the volunteer need to go to the district chair.  The district chair can deal with the politics of the professional service.

     As Desert pointed out, chairman have been usually figureheads who do the professional's bidding. Heck I was even told to look for malleable people of influence and  affluence by my SE back when I was a DE.

    Personally I would rather have a loyal opposition who had the best interests of the Scouts as their #1 concern. I know when I was DE, there were indeed challenging meetings with disagreements. But everyone respected each other since we all shared #1 goal. 


    • Upvote 3

  19. 6 hours ago, ParkMan said:

    I'll admit - I don't see quite the same thing.  In our council, our professional staff is quite busy.  But, for the most part, the things they worry about are things that most volunteers don't care that much about (fundraising, membership, etc...).

    The bigger issue I see is that ownership at the council level really isn't clear.  We don't do a really good job of letting folks know who is responsible for specific things.  So, we have lots of volunteers with ideas that get given to the professionals.  Yet, many of those ideas have little to do with professionals and are really volunteer functions.  Our professionals don't do a great job of making that clear.  

    For example - a volunteer will take to the DE about some change that needs to happen with training - that we should hold a specific class at a specific time, etc.  But, professionals really have little to do with training.  It should be much clearer who a recommendation goes to - but it's not because most of us don't know or understand the structure of how things work in a council.

    I'd think this is the kind of thing the CSE could instruct his program & HR teams to deal with.  More clearly define professional & volunteer responsibilities.  

    I am very glad to hear your council does things like it is suppose to do. Sadly not every SE does that. I can tell you in my some councils I have been in, pros will ignore volunteers in charge of activities, make additional demands, and even overruling volunteers who are in charge of events to the point that they take over. It has gotten to the point the point that some longtime volunteers no longer have anything to do with the council because of the professionals.

    • Upvote 3

  20. 8 hours ago, SSScout said:

    ?Que?   Why would a parent want to write a "recommendation" letter?   Wouldn't we expect that be ipso facto a wonderful, slightly prejudiced opinion?   

    One parent was so made that the son was enlisting in the USAF that not only did they refuse to write the letter, but also kicked him out of the house. He was delayed entry, and spent his senior year living with the SM and his family. It was a mess.


    • Sad 1

  21. 5 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

    In the various councils I've belonged to, I've generally found the professional staff (above DE level) to be quite resistant to input from the field.  They are either in problem admiration mode or dismissive.  I fully understand that sometimes the answer is no, but open dialogue is not their strong suit.  One way communication.  This culture extends up to National as well. 

    As @Eagle1993 mentioned earlier, this is a definite need for more transparency.

    As a former professional, and a district/council level volunteer in several councils...







     Image result for nailed it meme

    • Upvote 2

  22. 2 hours ago, qwazse said:

    Thanks. You confirm several of my suspicions -- especially regarding the Venturing committee's obsession with finding the perfect advancement model ... when that is the last thing concerning most venturers.

    When Venturing came out in August 1998, it was never about advancement, it had recognitions.  Do the professionals at Nationalhave any experience in Venturing?