Hedgehog

I understand all of the general fundraising and agree I just get hung up on popcorn.  Some of our scouts go out and sell, some of our scouts do not the the extra time to sell.   The parents of scouts that do not sell are happy to just write a check for camp fees.  However the parents of the kids selling popcorn are expecting the commission to pay down their scouting expenses.   Perhaps we need to reset that expectation, however I can guarantee this will end popcorn sales for us. 

 

Perhaps we could say all popcorn sells go into a campership fund and the any parent can apply for a scholarship from the fund? 

 

Also if this makes a difference for Scout accounts we are talking about an entry on a spreadsheet not an actual bank account.

Jeff:

As long as popcorn is in line with the guidelines I posted above (only a portion to the scout -- some to the unit and some to council/national) , it should be OK because the benefit is arguably insubstantial. I think you idea of a campership fund is good... unless the only people who get camperships are those that did the fundraising -- then it just looks like a subterfuge (or as the IRS sas, form over substance).  The private benefit is still there is the "account" is a spreadsheet divying up the amounts in the Troop's account (see above posts for secondary analysis on substantiality)

I'm more about doing the right thing than doing things the right way. Lord knows there are enough rules/laws guidelines and some simply run contrary to what we are trying to do or make it 10 times more difficult to get from point a to point b. If a scout is active fundraising and it saves his parents from writing a few checks I don't see that as a personal benefit, it is not like he is allowed to go buy camping equipment or even uniforms, it covers his cost for a troop 2 night weekend campout, not enough for anyone to break a sweat.

 

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No one is getting arrested at no score, no one loses feel good youth league for keeping track of the score on a scrap of paper and no one is going to get in trouble for keeping score of what portion of a pot of money is attributed to certain people. I know from experience, NOT keeping track of who is responsible for exactly what portion of that pot of money causes troop financial problems and gets you a lot of grief from some scout families who earned a whole lot better.

It really doesn't matter if you think there is a private benefit. Rather it only matters if the IRS thinks so.  Any scout account is a private benefit based on my interpretation of the statute, regulations and case law.  As discussed above, even if there is a private benefit it is permissible if it is insubstantial.

Tax exempt organization have lost their tax exempt status for having individual fundraising accounts.  So you won't be arrested, but your chartered organization's tax exempt status could be in jeopardy.

One of the reasons for lengthy threads is that people may actually start understanding one another.  It's pretty common to wind up talking past one another repeatedly!

 

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2)  When Cub Scouts graduate into Boy Scouts,  I will pay out money from accumulated ISA for  troop membership,  activities, outings, camp and such.   The family just needs to provide me with receipts for their payment,  or something like a bill from the Scout Troop if we're going to pay for summer camp or whatever.

 

Does that sound like a reasonable practice?

So, in my view, there is a private benefit (which would be the same as if it reduced fees for a Cub Scout campout).  It is much better that the pack is paying an expense rather than giving it to the scouts and saying "I hope you use it for something scout related."  If the troop is part of the same CO, there is no problem in transferring funds (the Pack's funds belong to the CO and the Troops funds belong to the CO because the CO "owns" both of them).  If it is not part of the CO, I think that the expenditure is consistent with the pack's mission to develop youth though scouting -- after all, most packs are viewed as sources of boy scouts.  But this is a grey area.  In the Bryan on Scouting post, http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/12/03/individual-scout-accounts/it said:

“If the unit is part of the same chartered organization, I certainly see no problem with that,†McGowan says. “The chartered organization owning both units, no problem. If we now talk about changing chartered partners, the IRS has not issued any guidance.â€

 

 

Adults are key to the success of any scouting program, but especially a boy run program. A boy run program is these hardest program for adults to run because the actions on the adults side go against our parenting nature. Still, one cannot send a group of 10 year old boys in the woods by themselves and expect them to come back with their annual planning completed. There is a process just to get most of those 10 year olds confident enough to go from their tent to the latrine on a moonless night.

 

The real skill of being a boy scout leader of a true boy run program is developing processes for building confidence and initiative in boys to do their own scouting. That is not as simple as it sounds and those are the kind of skills we experienced "been their done that" scouters need to pass on to other scouters. Sure 300 ft separation sounds great until the new scouter gets into the reality of doing it. Adults are not evil, they just have grow and learn how to be good scout leaders just like the guy who brags of having 40 something years of experience. That is all this discussion is about. How can we help poor scout leaders become fair, fair scout leaders become good and good scout leaders great? How? 

I'm in complete agreement.  One of my favorite Baden-Powel' attributed quotes is “Scouting is a game for boys under the leadership of boys under the direction of a man.â€

I think this is a really good plan. UoS is also the best way to "throw down the gauntlet" to other troops to step up their game. The down-side is you might be stuck with the same length for each course so you might want to re-balance the load. Talk to the course coordinators early and often about that.

 

I also suspect that folks might only attend some courses in your track, so take some from your "100 best" and insert into the other courses (e.g. "5 Best Hikes" in backpacking, "5 Best Places for a Trail Breakfast" in cooking, etc ... sort of a Boys' Choice Award).

 

Definitely have your boys teach the courses while adults assist with props and audio visuals. It's a serious time commitment for your boys, so figure out an appropriate award. (Ideally this could include a campout that weekend in the vicinity of the course -- perhaps really close to where the dutch oven course is )

 

Be prepared for a "next step", Some of your boys/adults may be asked to visit a troop or patrol to help them lay out a solid 1-2 year plan that gets them where they want to be.

Thank you for the ideas and encouragement.  I like the idea of a campout that weekend -- I'm pretty sure some ribs and corn bread done in a Dutch Oven with some cole slaw and apple sauce on the side would be a good draw -- with Dutch Oven apple pie and brownies for dessert.

A couple of years ago our council considered holding multiple Scouting University's

I suggested to do an outdoor oriented version at our Scout Camp

 

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I wouldn't expect anyone to become an expert after these but they could come away with a solid background to be able to practice further on their own.

I like the idea of doing it outdoors.  When I did UofS two years ago, I enjoyed the activities that you could actually do something rather than those just sitting and listening.  Eating something is an additional benefit.

One subject of skills I see left out a lot but is very important for everyday scouting is woods tools. Most adults have never touch an axe or tree saw, much less use them. I read once that the tree saw is the number one cause of emergency room visits for scouts.

I haven't done much with tree saws (although the boys did some at the camporee last weekend).  My favorite is when the two older guys started a contest on a campout to see who could saw through a branch the quickest.

However, I have taught a bunch of the boys how to baton and chop wood with my 7 inch Ontario RD7 -- I guess that is why my son wants a Becker BK-9 for Christmas.   

What skills are necessary when a couple of the boys have a melt down 5 days into a 9 day trek in Philmont?  

 

The next chapter in the syllabus is what are the psychological dynamics of an adult melt down on a trek? 

Been there, done that.  On our 50 miler this summer, each of us (except maybe our SPL) hit our own walls.  Blisters on day one from shoes not tied tightly enough, blisters on day two from having done 15 miles in 2 days, sore legs, 1,000s of feet of pointless ups and downs, an adult (me) who packed too much in his pack (fear is heavy), long days on the trail, a scout on day three who says he didn't want to go in the first place, two adults who pushed their limits of endurance to the point where they were moving only through sheer determination, one scout who lost it on the last day because he couldn't take anymore.

I'm not sure you can teach those skills -- it comes from a lifetime of learning.

The BSA looses more scouts during their first year (six months really) in the troop than any other age group. The reason, in so many words, was they didn't trust the boy run program. The shock of going from adult guidance for 11 years to boy guidance in just a few weeks is more than many boys can tolerate. THAT is the single biggest reason the New Boy Patrol was created.  

So what you're saying is introducing new boys into a boy-led program whether it is through the NSP or just full steam ahead doesn't make a difference in the loss of first year scouts.

 

 

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How would one justify adult led vs. boy led emphasis for first year scouts as having any effect on this situation of major loss the first year?

 

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I'm sure there are a ton of other better ways of doing it out there done by thousands of different units, but my boys are showing advanced leadership skills after their first year in the program...and even more importantly, they are having fun doing it.  Maybe after a coupe more years of this kind of leadership development, they'll be old enough for BSA's NYLT program of "real scout" leadership.

I haven't seen a significant drop off by crossing over scouts in our unit.  Over the last three years, there were 1 scout out of around 28.  He joined on crossing over because his parents wanted him to, never went on a campout and didn't return the following September.

Any boy joining our Troop KNOWS it is boy-led.  Our guys are proud of it and tell the Webelos when they visit.  I've heard the kids tell their parents after the visit about how cool that is.  We have found that the new guys love it when they are stuck in a patrol at our weekly meetings from day one (the PLs -- not so much because by March they were just getting their patrol running smoothly) I think the KEY is that we get the new guys out on one or two campouts before the end of the school year.  Also, we have around 70% of the crossovers attend summer camp.  Get them outdoors and get them hooked.

That being said, the transition for the new guys does have some adult support.  They (and their parents) know that the adults have their backs.  I like to think that we act as liaisons.  They come to us with a question (that is what they are trained to do in Cubs) and we refer them to an older scout.  I joke a lot with the boys, "obviously, you've mistaken me for someone in charge... we're boy-led, he's in charge" or "See, it says "Boy Scouts" on my shirt... I'm not a Boy... Ask one of your Boy leaders").  I also talk to them about leadership... "leadership is about being responsible for others, the first step is to learn to be responsible for yourself."  There also are a lot of times that the boys need adult encouragement -- especially at summer camp.  I'd like to think that that there was more to the senior boys rejoicing when I showed up at summer camp mid-week by jumping up and down and yelling "Mr. Hedgehog is here!" that the fact that I brought the Dutch Ovens, the makings for dump cakes and marshmallows.  

It is only through adult leadership that boy-led thrives.  We need to know when to push independence and when to say "let me help you."  We need to be there when the new scout breaks down in tears (or worse, clams up and walks away) to steer them back on track and we need to be there when they accomplish the longest 5 mile hike they have ever done with a high-five.  The older boys are watching and they will mimic that behavior.  The younger boys will remember and in a couple of years understand what servant leadership is.

I would think that U of Scouting could handle some of this kinds of thing, but instead of 6-8 short cursory courses, have one intensive course that will cover a units' next year's major activity.  Even then, one day isn't going to be enough.

This whole discussion keeps hitting at the real chicken and the egg problem. To we practice skills to learn them, or do we learn them to practice? If we are looking for a magic ring of getting adults up to speed with scout skills there isn't any really. Amateur adults in a new troop will naturally struggle to grow and must reach out past their comfort zone for help. How they do that depends on the adults and the unit.  

My concern is that back in the day, it was expected that First Class Scouts had the knowledge, skills, and abilities in those topics and could teach those courses.  Sadly, I am seeing more and more  "one and done" Scouts.

So, I"m now thinking along the lines of having a "track" at University of Scouting for "Adventure" for both adults and scouts:  

Backpacking Gear (1.5 hours)

Backcountry Cooking (.5 hours)

Backpacking Trek Planning and Adventures (1.0)

Canoeing / Kayaking / Rafting (1.0 hour)

100 Hikes and Adventures (1.0 hour)

The last three classes would include ideas of where to go and what to do -- even having the participants make suggestions.  My goal is to give adults the basics and get them excited about doing some of these things.  Heck, I can even work in discussions of how this works in boy-led (I remember a couple of comments on the fact that I don't have a map on a trek -- just the boys) and how to work with the boys in planning the events.  Add in a resource guide -- checklists, website links to trail organizations, etc.

The best part is I can get the guys from my Troop to do the presentations -- no better way to showcase boy-led.

@@Stosh, what was the most exciting thing your troop did in their outdoor program last year?

Ours was the 25 mile bike ride to a scout camp, camping overnight and then riding 25 miles back.  No, maybe it was the day at the COPE course followed by a day rock climbing on a real rock wall.  Hang on... I forgot about the canoeing, camping on an island, canoing some more and then backpacking.  Oh, what about the campout on the beach with the bonfire.  Now, its got to be the 50 mile backpacking trek in the mountains of New Hampshire.  Or was it the sea kayaking trip?  

Some were scout's ideas, others came from the leaders.  All were chosen by the boys among options on a list developed by the PLC.  All of the logistics were arranged by adults (getting the campsites, renting the canoes and kayaks, arranging for service projects, etc.) but all of the outings were executed by the scouts.

This year, the scouts want to do whitewater rafting, sailing, horseback riding and an overnight on a boat.  I had 19 guys camping with me last weekend at a Camporee that my son thought sounded cool so he brought it to the PLC's attention and they decided to do it.  

So what I"m saying actually has worked to make our Troop's outdoor program more exciting and more boy-led.

In a boy-led program, the onus of developing adventure should always be on the boys.  

There is a difference between theory and practice.  Boys can only handle that onus if they have been trained.  They can only be trained by older scouts if the older scouts have experienced it.  If there is no experience in using your imagination to determine what is possible, you will be stuck with the same as last year.  

So my first step would be to get adults interested and to develop skills.  If an adult isn't interested and doesn't have the skills, there is no way the Troop is going canoing, kayaking, snowshoeing, backpacking, rock climbing, etc.  The adult's inability kills boy led.  

Second step is to present options and ideas of what is possible.  How many times have I heard, "wait, we can do that?"  Those ideas generate more ideas from the boys - COPE, fishing, horseback riding, sleeping on a sailboat, etc.  If you have adults start the idea process and have adults willing to put the boys ideas into motion -- then you get a strong boy-led outdoor program.

The third step is to do it.  I think it is OK if the adults take the lead in planning the first couple of outings.  Then you start to shift it to more and more boy-led until the boys plan the entire outing (as my son is going to do with next summer's week-long backpacking trip). 

If a Troop doesn't have adults that are excited about the outdoor program, the Troop won't have an exciting outdoor program.  Telling the boys they can do whatever they want to -- when the reality is that they are limited by their adults excitement and training is a lie.

And that was the point exactly.  I may have all the skills down pat, I might be able to tie the bowline one-handed with my eyes closed, I can set up any kind of tent on the market today and for the past 100 years, but do I know enough about boys and how they act and react away from home and in the woods to trust them to do and make the right decisions?  If I can't answer that question, I'm heading to the State Park and council camps instead of the back woods where there is plenty of immediate support and cell phone bars if needed.  Even if I might feel a bit comfortable with the woods doesn't mean I'm taking 20 unknowns with me that I am responsible for their safety.

@@Stosh -- I agree.  The necessary leadership for more adventurous outings includes what I'd call technical competence and adult leadership skills (what you call understanding boys).  The second part can only be learned by experience working with the boys

I started as a Boy Scout leader with not much more experience than hiking and boating (row and sail boats) around our summer home when I was a kid, a handful of camp outs as a kid (maybe three not in a back yard), two car camping trips a year as a Cub Scout leader (if it didn't get rained out) and an interest in learning more.  Heck, I thought that adventure was what Boy Scouts was about.

In the past 2 1/2 years, I've camped around 60 nights and hiked or backpacked more than 200 miles -- the vast majority being with scouts and the rest with my son.  I've learned to kayak and canoe, I've read survival guides, I've learned how to baton wood and start a fire under any conditions, I've leared how to cook gourmet meals with a dutch oven or a backpacking stove.  

Based on my interest in adventure, our Troops's outdoor program kicked it up a notch.  We are now training the next set of adult leaders in both competence and understanding boys and boy-led by having them accompanying us on car camping trips and more adventurous outings.  So I get what you are saying.

My real question is -- what can we do to help other troops kick-start their adventure program? 

He was more in favor of the nests.... which tend to look more like a a frame pup tent only out of mesh.

 

I've been looking at those Zpacks

also this one  http://www.tarptent.com/protrail.html

looks interesting to me.  Looks like maybe more of a single wall tent than a tarp wit its integral bug nest.... but I'm thinking it might be to my liking....

 

 

 

I do like the idea of the multi-purpose nature of something like that.... maybe when it's cold enough for no bugs some day....

Living in New Jersey, I'm used to bugs, but I don't use a bug net in either my tarp or hammock.  Why?  Because I"m so covered with DEET that bugs don't come near me.  If he bug spray works during the day, it will work at night.

Troop is lookng at these tents for lightweight:  http://www.tarptent.com/double-rainbow.html

For backpacking, I have this:  http://www.rei.com/product/865393/big-agnes-fly-creek-ul-2-tent

It works well for my son and me, but you really have to like the person you are with.

yep, that has been on my want to try list for a while..... ever since seeing a hennessy hammock a few years back.

I used a hammock on our 50 mile.  I have the ENO Double Nest.  It is amazingly comfortable.  I have a fly to go over it, but didn't use it the whole week because the weather was clear with minimal humidity.  I have used the fly and it works great during torrential rainstorms.

He was asking about outdoor adventure training ... for which we seem to have a delusion that some three hour gear-and-lecture plus training weekend will get an adult from 0 to 60 (60 being where some CO would trust that the trainee has something to offer his kid).

 

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Read a handbook. Practice the handbook. Take your time. 

 

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We talk boy-led, but we often ignore that boys could also lead earnest adults.

 

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I'm not delusional in that a weekend will get them fully trained... just get them interested enough to go and learn more.  As for handbooks, the BSA handbook is worthless.  The Fieldbook is a lot better, but I'm go toward specific books on topics like backpacking and survival.  I think most adults would have a hard time ego-wise learning from a 13 to 16 year old.

Regardless of what we think should be done with adult training for the boy's adventures, wouldn't it simply be dictated by the choices the boys make?  If the boys want to backpack, the adults learn about that either on-line or take classes at the local sporting goods store.  They want to bike hike, then one bones up on what that is all about.  BWCA? More training on learning how to canoe, etc.  Some of the boys might already be miles ahead of the new adult leaders and even they could be instrumental in training them on what's needed.

 

A general, generic training to cover all aspects would be useless because it would be so watered down it would be cursory at best.

 

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I'll take a single adult leader with a modicum of scoutcraft skills who understands boys,  over the hermit experienced woodsman any day.  I really find it surprising with the number of scouters who really don't understand boys very well.  Being a parent doesn't really qualify them in any way in this regard, and often times hiders it.

I agree that in-depth training is dictated by what the boys want but we all have to start somewhere.  What you call generic training, I call providing the basic building blocks.  As for understanding boys, I'm not sure that can be taught.

I have taken Powder Horn and that is close to the training you are asking about.  It is geared towards high adventure training and is very hands on for 2 3-day weekends.

 

Here is an example flyer from our council: http://www.bsacac.org/my_files/documents/110_2016_texas_powder_horn_flyer.pdf 

I hadn't hear about Powderhorn -- it sounds exactly like what I was thinking about.

What I'm saying: if anyone wants a generic program under BSA auspices, it already exists. It's called the trail to first class. Let adults walk it. Let the units they serve guide them through it. (Maybe give those JASMs some real jobs.   ) Then, let earning that rank make a scouter eligible for Star/Life/Eagle, Powderhorn, Woodbadge, or whatever.

 

Now, if you think T2FC, as delivered in a scouter's unit (maybe with a little outside help for new units) is not good enough to get adults on par with those basic outdoor skills, ask yourself one question: why are we wasting our boys' time asking them to go through it?

I think that T-1st is the basics and I learned most of that in IOLs.  My idea was something more advanced.

I'd start by getting the adults interested in the core outdoor skills.

 

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 You lost me after hello.  I was hoping that this would be something that would get the adults more motivated to go in the outdoors.

Oh well, I thought it was a good idea.  I'm now going to go order some thowing knives and tomahawks for my son and I to play with in the back yard so I can be competent to supervise the activity on the next campout.

Wow.  With all the talk in other threads about a lack of adults with experience in the outdoors, I didn't expect such negative reactions.

My understanding is that Wood Badge is more management training than outdoor adventure.

I can see this for new leaders, but Star Scouts? They should have had these topics covered already. I know T-2-1 requirements covers all of these topics, and cannot see how a one day course can expand those skills. MONTHLY CAMPING (emphasis) is the way to do it.

 

HOWEVER, if the course is designed to help the Scouts TEACH these skills at the troop level, I'm good. BUT it better be hands on.

I agree as to the linked program for scouts.  I told my son about it when I first heard of it at my IOLS training.  We were both excited.  Fast forward two and a half years -- my son is 13 and Star.  I asked him if he wanted to go and his response was "I could teach all that stuf."  He's right on that.  He also said that it should be for Second Class scouts.  I agree.

There are some things in there that aren't part of T-2-1 and I would include more of those things in the program.

My focus wasn't on the scouts but on getting adults open to more adventure so to make programs more interesting.

As Eagle94 says, the only practical way of learning outdoor skills is doing outdoor skills repeatedly on monthly camp outs. 

Shouldn't stuff like this be covered as part of a unit's monthly program in the outdoors? Building fires, foil cooking, animal awareness, Dutch oven cooking, astronomy, weather, survival, etc., are all part of our unit's annual plan. It is part of every meeting and every camp out.

Agreed, but how do we teach those skills to adults in units that don't have an effective outdoor program?

@@Hedgehog, I like your sense ... I think you may know what's coming from me next ...

 

Here's how I would run it:

 

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When will we stop trying to re-invent the wheel?

I guess my thought was to have it be something that would get the adults interested and provide a base level of competence.  I understand that you think that adults should be able to earn ranks, but that is beyond my power to make that happen.

Knowing scoutcraft skills is one thing, but knowing the development dynmics of young males is quite a bit different.  Picking up on the scoutcraft is just learning to follow directions and practice on proficiency.  Knowing these factors and applying them requires more than book learnin' and hanging around observations.  

 

Just a basic class on understanding the boy-led, patrol-method concepts would be a lot more beneficial than being able to tie a bowline one handed.

OK, that was my IOLS training which was really well done and covered all the T-1st skills -- except maybe the one handed bowline.  I'm interested in going beyond this to get adults excited about the outdoor program.

What I still stuggle with is popcorn sales.  The door to door sales part is an individual activity.   Would this scenario work:  Lets say summer camp is $200 per boy and you have 5 boys going.  Your summer camp fund need $1000 so you set a $200 sales goal.  Lets say three boys sell $200, $225 and $175 comissions, can you ask the remaining boys to write a check to the camp fund for $200 each?  Does this pass the test?

 

If so now lets say one boy sells $400 comission, you still require the $200 comission or check from the other boys and then have $200 left over, that goes into the general fund or stays for next years camp?

For an individual activity, I would have a portion (we do 15%) of the receipts (which is around 25% of the profit) go to Scout Accounts.  By my estimate 25% of the profit goes to the unit and the remaining 50% goes to National/Council.  One of the problems in the Capital Gymnastics Tax Court case was that the benefit was dollar for dollar and no money whet to the general organization.  We also have a threshold that you have to sell a certain amount ($100) before you get a percentage.  If you do that, I think (for what my opinion is worth) you can apply the amount credited to the scout (the 15% of proceeds) toward camp and charge the parents for the rest.  Here there is a private benefit that arguable is insubstantial based on the unit and chartered organization's operations.

If you do a fundraiser like a pretzel or doughtnut sale to fund a specific activity -- like a high adventure trip -- I would require everyone going on the trip to participate (e.g. everyone has to spend an hour either setting up, running the sale or cleaning up) and split it among those going on the trip.  Under this scenario, all of the profits go to the troop to offset everyone's cost of the trip (resulting in no private benefit).

... and part was what the boys could use for campout purposes only.... If the scout didn't have the funds his parents were asked to write a check or their son couldn't go. 

 

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As far as a scout is obedient, I am not blindly obedient to every rule out there when it runs counter to my running the troop right. No way am I going to enable lazy, clueless behavior and no way am I demonstrating to those who work for things that they have to spread the results of those efforts to support those who won't lift a finger or write a check. That would be a dis-service to everyone. 

Under IRS rules, the structure you had would be a private benefit because the ISA offsets personal expenses of the scout that otherwise would be paid by the parent.  The question then becomes whether the benefit is "iinsubstantial"  I can' give an opinion on that because I don't have enough facts about your troop.  Look at my prior posts to see my thoughts on what my troop is doing and why I think that is not substantial.

The obedience issue is related to federal laws... not just some random rule.  I"m not saying what you are doing will cause your charted organization to lose its tax exempt status.  What I"m saying is that you need to make that determination based on the facts and the law... not what you think the right answer should be.  Unfortunately, the tax laws don't always come up with what is the right answer -- but that doesn't mean we can ignore them.

Well,  that's the first time I've heard your claim to real expertise regarding taxes.   

 

I respect that,  but I don't respect the pieties you've handed out,  implying that those using Scout Accounts were being dishonest.  That line is like the Scouter who dons the mantle of the Uniform Police to badger other people over trivial issues.

 

The tax angle isn't trivial,  but it can be overdone as well. 

 

Personally,  Scout Account serve my unit's interests in a variety of ways.  They make it possible for low income families to participate in Scouting without leaning on the family budget.  They induce boys and families to support the unit and the council by selling popcorn.  They teach thrift by allowing boys to purchase their own Scouting adventures through their work.  Many boys learn self confidence in dealing with people through sales efforts.

 

In short,  selling popcorn and Scout Accounts are a useful part of the Scout program,  in my opinion. I'm not going to give all that up based on exaggerated worries that have never actually resulted in IRS audits of Scout units over Scout accounts.

 

So I find your warnings worth listening to,  and I've read the comments on Scout account published by BSA.  The bottom line for me is that there are good reasons for doing what we do,  and little reason to forego those benefits. 

Seattle:

I apologize if I came across as saying you were dishonest.  I don't know you and can't make that judgment.  I was reacting to what I sensed was an "I'll ignore the law if I don't agree with it" attitude.  I realize that you were ignoring my advice which you didn't think had much weight coming from an anonomous Hedgehog on the internet.  That's understandable.

My point is that we have to be aware that these rules are out there and can affect our chartered organizations.  If you read my posts, I'm not saying that Scout Accounts can NEVER be used.  What I"m saying is that if any funds are set aside for a particular scout, then you have a private benefit.  If there is a private benefit you then need to detrmine whether it is "substantial."  I indicated that I concluded that our unit's use of Scout Accounts did not result in a substantial private benefit based solely on a comparision of the amounts raised for National / Council and the unit to the amounts raised for an individual scout and a larger comparison of those amounts to the overall budget of our chartered organization.  I also mentioned that some benefit could be considered the cost of fundraising.

I would also add to the analysis the role that earning money to pay your own way plays in Scouting.  My son fulfilled one of the T-1st requirements through selling popcorn and applying what he earned to summer camp.  I also would consider that the funds are being spent in a way that is within the goals of scouting (i.e. helping scouts go on outdoor trips).

Ultimately, we are not so far off in our views -- I just want people to understand that there are better and worse ways of doing Scout Accounts.  If people don't want any hassle, then don't do it.  If you are going to do it, here are some of my suggestions:

1.  All funds are in kept the unit's name.

2.  Funds can only be transferred between units within the same chartered organization

3.  Only a portion of the proceeds should be set aside for the scout engaging in the fundraising activity if the fundraisesr is for general purposes.  The rest should go to the unit (or if it is popcorn, a portion also goes to national/council)

4.  If the fundraiser is for a specific trip (Philmont) have the activity be something that everyone can (and is encouraged if not required to participate) in and apply the proceeds equally to reduce everone's cost.

5.  If a scout's family is financially challenged, it is ok to provide them with additional assistance

6.  Scout Accounts can't be used to for personal purchases such as backpacks or hiking boots or ever given to scouts when they leave.

7.  Scout Accounts can be used to fund Eagle projects

8.  Incentives are permissible as a cost of sales -- be them at the National, Council or unit level.  

Those suggestions should get the unit close to the Scout Accounts being "insubstantial" but it really depends on a lot of other factors.  Our unit has around $1,500 in Scout Accounts and around $8,000 in other funds.  There might be a different result in terms of substanitality if the amounts were switched.

In a lot of recent threads, folks have been bemoaning the lack of outdoor skills in adults. To me the answer it to develop a training program for adults and scouts - run the right way.

My inspiration is here: http://training.ppbsa.org/woodsman/WOODSMAN'S%20THONG%20Flyer%202015.pdf

I think that is a great program, but it seems more like classroom learning in an outdoor setting. My sense would be to do a 3 hour gear and food lecture a couple of weeks before the weekend. Allow the adults and scouts time to get gear. Then take a three day backpacking trek. There is no better teacher than doing it.

Ho would you run such a training? What skills would you teach? Do you think folks would attend? If we came up with a syllabus, would you offer to lead it for your council?

Check out Bear Paw Wilderness Designs.  I have one of the flat silnylon tarps with "wings" that act as doors - http://bearpawwd.com/tarps/flat_tarps.php

I've been thinking of getting a Bug Bivy - http://bearpawwd.com/net_tents/bug_bivy.php

There are a lot of other tarp like tents that can hold a net insert.

Also check out Hexamid from ZPacks - http://www.zpacks.com/shelters.shtml and Tarptent - http://www.tarptent.com/index.html

While I agree with the usefulness of cast iron. (I type this while sitting in my room with 20+ CI skillets and griddles hanging on my wall). I encourage the boys to learn to use multiple types of cookwear. Cast iron has its place, but one won't venture more than a couple of miles from their car or portage much with them. With a variety of skills using a variety of cookwear, the boys can choose the appropriate cookwear and other tools for the trip. Choose tools for the adventure, dont let the tools limit ones choice for adventure.

That is what I keep telling my wife when I buy more gear... you need the appropriate gear for the adventure.   

The other thing about CI is the near endless entertainment value.....

There seems to be no end to the wives tales and various ideas about the rules and proper methods for CI use and cleaning.

And that scene in Harry Potter with Dobby and the cast iron skillet.

When I mention that, it takes a minute for the boys to remember.

Now I'm hungry thinking about what we cooked in cast iron this weekend:  Eggs and Canadian bacon, italian sausages with sauteed onions,  Italian style short-ribs (in a Dutch Oven), apple pie (DO) and French Toast (Cast Iron Skillet) with sausages.

Just from my experience ...

• There is a vast difference between a march in bear country and some paper-pushing homework assignment. Think about it this way: your sons friends friends have been denied the opportunity to practice outdoor learning and leadership, so they haven't been in a position of "overwhelming tasks" where they needed to trust someone else with details. They are denied the opportunity to practice servant leadership, so they become good managers ... maybe too good.
• The goofball doesn't go away when the girls are there around the clock. Just trust me on this.
• "Popular" young women also join venturing (I've fielded several on the homecoming court). Sometimes, they just a place where they can be goofballs without trying to impress anyone. I suspect the same would apply to middle-school women if we gave them a chance.
• As for toughness, how many young female settlers walked from one side of this country to the other? Don't doubt their ability, just regret their lack of training and conditioning.

Make the girls' dads an offer. Pick a nice 15-miler for starters. See what comes of it.

Enjoy your journey to the "dark side" we have cookies.

I agree on the difference in youth leadership styles.  Planning is lacking in boys, but I've seen them perform under pressure and demonstrate the skills they've learned.   I'll have to trust you on the rest of it.  

I told the boys that if they planned it, I'm make the call.  They are thinking AT from Delaware Water Gap to Backpacker's site / Sunfish Pond -- about 5 miles in and can reverse and take a different trail out.

From working with coed scouts here in the UK I can see there is an element of truth to what you say but it doesn't tell the whole story. Yes girls are more likely to get it right first time. However when things go wrong my experience is that is when the boys are that much better.

 

Its funny, but when the girls put on the uniform it's like the boys don't see them as girls any more, they are just another scout. Yes there's the occasional bit of flirting and very occasionally "boy meets girl" but nothing to really write home about.

 I like your take on the differences in how boys and girl's leadership develops.  

My son sees the girls he is friends as just another friend -- they all share some common interests and then there is the catagory of what he calls "girl things" -- like hair, make-up, etc.

This, I'm thinking for many (myself included), is maybe the biggest issue that nobody wants to wrap their heads around or want to mention.....or wants to deal with.

Actually, that isn't a concern I would have.  I suspect that there are better opportunities for that sort of stuff than out in the wilderness with a light sleeping adult in a hammock.  Plus, my experience is that everyone is so exhausted on outings that sleeping is a higher priority than anything else -- most of our guys are asleep by 10:00 on campouts and shortly after 9:00 on backpacking treks.

As for the public displays of affection, I've seen the razzing the older boys give each other on that so I think that would also be a non-issue.

Q:  How many adults does is requried to take a group of scouts on an overnight trip?

A:  Two.  One to advise the boys and one to keep the other adults out of the way.

Maybe there needs to be a training program for them that's fun that they can do alongside their sons. 

When I took my IOLS training, the Council where I took it advertised this:  http://www.nnjbsa.org/document/woodsmans-thong-training-by-patriots-path/115623

I think that is along the lines of what you had in mind.

My then 11 year old son was very excited at taking the class in two years.  My now 13 year old son and I talked about it at the end of the summer and his response (after camping 55 nights, backpacking close to 100 miles and hiking another 100) was, "I could teach that class... I've done all of that.  It should be something kids do after First Class, not after Star."  I've often thought that a version of the program would be good for our council to adopt -- even better if older scouts can teach the adults.  

I have a similar goal when I do my introduction to backpacking class for Webelos and new Scouts (and their parents). 

So here is my $.02.  Up until around 7th grade, boys want nothing to do with girls.  My 13 year old son and his best friend now have two girls they hang out with (the ones who complain that the Girl Scouts don't do anything fun).  On the way home from our 50 mile backpacking trek, the boys were texting the girls debating whether the girls could have made the trip.  Although I have to agree with the boys (we all struggled at times on the trek and the girls have never been backpacking before), the talk soon turned to doing a backpacking trip with the four of them (and one of the girls dads).  When you add those girls interest to the adult leaders in the Troop who have daughters, I do see an opportunity for starting a venture crew (although it may meet with some resistance for shifting my attention and the adventure component away from the troop).

I suspect those are the type of girls that would join Boy Scouts -- not the popular ones but the ones that like the outdoors.  However, I would keep Boy Scouts just boys.  Our troop is over 50 boys and thriving.  I love the fact that the boys can be boys.  Girls bring a different dynamic.  Our group of goofballs can be themselves without worrying about what girls think or do.  

From watching my son work with girls on homework assignments, they are more organized and detail oriented and, as a result, they take over the leadership of the project.  The boys response is, "if they want to, I'll let them ... it is easier."  I don't think that changes until around 10th or 11th grade.  I think the presence of girls would reduce the opportunities for boys to find their ability to lead. I loved this past weekend seeing the SPL truly lead without me saying a word, seeing the PLs taking charge and seeing my son lead as an APL.  

 

My concern is that you guys know less about paying taxes than you think you do,  and loudly proclaim your self righteous ignorance.

 

After 22 years of practicing as a tax litigation attorney, I've learned never to think I know everything. 

Wow. It's 6:00 am and 39 degrees outside. I'm snug inside my down sleeping bag in a tent. 19 Boys in tents around me all sleeping soundly after a spending yesterday at a Camporee they decided they wanted to go to - seriously, who wouldn't want to this tomahawks? There are four other ASMs with me. We had a blast hanging out in the campsite while the patrols did their thing and then having short ribs and polenta for dinner with apple pie for dessert. At our meeting next week the SPL starts the meeting with calling up the boys who went and asking what the best part of the trip was.

More later ... I've got to go make coffee.

The error in the thinking is that the expansion of members means the expansion of the program.

As a lawyer, I've found I"ve been more successful in "marketing" my practice by focusing on what I do best, rather than trying to do anything for anyone.

It is better for Scouting have fewer members if it is focused on building character throught the outdoors than having more members by trying to expand the program into STEM.  I'm all for science and math, especially with a son who is interested in engineering.  But this summer he will go to a two week long robotics camp at the local college and spend another two weeks learning computer programing.  He goes to scout to spend a week in the outdoors.

I recognize that Scouting in the U.S. has always had a vocational aspect to it, but to be honest, that isn't the draw for kids -- it is the adventure with their buddies.

Teflon for camping is a health hazard and should be avoided. Camping stoves tend to produce hot spots that push Teflon above the danger point. Though you can now get high-temp nonstick pans from some places, they tend to be expensive.

I tossed three Teflon griddles that were chipping and flaking after my first campout with the troop.  Gave the boys a choice of replacing them with the same or getting cast iron griddles.  They went cast iron and never went back.  We still have the Teflon frying pans which they only use for eggs and bacon and don't get too hot.  I'm still lobbying to replace them with cast iron.

Nobody speaking here:

I have a camp-box specifically for family camping trips!

Technically, my wife's uncle built it, so he's the nobody.

Open mouth, insert foot.

Hedgehog I looked up those pots you suggested and they have some low ratings........do they hold up well to the abuse

We have something that looks very much like the first set I linked to.  They are beat up but still work for boiling water and we have no problem throwing them over a grate over a fire.  The others are what I"m looking at to get to replace the Adult Patrol's gear.  I haven't tested them but will probably get them at REI since you can return it within a year for any reason at all.