Hedgehog

There are plenty of risks and adventures out there within G2SS.  Canoeing on a river, sea kayaking, whitewater rafting, rock climbing on a real rock cliff all have controlled risks -- but for an 11 year old it is the adventure of a lifetime.  How about a backpacking trek on a path called "The Devil's Pass"or the rim of the Pennsylvania Grand Canyon?  Bouldering at Hawk Mountain Sanctuary or at Sunfish Pond on the AT? Our District camporee next weekend has Tomahawk and Knife throwing.  How about taking a swim in a pond or river you encounter while hiking (in accordance with Safe Swim guidelines)?  I like the idea of taking kids and dropping them off only with a day pack and map and compass (and an adult in the back who only intervenes in cases of safety) and having them find their way to a rendezvous point for dinner.  

Heck, letting the recently crossed over scouts just whittle a stick or light a fire is an adventure for them!  Lighting match-light charcoal (G2SS says no liquid fuels used by scouts) can even be an exciting learning experience for kids.  Better yet, have them use tongs to take embers out of a fire to use on a Dutch Oven.  One of my favorite things is when the scouts borrow my bushcraft knife to baton wood.  Dangerous? -- not if you teach them how to do it correctly.

My wife gets worried when my son goes ahead to explore on hikes or takes a walk by himself when we are camping.  I tell her that he will be fine... or he will just learn a tough lesson.  But then again, I was raised being able to wander around the woods in the Poconos by myself for hours at a time when I was his age.

So my next question would be: Do I impress my personal preference for camping on the boys? Is there a place for both kinds of camping in a program? Because if I had my way, we'd backpack from the start.

I think that a program should have a variety of adventures for the boys.  We camp at BSA camps, national parks and state parks but we include an activity.  We've done day hikes, orienteering, kayaking, rock clmbing, COPE, bicycling and other activities.  The boys have mentioned doing sailing (both using Sunfish sail boats and going out overnight in a larger boat), horseback riding, whitewater rafting and fishing this year.  We also do a float trip -- the past two years we've done canoeing on the Delaware.  We're looking into caneoing on a large lake and camping on an island.  We do two to three backpacking trips a year ranging from 15 milers (with a shorter option for new scouts) to 50 milers.  Next weekend we are doing a District camporee and in the past we've done the West Point camporee.  The boys like the variety of experiences.  Over the past two years we've expanded the program based on a simple question -- what do you guys want to do?

That being said, we encourage the scouts to get gear that can be used for backpacking and use that for the "plop" camping.  Some guys use duffle bags for the first couple of campout and that is fine.  I've prepared a lightweight backpacking gear guide along with a sample gear list that I've used with our troop that I would be glad to share.  Typically, we tell new scouts to the following items in this order:

1.  A lightweight sleeping bag

2.  A sleeping pad

3.  A headlamp

4.  A water bottle (or use a Gatorade bottle)

5.  Plate / Bowl and Fork/Spoon/Spork

6.  Non-cotton clothing and socks

7.  Lightweight backpack

We normally don't have to tell them to get a knife, but encourage them to get a locking single blade knife if they only have a multi-tool / Swiss Army knife.

For "plot" camping our patrol gear consists of:

1.  Patrol Box - a plastic box containing cast iron griddle, wash basins, large and small pots, teflon frying pan, collander, utentsils and supplies.  I'd be glad to send you a list of what is in the boxes (we have a checklist that is used after each campout when the boxes are returned).

2.  Coleman two burner propane stove with carry case

3.  Coleman Northstar Propane Lantern

4.  Lodge Dutch Oven (with lid lifter and oven mits)

5.  Pop-up trash can

6.  Folding Table (for when there isn't a picnic table for cooking)

7.  First Aid Kit

8.  5 Gallon Water Cooler

9.  Plastic box for food

10.  Cooler for food

As a Troop, we also have Kelty tents that the boys can borrow and an "Ax Yard in a Box" that contains various axes, hatchets and saws.  Several of the scoutmasters have folding campfire grills that we allow the patrols to borrow if they want to cook directly over the fire (my favorite is Italian Sausages or the one time the adult patrol had strip steaks).  The Troop and the adults also have cast iron frying pans (the boys are now hooked on hot dogs cooked in the cast iron frying pan).

For backpacking, the Troop's gear consists of some old backpacks that the boys can borrow, the tents the boys can borrow (we are hoping to be able to get several lightweight tents specifically for backpacking reducing the tent weight from 8 pounds to around 2.5 pounds) and water filters.  For backpacking, each scout is responsible for their own cooking.  Some of them buddy up, most just cook for themselves.  Enough adults and scouts have backpacking stoves, so we share with the scouts that don't.

I have also discovered that they ask a ton of "can we do this", "Is it time for" type questions. The older boys are having a tough time when my answer is "I have no idea you make a decision" the younger ones are all over it though. I am also finding myself giving a lot more direction than I want when it comes to activities and how the meetings should be running.

My favorite line to use for the younger scouts is "Obviously, you have mistaken me for someone who is in charge.  I"m not."  That usually prompts a question of who is in charge (assuming another adult).  I turn it around and ask them, "who do you think is in charge?"  It usually takes two guesses to come to the SPL / PL.  For the older scouts, it is a simple statement, "I"m not in charge, you are."  As for the "can we do this?" question, my response is "if it is legal and not against the guide to safe scouting, the answer is you can do anything you decide to."

I spent ~15 hours in the course during summer camp picking up a ton of knowledge that was in addition to my Red Cross First Aid that I do every year. 

Probably would have been a better use of your time to take riflery -- that way you can shoot them and put them out of their misery because nothing we learned in WFA will help anyway.

It would be interesting to know how many of the instructors of WFA had had to actually deal with an actual case of what they are teaching about or whether or not they are just reading out of some book.

Both people who taught my WFA class were EMTs. Wildnerness First Resonders and EMT training instructors.

I was one of those who insisted for the usual fare (including amassing a couple grand over a couple of years for an HA), this is a non-issue. But let's suppose you want to go forward with making the treasurer's life a little easier and phase out ISA's.

 

It's simple. Johny's $1000 for Philmont stays allocated to that purpose. He can also add to that from his electronic device consulting service (the modern lawn-mowing equivalent) to pay his fees. Jimmy's $50 debt for camp overages will either be payed by him (from his online game-FAQ writing business) or out of the troop's operating budget. He defaults, you all owe. 'Nuff said.

 

Treasure then says, "No more splitting fundraisers into ISA's."

 

Done.

That makes the most sense.  The answer is one of balancing prior commitments (you get what you raise) and compliance with your reading of the BSA/IRS guidelines.

However, there is a lot of grey area in the BSA/ IRS guidance (and I wrote that before rereading the Bryant on Scouting article "But it’s not that simple. And the explanation won’t be as black and white as you’d like. That’s because the IRS rules governing things like individual Scout accounts have a lot of gray areas.")  I've read the IRS guidance that  is out there and it is less than clear what "substantial" private benefit means.  It is clear that running a fundraiser for a soccer club and having all the net proceeds pay for the individual players expenses is a substantial private benefit.  Beyond that, it is a judgment call.

What if a scout gets of the gross proceeds of the popcorn they sell?  A portion goes to National/Council (36%), a portion to the Troop (18%) and a portion goes to the Scout's ISA (15%) to offset costs realted to Scouting.  Is that "substantial" especially in light of the other activities of the chartered organization (of which all of the funds are used for example, church purposes) and the de-minimis level of popcorn sales (e.g. say $10,000 of which the CO/Troop gets $3.400 and puts $1,500 into the ISAs)?  BSA says 30% has been found to be substantial but this is 20% (15%/70%).  If you look at the $1,500 as part of the CO's fund raising (let's say $1,000 a week for 52 weeks for a church), the percentage is 2.8% which BSA says 2% has been held to be insubstantial.  

The IRS guidance in response to a Cub Scout Pack's ruling request was "Earmarked accounts may not be compatible with continued tax exemption. Such a decision cannot be made without considering all of the facts and circumstances. "  Talk about being equivoqual.

The safest route is not to use ISAs.   If you do use them, don't credit the scout the full amount of the net receipts of their sales.  If you are doing a fundraiser for High Adventure (which would entail more than the typical amounts done for popcorn sales), have all the scouts who are going participate.  Then the funds received offset the cost of the trip in total rather than being applied to any specific scout.  

Ultimately, the answer is my favorite lawyer answer... "it depends."

@@Eagle94-A1, I agree - the IOLS and T-1st and First Aid MB could teach skills better and teach them in a wilderness concept.  My son wants to take a First Aid class from the local fire department because as he puts it, "I learned the stuff for the Merit Badge, but I'm not sure I'd remember it or be able to do it in an emergency."  Even if the First Aid Merit Badge was sufficient, adults are not required to have it.

I also agree on the Epi-Pens and have been taught how to assist in administering them.  My thought is that trained leaders should be able to carry Epi-Pens and administer in case of an emergency to any person in their group.  You never know if Johnny will have an alergic reaction the first time he is stung by a bee.

@@Stosh, I agree that many of the skills are taught in T-1st.  But how many adult leaders master those skills in the 1 hour IOLS powerpoint presentation?  

Without doing a side by side comparison, I think that knowing when (if you are unable to see signs of capilation) and how to realign a broken bone was one thing that was different.  Also, as I mentioned above, my WFA class focused on assessment and diagnosis.  That means you can tell the difference between a sprain and a break.  That means you know what to look for when examining the injured person and what questions to ask.

I also agree that CPR is most likely useless unless you can get an AED machine.  But heck if I'm at a scout camp having a heart attack and there is an AED machine 10 minutes away, I"m not going to complain if a WFA trained leader performs CPR while they run to get the machine or that the WFA trained leader knows how to use the machine.

As for being held to a higher standard of care, that is true but you can only be liable for things you do (not for omissions) and only liable if you do something that is incorrect based on your training (i.e. cut open a snake bite and suck out the venom) or do something that is outside the scope of your training (cut open a scout's arm to try and reset a bone).

I also agree that the current training is too expensive and should last for more than 2 years.  I had to take it so that our Troop can undertake backcountry adventures based on our Council's requirements to obtain a tour permit.  If I'm correct, First Aid certification is recommended for all trips; we have to certifiy that we have a first aid kit and emergency roadside kit for all trips; hazardous weather certification is required for all trips; and WFA is required for backcountry (i.e. backpacking) trips.  I also wanted to take it because I really didn't feel that I was proficient enough at First Aid to be responsible for the boys in my troop's safety.

@@Stosh, I think you would agree that there needs to be some First Aid training for adult leaders beyond the IOLS Powerpoint presentation (which some council's don't even require IOLS).  Absent any dictate from council or national, what would you reccomend the rule should be?

But it's pointlessly burdensome for a lot of troops.  The list of training required for a SM or AS is already too long.

From my perspective, the first aid training given to SMs and ASMs as part of IOLS is insufficient in case of a real emergency.  Initially, it starts with the premise you know what the injury is, assumes that a full fledged first aid kit is available and ends with the premise that help is on the way -- all covered in about an hour on powerpoint slides.  I'd have to check, but I'm not sure they even taught how to take a pulse or to count respirations per minute.

WFA teaches assessment and diagnosis.  A scout doubles over while backpacking -- what do you do to find out what the problem is?  My WFA training had us run through 12 different scenarios where we didn't know what the problem was, requiring us to diagnose and treat the injured person.  WFA teaches how to improvise on bandages, splints, stretchers, etc.  It also requires CPR certification -- which is not a requirement for T-1st.  It also taught how to use an Epi-Pen.  

I hope the $150 I spent on WFA training and the $100 I spent on building a backpacking medical kit which includes SAM splints, Quickclot, an Ice Pack, Iodine and everything else is a complete waste of money.  That just means that I will have made it 7 years in scouting without someone getting seriously injured.  

I agree that currently the cost is a significant problem.  We're working with our local fire department to do the training, so hopefully that will bring the costs down.

As for the difference between basic first aid and WFA, you just have to read the Scout Handbook or the First Aid Merit Badge booklet.  

Under basic first aid, for serious injurie the idea is to stabilize and call 911.  The typical rule is don't move the injured person unless there is a secondary danger (i.e. fire).  For broken bones, the rule is don't touch unless it has broken the skin and then only treat the bleeding.

WFA assumes help is not available for several hours if not longer.  Chances are that you won't be able to call 91 and  the nearest road is at least 3 miles away (and it might be a remote dirt fire road).  You may have to evacuate the person.  You may have to align a broken bone to restore circulation.  You may have to splint a broken bone or finger.  You may have to deal with serious bleeding, which if you can't get it to stop results in one les backpacker returning home alive.

To make WFA requried for all outings is absurd.  To make it required for backcountry trips makes sense.

All patrol based communication is handled by the boys without copying the adults.  Each patrol runs an activity for the Troop part of our meeting every four weeks.

Information about weekly Troop meetings and PLC meetings is sent out by the SPL to scouts with a copy to adults.

Information regarding the outdoor program is announced by the SPL at the weekly meetings (all outings are announced three weeks in advance).  One of the ASMs  sends out a detailed e-mail regarding the outings to the scouts with a copy to the adults.  For the boys, this serves as a backup for what is discussed at the meeting.  For the parents, this keeps them appraised of what is going on.  

Unfortunately, most parents are the keepers of their kids schedules -- especially for the kids that aren't in high school.  The last three years has been a transition for my now 8th grade son.  The number of reminders from mom and dad has decreased exponentially and he pretty much keeps track of his school and scout commitments.  Copying the parents on the e-mails allows them to provide the level of supervision appropriate for their children.  The 11 year old crossover is different than the 14 year old patrol leader.  

The e-mails also give the parents a level of confidence in the program.  Parents worry (especially the parents of the new Scouts) but they seem to worry less when they see what is going on and that the adult leaders are organized and communicating.  The transition to boy-led is more difficult for them than the boys.

Heck, I even use the e-mails to coach the parents -- "All scouts should pack their own gear because each scout is responsible for themselves.  A good idea is to develop a checklist to use to pack.  After each outing, scouts can adjust the checklist based on what they needed but didn't have or what they had but didn't need."

As I'm writing this, I realize that the e-mails are really for the parents -- the boys would operate fine with just the announcements at the meetings. 

Not sure if it is a national requirement or not, but having one WFA trained adult is required for all backcountry outing in our Council.  I can't imagine any parent letting their child go on a backcountry adventure without having someone appropriately trained and I can't imaging being responsible for the safety of a group of boys without having that training.

We have at least 4 adults in our Troop that have WFA training -- typicaly two of them go on every outing - backcountry or not.

I'm up for recertifcation in 2016 and I suspect that my son will also get certified... well because someone need to take care of me if something happens.

Part of the issue is not understanding boy lead. Especially parents.

 

But the biggest challenge is CS leaders. You spend  X number of years as a CS leader being trained to run meetings, trips, etc, Then become a BS leader and have to sit on your hands and let them do it.  Very hard to transition.

 

Or as Master Yoda would say, "you must unlearn what you have learned."

There are a couple of ways to help with the transition:

• Emphasize boy-led when Webelos and parents visit
• Have the parents interact with the boy leaders (they are the best evidence that the program works)
• Get the new parents to trust the Adult Boy Scout leaders
• Have an ASM "chat" with the parents who come to meetings about the advantages of boy-led and how things work
• Talk to the parents about how the kids taking responsibility for themselves in scouts mirror how they have to take responsibility for themselves in school
• Tell the parents how great their kid did on the last campout
• Have the new leaders get trained
• Have current leaders demonstrate what boy-led means in front of parents ("have Bobby ask his PL what he need to do for advancement")
• Don't be afraid to "correct" adults not acting in boy-led ("Johnny can do that")
• Have the Scouts take pride in becoming independent
• Require adults to camp separately from the boys
• Run the adult patrol like a scout patrol -- it keeps the adults busy and busy adults can't interfere
• Make campouts an opportunity for the adults to enjoy each other's company -- all of our adult leaders have become friends and we would probably go camping together even without the boys. 

Also not just Stosh, anyone else too.... the std BSA one, or something a little better?

My son and I have two different options for cooking / eating while backpacking (although on weekend trips we take both):

The first is the JetBoil, Freezer Bag Cooking  (with homemade cozys) or Freezed Dried Meals, two sporks and two mugs.  Boil water, fill bags, wait 10 minutes and eat.  Can also use the stove and mugs for coffee (Starbucks via packs or the Korean Maxim Mocha Gold which already has cream and sugar), cups of soup, tea.  Nothing but water goes in the JetBoil -- keeps it cleaner.

The second is a Snow Peak stove, Snow Peak Titanium 1400 Pot, two black plastic bottoms from black takout bowls and two sporks.  This is used for one pot meals (alll ingredients stored in a freezer bag), Kraft Macaroni and Cheese (with powdered milk) and for faux baking (it fits three of the silicon Silly Feet cupcake holders).  The take out containers work great for holding the food and avoid any spilling when trying to serve and eat on uneven boulders or tree stumps.

The other piece of cooking gear we bring is a One Egg Wonder which is a lightweight small teflon frying pan that costs around $6.  Best investment ever - every breakfast is either bacon and sausage with eggs or pancakes.

Yes, the tablecloth and napkins were both made of real cloth and the silverware had full handles on them.

Stosh -- If you are ever in Central NJ / Southeast PA, you have an open invitation for dinner from me -- be it on the trail, in base camp or at my house.  If it's at my house, I'll even supply the napkins and silverware.  But be warned -- I may hit you up for your DO cheesecake recepie.

However, my idea of backpack cooking is more in line with survival cooking and cooking for calories for the trail.  It is not designed as a fine-dining outdoor experience.  There is nothing tasty about reconstituted freeze-dried anything.  

I guess we will have to disagee on that one.  If I can eat fine-dining style for the same weight as your survival food, I'll take fine dining.  

Most of the foods I listed (the exception being the freeze dried turkey) can be bought in the grocery store and dehydrated at home.  You can find polenta, mashed potatoes and couscous where you just add water and let it sit.  Tuna and chicken come in lightweight foil packs.  Gravy, pesto and other sauces come in small trail ready bags.  I won't mention the individually wrapped biscotti and honey buns I bring to eat with my coffee.

A lot of the freeze-dried stuff actually tastes pretty good.  The veggies like peas, corn and bean are indistinguishable from fresh (or maybe I was just really hungry).  The entrees that I've had are pretty good but I've head that the breakfasts are less than appetizing.  They even have desserts like cheesecake and creme brulee.

If I'm going to be doing 8 to 12 miles with 2,000+ feet of assents in a day (typical for backpacking in the Northeast on the AT and most other trails), I really want something good to look forward to for dinner - especially when you are burning around 4,000 calories.

In my opinion dutchcovens are easy. Plus they pack terribly. Far too often DO cooking is perceived as the pinnacle, when in reality not using a DO is more of a challenge and often more appropriate (like when not plop camping). To really think outside the box, backpack 5 miles in without a cooler or dutch oven and still cook great meals. DO cooking is great for base camp, but when on patrol one can still eat very well.

I agree.... to an extent.  There are a lot of Dutch Oven recipies that are easy (and delicious).  It gets a little more challenging when you try to do thing like braising meats before cooking or making apple pies or cakes using trivets.  To get really challenging, try baking bread in a Dutch Oven.  

Ultimately, the Dutch Oven is just a tool which has its usefullness judged based on the quality of the food you cook.

I disagree that backpacking would be the future non-scout camping.  I suspect that car camping with the wife and then kids may be more frequent -- at least until your son gets to Boy Scouts.  

Ultimately, most backpacking cooking these days is boiling water and putting it in a bag.  Whether that be a commercial freeze dried meal or homemade freezer bag cooking (see trailcooking.com for details).  My son and I have developed some good receipies that we cook while backpacking.  We do homemade (powdered) eggs and (precooked) sausage tortillas, (precooked) bacon and (powdered) egg croissants, pancakes, tuna fish wraps, PB&J wraps, (powdered) pesto chicken (from foil wrap) with couscous, (dehydrated) sloppy joes with Kraft Maccaroni and Cheese, (dehydrated) beef stew with polenta and my new favorite - Thanksgiving Dinner on the trail (freeze-dried turkey, gravy, stuffing, potatoes and a little bit of cranberry sauce).  We also have made blueberry muffins and chocolate cupcakes using the trail baking method (www.trailcooking.com/fauxbaker/).  However, it is really good just to dump some water in a bag and eat at the end of a long day on the trai (and more lightweight nad takes up less space).  

I think the cooking merit badge got it right -- home cooking is different than outdoor cooking which is different that cooking on a hike or trek.

We're using the Cooking Merit Badge and the Adult Patrol to kick things up a notch.  At the cooking merit badge, I challenge the boys to be creative in their cooking.  We have 4 groups of two boys working together to each make a full dinner and we invite the parents to join us at the end of the day.  Some of the things they have cooked have been:

• Baby back ribs (in a DO) with cornbread (also in a DO), applesauce (made from fresh apples) and coleslaw followed by blueberry peach cobbler.
• Beef stew (DO) , buttered noodles, green beans followed by a two layer chocolate cake (DO)
• Beef ribs in tomato Sauce (DO), polenta, green beans followed by brownies (DO)
• Lasagne followed an apple pie (DO)
• Chicken caccaitori, fettuccine followed by cheese cake (DO)

The adult patrols cook something different on each campout and because the SPL and ASPL eat with us, the boys know what we have to eat.  My favorite so far was the strip steaks grilled over an open flame with sauteed onions (also cooked over an open flame in a cast iron frying pan), baked potatoes, green beans and warm bread (all cooked or warmed in foil).  I'm thinking of doing a turkey, mashed potatoes and stuffing or grilled venison with blueberry sauce on the next campout. 

I do, however, believe that the shade of grey is directly related to the understanding, attitudes and agendas of the adults, not the boys.  I think in this day and age, adults find it more and more difficult to actually trust and even believe the boys can be taught to run their own scouting program.

Grey?  That quote is pure gold!

That really is the irony of it.  To have a strong boy-led program depends on the adults.  We have to train ouselves not to do what comes naturally (i.e. lead, organize, get things done) but to step out of the way to let the boys be in charge.

Pass off the training of the adults to a capable ASM.

That would be me, the likeable ASM that continually explains "how we do things."  Have chair and coffee cup, will travel.  

@@Hedgehog it looks like you have a really good handle on the process and seem to be moving heavily in the right direction.  My comments are not meant as any judgement on the program you are running, but as an opportunity for you to maybe see the next step in the progress for your program.

@@Stosh I agree wiith all of your edits.  That is the ultimate goal.

In a way, your edits demonstrate what I'm talking (and I think what you acknowledge in your later post) that going to boy-led is a process.  A troop isn't either boy-led or not boy-led, but rather boy-led is a continuum.  To begin on the continuum, start with changing the things that are easy (no resistance from boys and adults) and the things that are important.  Assess how things are going and then change a couple of other things.  Repeat.  Along the way, if you explain the importance of boy led to the boys -- you will start to have them changing things on their own.

In theory, you should be able to go into the next scout meeting, announce that the troop is now boy-led, open up your camp chair, sit down, put in ear-plugs (to deaden the sounds of chaos) and drink coffee.  So what if they fail, that is the point, right?

@@Eagle94-A1, you are correct that it is a balance.  It is the adult leadership that enables a troop to be boy-led.  Start with a core group of the CC, SM and ASM who buy into boy-led.  Their goal should be to provide as many opportunities for the boys to make decisions as possible and to prevent other adults from interfering.

I'm going to use our Troop's outdoor program as the example.  Let's start with planning.  Adult tells SPL that the PLC needs to come up with the outings for the year.  At the PLC meeting, the boys brainstorm and then decide on a list.  In our troop, the adults then go make the reservations, draft the permission slips and send out the e-mail to the Troop for each trip (paperwork is for adults).  The boys announce the trip at the meetings, hand out and collect the permission slips and checks.  One of the scouts volunteers to be the grubmaster (satisifying T-1st cooking requirements) and another to be the quartermaster (satisfying Camping merit badge planning requirment) for their patrol.  We have "handouts" for the grubmaster and the quartermaster explaining what they need to do to prepare for the campout.  One of the ASM's reviews the Grubmaster's menu and the Quartermaster's gear list.  On the day of the campout, the quartermaster is responsible for packing all of the patrol's gear (signed out from the Troop QM).  On the campouts, the adults camp 200 feet away from the scouts and each patrol sets up away from the other patrols.  Each patrol, including the adult patrol, has its own gear so there is no need to share any gear.  The SM / ASMs meet with the SPL, PLs and APLs upon arrival and each morning for 5 minutes to do a "briefing" - allowing the adult and boy leaders to be on the same page.  For the activities, the SPL and PLs run the show.

Now, this has evolved from the past where the adults would plan the cooking and pack the vehicles, where the adults would be telling the boys when to start cooking and yelling about cleaning up, where the adults would be telling the boys when to get up, when to get ready to leave, where to go when hiking, etc.  Can we become more boy-led on outing?  Yep.  The troop QM can work with the quartermasters who volunteer for each patrol.  We could have the PLs or APLs work with the grubmasters on the menu.  We could have the SPL run the morning briefings rather than the SM.  In time...

My point is that you can come up with a list of what needs to get done on outings and write down who is doing it.  As time progresses, start turning things over to the boys.  Once you turn it over to the boys, they tend to keep doing it year after year because they have seen the leaders before them do it.  

That is the practical part.  The other part is cultural.  You have to get buy in from the key adult leaders and they in turn become advocates for boy-led.  They explain it to the boys. They explain it to new scouts. They explain it to parents.  They explain it to new adult leaders.  They explain it again to parents.  They tell the boys that they are doing a good job of it.  You get the picture.  Every parent that comes on a campout with us gets my "coffee cup leadership" lecture and my "how amazing it is to see the boys lead" talk.  Every boy leader gets used to my response when they ask if they can do something, "if it isn't illegal or against the Guide to Safe Scouting, you can do it -- you are in charge."  The boy leaders get used to me coming to them with problems and asking them to solve them ("new scout just arrived this morning on campout -- he needs a tent buddy but we have an uneven number...").  The leaders get used to me asking them questions ("how should we handle this?" "what do you want to do after lunch?").  The new scouts at camp get used to my response when they ask me questions ("it says Boy Scouts of America on my uniform, I'm not a boy... try asking one of the boys" or "obviously you've mistaken me for someone in charge, I'm not in charge, the boys are.").

Finally, it helps to have several adults pushing boy-led.  We all revert back to the "it is easier if I do it" mentality sometimes and it helps to have another leader to remind us, "let the boys figure it out, that's their job."  We all see boy-led differently and we try to get our involvment to be the lowest common denominator (i.e. if any of the leaders think the boys should handle something, they get to handle it).

Good luck.

Just threw mine in my pack for the weekend campout -- that's after using it for 5 nights on our Troops 50 miler.  I love it -- except for CBS (cold butt syndrom) which causes me to have to put a pad in the hammock which causes me to wake up in the middle of the night to adjust the pad.  I probably need to get a down underquilt.

To answer the questions:

1) Yes.  Enjoyed it.  See above for complaints.  I love not having to sleep around rocks and there are always trees in the Northeast.  The hammock and fly almost equal the weight of my two man backpacking tent -- But they take up a lot less space. 

2) Eagle's Nest - Double Wide.  I don't think there is a difference between single and double.  Have a rain fly but nothing else (if the bugs don't bite during the day, they won't bite at night).

3) Preference depends on the trip and the season and the trip.  There is something about being snuggled in a tent in 30 degree weather.

I would like to thank a number of forumers who have guided me over the year.

 

Dessertrat,  Eamon, twocubs, Eagle99,  Fish,   Oldgreyeagle. goldwinger,

 

 

Lets just say that with their advice,  the inner city poor troop went from 6 members to over 50.    Moving from adult led/run to boy led and run.  I am proud of what that group of 6 have accomplished.   

 

Thank you.

 

 

Sadly I have seen a significant shift in all scouting forums that I don't care for and simply will not stand for without speaking out.    I see scouting moving from it's middle class base to the rich suburbs.    Requirement short cutting,  eagle chasing parents,  High dollar trips and Family adventure being the norm.  

 

Lost is the boy sized adventures,  the days exploring the creek or hanging with buds......My patrols are truly a band of brothers.  It makes me smile every outing to watch them in action.  I like to think that Dan Beard and Baden Powell are looking down on our program and smiling.

 

I wish you the best  

 

Basement

I applaud what you are doing and what you have done with your scouts and am sorry to see anyone leave this forum.  The more variety of opinions the better the discussion.

However, I feel your reference to "rich suburbs" is a barb directed at least in part at me based on your post here: http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/27653-getting-inexperienced-leaders-up-to-speed-faster/?p=425272If I offended you, that wasn't my intent.  Rather, I intended to provide more information to counter your assumptions and barbed comments about the quaility of my Troop's program and scouts.  I thought my posts were done in a very scoutlike way and the worst that I said was that you jumped to conclusions based on extremely limited information.  

In your parting shot, you again lump all "rich" suburban troops together as being failed models of scouting.  Like all sterotypes there may be some truth, but it fails to be accurate when applied across the board.  My troop is boy-led.  We don't short-cut requirements but make sure that scouts know the skills by learning, doing and teaching.  Parents don't drive Eagle, the scouts do.  We tell parents that it has to be the boy's decision.  Family camping?  Most of our scouts don't want their parents to come and we require new scouts to tent separately from their sons (200 feet) when they do come.

Also, we aren't a high cost / high adventure Troop.  Our typical outing costs $25 -- $10 for a campsite and $15 for food and supplies.  I took a week off from work this summer to spend 6 days backpacking 50 miles in New Hampshire with a band of boys -- the cost of the trip was $30 per boy ($25 for gas and $5 to cover the cost of maps - we only charged for gas because the trip was 300 miles each way).  Each boy provided their own food.  Our typical backpacking trip is free with each boy providing their own food.  We do day hikes and shakedown hikes at local parks for a cost of nothing.  Yes, some of our trips are more expensive -- maybe an additional $15 for kayaking, $25 for two-day canoe rental or $15 to do a COPE course.  

I realize that what works for my Troop may not work for Troops that are from lower socioeconomic and/or urban areas.  Nonetheless, I believe that all boys need scouting -- but not for the same reason.  A kid from a broken home, a kid who would rather play video games, a kid who's parents don't undertand him, a kid who's family struggles to make ends meet, a kid who's dad passed away, a kid who gets lost in the shuffle because he is one of six kids, a kid with learning disabilities... the list goes on.  

I wish you and your scouts the best of luck.

Thx bro

 

Under his skin I got.

 

 

Funny stuff hog boy..

 

 

I think your very confused as to what scouting is and why we are here.

 

Hint it isn't about that expensive pile of gear you are selling to cub scout parents.

I'm not confused.  A scout (and leader) is trustworthy.  That means you can be trusted not to make quick decisions based on incomplete information and to treat people in accordance with the scout law.  A scout (and leader) is helpful.  That means you build people up rather than tear them down.  A scout (and leader) is friendly, that means you assume someone is your friend and working toward the same goals unless you have clear proof otherwise.  A scout (and leader) is kind.  That means we don't insult people or bait them.

The problem with scouting and with many on this forum is that they think their way is the only way.  Anyone who has studied leadership knows that the best leadership is tailored to the situation on the ground.  I tend to follow Richard Covey's advice in 7 Habits of Effective People -- seek first to understand then to be understood.  You are neither seeking to understand how our unit operates nor seeking to be understood with what I can only assume is your enlightened approach to scouting.  I suspect our goals are the same and we are using the same methods (boy-led, adult interaction, active outdoor program) but you are trying to make an argument on perceived differences.  So let me explain our approach and you call tell me where it can be improved.  Now that I have explained what our troop does in my prior post, I'd also be glad to hear any suggestions of what our troop can do to be more boy-led and what your troop does to be more boy-led.  I'm here to learn different approaches and to apply them to make our program better.

As for gear, I don't subscribe to the "naked and alone" theory of backpacking.  Having the proper gear directly inpacts the safety, health and comfort of scouts.  You can't go backpaking with a duffle bag (or as I saw once a suitcase).  You need a sleeping bag and a sleeping pad and some sort of shelter.  Knowing what food to pack also helps as you need to eat when backpacking and need to eat the right stuff (proper amount of calories, balance of carbs and proteins).  If you attended my presentation you would also understand about the clothing you need and don't need -- no cotton shirts, socks, underwear, jeans or anything.  Ever have a scout wear cotton underwear on a backpacking trip and get diaper rash?  To the chagrin of all the moms, I tell the scouts they need two pairs of underwear for a three day trip -- the ones they are wearing and one extra.  The right hiking boots / shoes and socks prevents blisters - it isn't about the brand or type but more the fit.  The right supplies in a first aid kit are essential.  The boys need to know the 10 essentials for a hike.  The boys also need to know how to pack lightweight -- their enjoyment of the trek is inversely proportional to the weight of their pack.

Having the right gear means a scout is comfortable in the outdoors and more willing to engage in outdoor activities and be more independent when engaging in those activiteis.  I subscribe to the theory that scouting is a game which teaches independence, leadership and character played in the outdoors and run by boys under the supervision of adults.  Simply put, the right gear means the boys have fun when they go on outings which means they go on more outings and play more in the outdoors.  There is some motto like that... be prepared.

Additionally, you are again assuming the "expensive" part.  The first section of my lecture is about being thrifty.  The most expensive gear is the gear you don't use or have to replace because it wasn't a good purchase in the beginning.  Our troop has backpacks and tents the boys can use.  They just need to purchase a sleeping bag and sleeping pad.  Before each lecture, I search a variety of websites to see what is the least expensive lightweight bag available and price out the Thermarest Z fold or roll up sleeping pads (the least expensive and one of the lightest).  If the boys want (and the parents can afford) to get a pack, I give them several recommendations of packs that will grow with the boys.  The same for tents - sometimes a cheap tent won't work.  I keep up on new and old gear and prices and can recommend tents in a variety of price ranges and weights (Kelty Salida is the best balance of price and weight).  I explain about REI's return policy and their garage sales, I explain about the 20% off coupons you can get at REI, Campmor and Backcountry Edge, I explain about the end of season sales in December and January where you get steep discounts on last years models.  I tell the scouts how to use the bottom of a plastic take-out container for a plate and to use plastic utensils.  I explain how to eat "real food" on backpacking trips if you want to avoid the more expensive freeze dried foods.  I explain how to use Ziplock bags and garbage bags instead of expensive "dry bags" for clothes and food and for pack covers.  I explain the characteristics of a good knife (don't need a multi-tool on the trail) and one of those characteristics is that it doesn't have to be expensive.  I'm working with our scouts to have them donate gear they have outgrown to the troop so younger scouts don't have to shell out as much money.

Boy led is ded or dead as it were.

 

Hedge,  lots of me and I's in your posts.   who plans the trips, buys the gear.

 

 

So why are you doing the teaching about backpacking and gear?   Why isn't your SPL or more importantly your youth QM doing it?    

BW:

My posts in this thread have been about getting adults involved.  The presentation is to Webelos and their parents (who likely will be paying for the gear and accompanying their sons when the go shopping - especially since we are talking 5th graders) and new scouts.  My point is that it gets them interested and excited - you would be surprised how many parents end up getting the gear to come backpacking with the Troop.  It also gives the parents a sense that the adults know what we are doing and a sense of trust that they aren't sending their son into the wilderness with a bumbling idiot.  Some troops go to an REI or EMS to have an expert discuss gear -- it just happens that I'm an expert.  I see no problem with bringing in a guest speaker even to a patrol or troop meeting (the best is when the boys brought in a yoga instructor for their fitness theme).

And, for the record, I have several of the scouts do the presentation with me -- it is like a big show and tell.  When I do a Backpacking merit badge class, the boys are the ones that take the lead in discussing and teaching.  Our boys also do themes on winter camping, survival, etc. as part of our regular program.  

As for how boy-led our Troop is: the boys decide on the activities, the boys decide where we go, the adults make the reservations,  the adults prepare permission slips and collect payment, the adults make sure we have enough drivers.  Each patrol packs their patrol and personal gear (adult patrol packs their own).  When we arrive, the boys take the lead.  The adults camp away from the boys.  Each morning on an outing there is a quick meeting of the boy leaders and the adults where the plan for the day is discussed and any decisions are make by the boys.  The boys then implement their plan.  

When we do backcountry trips, the boys come up with the plan of where we start, how far we go, where we camp, etc.  When we are on the trip, they are the ones with the map and in the lead...  I bring up the rear.

As for the backpacking tents, the boys have been complaining about the Troop tents for years due to the weight of the tents and the fact that they leak.  Replacing them with new lightweight tents was the boy's idea.  Any other toop gear purchases are based on the quartermaster's recommendation.

Be careful not to make the logical fallacy of a hasty generalization.  Just because i do a gear presentation (which other troops have had me do as they prepare for Philimont) for Webelos and new Scouts, doesn't mean that our troop is adult led.

Does this parent question every ball or strike at their kid's game?

 

Do they review and question every grade they get in school and set up meeting with the teacher?

 

Do they go to every employer and ask whey their kid didn't get the job?

 

I think @@Stosh has the right approach. Have the meeting. Make it short. Have the scout there. Direct the questions through the scout and let *him* answer his mom's questions. If he doesn't know then help the scout explain.

 

Mom needs to be respectful of the SM's time. 45 scouts x 1 hour meetings is a full time job if everyone wanted one. There are limits to the one hour a week we can give to volunteering.

Do parents sign their kids up for baseball camp, take them to the batting cages, go out and run with them to get them in shape?  Do parents go out an buy sleeping bags, tents and hiking boots for their kids?  

Do parents look at their kids homework to make sure it looks right?  Do parents see their kids grades and ask their child about them?

Do parents look over cover letters and resumes and make suggestions?  Do parents tell their children to forward a resume to one of their friends who may know someone?

I wonder if the different responses in this thread reflect which of us are parents and which of us have kids well beyond scout age?

I've talked to a lot of parents about the advancement process.  It is confusing.  Also, it is sometimes difficult for a new scout to do what they need to do.  I suspect that everyone here has a different sign off process.  Heck, I"m not sure what our troop's sign off process is -- I think any scout that is First Class can sign off but we encourage boys to have the Troop guide that is in their patrol sign off and if they aren't around have the PL or APL sign off.  That covers everything except for Scout Spirt, SM conference and BOR.  There also are a lot of questions about merit badges.  The process is different for summer camp, Troop run merit badges, outside merit badge classes (some groups in our area run great full day classes for a single merit badge) and merit badges where the person works with a counselor.  

The bottom line is that parents want to understand the process so that they can "mentor" "coach" "encourage" or "parent" their kids.  The jump from adult led Cub Scouts to boy led Boy Scouts is not a cliff, but an incline.  You take the transition one step at a time.  I have no problem with a parent reminding their son  to bring their book to the meeting so something can be signed off or reminding them to e-mail Mr. Hedgehog and ask if they can come over to finish up the cooking merit badge.  Even with my own son (8th grade and Star), I still mention to him things he needs to follow-up on ("hey, make sure you come up with a route for the 50 mile bike ride and let's see if we can get in a couple of warm up rides before we do that"; "hey, I forwarded the e-mail with the District Camporee information -- take a look at it and see if that is something you guys might want to do"; "hey, you should finish up the work on Sustainability and Citizenship before school starts"; "hey, don't forget to take out the trash, feed the dog, practice your trombone, make your bed, clean up the piles of gear in the basement, brush your teeth, wash behind your ears...").  We are parents... that is what we do.

But here is the silver lining.  I think that all parents WANT their kids to learn independence and responsibility.  Every parent I've talked to understands that scouting teaches responsibility -- first for themselves and then for others.  They understand that scouting provides a safe place for their children to falter and fail.  I've seen the looks in the eyes of moms when their 6th grade sons are responsible for cooking for their patrol and the release of tension when I joke "we've never had any scout die of starvation on a campout" and then explain "the older boys are great at helping out and showing them how to do things."  I've seen the looks in moms eyes when they turn their 12 year old sons over to me for a 6 day 50 mile backpacking trek and how it changes when I give the kid a high five and ask "you ready to do this?"  I've seen the look of moms when they pick up their son's after the first campout and nervously ask "how did it go" and how that look changes when their son breaks out into the biggest grin and says "it was awesome!"  I've seen the nervous smiles of moms when they arrive at summer camp and joke with me "it would be really bad if I ran over to my son and hugged and kissed him during the flag ceremony, wouldn't it?

Our children are precious to us.  They are our life's work.  The only question the parents need answered is "can we trust you to do right by my child?"  It may take a smile and a joke, it may take an hour.