Hedgehog

We tried a New Scout Patrol last year.  The plan was to isolate the crossovers until the end of the year so as not to disrupt the existing patrols.  After two weeks, the NSP Guides talked to the SPL and ASPL and they came to the adults requesting that we abandon the project and just integrate them to the regular patrols.  We did.

I think that it makes no sense to have a NSP camp on its own.  We have more than 10 new boys joining each year and I can't see how you can have the group of them go camping without the adults interfering.  Heck, it is hard enough to keep any adults that cross over out of the way of the boys.  

In reading your post about the last campout, there seems to be a lot of adult expectations of what is the right way to do things.  Adult expectations are the downfall of boy led.

We never required our guys to do duty rosters.  Over the last couple of campouts, when we did start, stop & continue, the boys felt that not everyone was helping out equally.  The adults asked, "how did you divide up the jobs that needed to be done?"  The response from the PLs was "we just found whoever was standing around and asked them to help."  We then asked "Any ideas for a better way?"  The response was to use duty rosters like the were required to do at summer camp.  So we now have duty rosters, not as an adult imposed requirement, but as something the boys have developed.

On the last campout, there was some issues about the menu.  A couple of guys were tired of the same old thing (especially since the adult patrol eats very well).  A couple of guys didn't like what their grubmasters had planned to cook.  A couple of the dishes didn't come out really well.  My question was "how do you solve that problem?"  The answer was that the PLs and APLs (or the patrols as a whole) need to work together with the grubmaster to decide on the menu and that the rest of the patrol needs to help out more in the cooking.

Part of the transition to being more boy-led is letting the boys know they are in charge.  Ask them how they can solve their own problems.  They often have better solutions than the adults.  Isn't that what real leadership is?  Working with a group to solve problems.   Ask your boys what they think the answer is and then respond with four words, "OK, then do it."

this reminds me of the hack of using an empty milk jug (or similar thing) with a small flashlight inside

I like the idea of using Chapstick, a Q-Tip and a cut open aluminum can.  Not good for a patrol to cook by, but fun for the guys to make.

One can read all they want on the marketing of the refill adapters and the refillable bottles, but the only literature that counts is the federal law that says all propane canisters of any size must be refilled, by weight (if under #200 tank) by a trained and certified technician in order for it to be transported anywhere.  So, technically, yes you can refill the tank, you just can't transport it anywhere per federal law.

Stosh - 

I wasn't thinking of refilling them myself - I tend to be quite attached to my body parts.  The tanks I linked to seem to be able to be refilled whereever you refill your 20# tanks but I may need to get an adaptor for them to use in refilling the tanks.

@@Hedgehog we replaced ours with something more heavy duty. Saved us from buying globes all the time.

 

Is that the Northstar lantern?  It looks like the one I linked to in my original post.

I've got nothing but the duel fuel items. 

 

That's where I was leaning due to lack of tanks and batteries to throw away.  My concern was that the boys would need supervision to fill and light them and that would require them to come over to the adult campsite to ask one of us to go over to their campsite to supervise.

We only use lanterns on one campout a year, klondike. On most campouts, about the time it gets dark the scouts are in bed or at a campfire so the patrols never need them. The adults use one for playing farkle, but headlights work well.

 

Part of the reason we got away from them is they are fragile. The led ones sound nice, but at this point I don't want more gear in the trailer so I will quietly forget your good idea.

We tend to arrive at a lot of our campsites in the dark and to do a lot of cooking and clean-up in the dark (we camp year-round).  We haven't had any broken glass, but we go through a lot of mantles.

Our troop gradually changed away from using lanterns when we went to a back packing troop. 

Our outdoor program is varied -- backpacking, canoeing, base camping (or stop and plop camping if you'd like).  What we bring depends on what we are doing.  When we do backcountry trips, the boys cook individually or in groups of two -- so everybody brings their own stove and own light.  For base camping, we do patrol style cooking and bring patrol boxes (large plastic totes), dutch ovens, Coleman two-burner stoves and lanterns.

I'll have to try a couple of the LED lanterns we have to see if they would be sufficient.  I don't think we can do without for cooking, eating and clean-up -- it's hard enough for the boys in daylight!

I also found this which solves the refilling problem (and would help with the propane for cooking): http://www.propane-refill.com/products/refillable-propane-cylinders

It is time to replace some of the lanterns our Toop uses and we were debating several options:

OPTION 1 - Coleman Propane Lanterns

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Northstar®-PerfectFlow-Instastart-Propane/dp/B00HUG7OZQ

OPTION 2 - Coleman Battery Operated Lanterns

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Twin-High-Performance-Lantern/dp/B001O3F5Y8

OPTION 3 - Coleman Duel Fuel Lanterns

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Premium-FuelTM-Lantern-Carry/dp/B017VL1VIU

The problem with the regular propane lanterns is that we end up with 6 propane cylinders that we throw out after each campout between the lanterns and the cooking stoves.  The problem with the battery operated lanterns is that they take 8 D batteries for 10 hours on high -- so that is 24 D batteries in the landfill for each campout.  Also,, they are around 70% of the brightness of the propane and other latnerns.  The problem with the duel fuel lanterns is that the boys can't light them under G2SS without adult supervision and liquid fuels are banned at some campsites.

It isn't practical for us to carry 20 gallon propane tanks on campouts -- we don't have a trailer and don't have enough room in cars for the extra gear.  I saw these 4.5 gallon tanks which might work for cooking and the lanterns, but they are a little pricey: 

http://www.lowes.com/pd_313493-743-281149_1z0wejl__?productId=3089591&pl=1

Maybe in the long run, the price is worth it in the long run due to the savings over the smaller tanks and the impact on the environment.  The other thought was to refill the smaller tanks.  Does anyone know if you can still do that?  I saw some adapters claiming you can do that on Amazon, but was a little concerned.

Thoughts?  What do you use?

 Is that how he takes care of his boys?

 

So Stosh, would you sign off on the POR requirement for a Patrol Leader who did not camp once with their patrol over the course of a year?  Would you consider a scout to be "active" if the attended four meetings a year and didn't camp out?

 

IMHO, this is all misplaced.  You avoid "parlor scouts" by doing interesting things, promoting friendships between scouts and having scouting be the place they want to be.   Solving "parlor scouts" with extra requirements is misplaced.  "Parlor scouts" is not something to solve.  Troop program is something to solve.

 

So what percentage of your scouts in 10th, 11th and 12 grade go on outings on a regular basis?

I also tried contacting our DE about finding a troop but honestly I did that before and it seems she doesn't know what boy led means either.

If you are anywhere near New Jersey, you are welcome to join our Troop.  Only requirements are that you like spending time in the outdoors and you bring your own chair and coffee cup -- so you can sit down and drink coffee while the boys lead.

I always found these discussions reflecting misplaced frustration.  Putting up extra road blocks is the wrong mind set.  BSA has expectations.  Every ... EVERY ... rank has them.  Whether through defining number of activities .. or number of camp outs .. or cooking meals ... or holding positions of responsibility.  

 

My question is not about misplaced frustration, but it really comes down to what is an "active" scout and how you judge whether someone performs their POR.  Can a scout that hasn't camped in two years be considered "active" in the Troop?  Can an SPL or PL who doesn't lead in the outdoors be considered having fulfilled their POR? 

By deciding on a criteria ahead of time, it makes it clear what the expectation is.  I think that is better than having ascoutmaster not sign off on advancement after the fact.  i view having a set number of outings to be a "safe harbor" -- if they don't reach that you consider the facts and circumstances (much like MattR's acts of god).

The idea of putting in expectations is to change the Troop's culture because it seems that from 10th to 12th grade, our scouts become "parlor scouts.  That is changing slowly because the boys now decide on the outings (and are going to take a greater role in planning them) but I think there needs to be some stated expectation.

For rank advancement purposes, do you require scouts to go on a specified number of outings to be considered "active"?

If you do, what is the requirement?

I was thinking that attending one in three outings should be the minimum for being active.  For the SPL/ASPL and the PL/APL maybe there should be a higher threshold such as attending half of regular outings (we have 9 to 10 regular weekend outings, a week long summer camp and a week long adventure).  

This would be a going forward change being announced before elections for the next school year.

Thoughts?

I agree that it is a long and hard road to get to a strong boy-led troop.  Our troop when I joined was boy led... well it was sort of boy led for the weekly meetings.  The outdoor program wasn't.  Being the new ASM on the block didn't keep me from objecting when the Troop committee planned the first couple of months of the outdoor program.  The next week, the new SM (who just took over), pulled me aside and said he agreed with me.  Since then, we've worked together to push the troop to being strongly boy-led.

The PLC now decides on the outings.  The adults used pack the gear in their cars.  First the scouts did it under the leadership of the SPL and now it is being done by patrol under the leadership of the PL and PQM.  I would do research regarding places to go and thing to do as part of the outdoor program (e.g. finding out where we could go whitewater rafting, finding trails where we could go backpacking) -- the boys are now starting to do that.  The adults handled the cooking for the Troop on the campouts.  We now do patrol based coooking with me advising the scouts who are doing the cooking via e-mail.  The advising role is going to be moved to the more senior scouts.  On outings, the adults told the scouts what to do.  Now, we camp 300 feet away and the boys are in charge.  At the last Court of Honor, the SM had the SPL run the program... not the adults.  

At our weekly meetings, the boys have always run things.  We break out into patrols and each patrol runs the troop portion of the meeting.  It is controlled chaos with the adults standing on the side of the room watching.  We don't do merit badges at meetings.  The boys teach the skills they want to using activities they come up with.

The key is the commitment to boy-led.  Those in charge need to be committed and those the adult leaders and the parents of the kids that join the troop need to be sold on it.  If you sell it to the adult leaders and the parents, they boys are easy.  The one thing we hear about the boys who join our troop is how much they like the fact that the meeting they attended was boy led.

It is a journey of taking many small steps forward.

@@Hedgehog, I would have never guessed.

 

So, how do you work with a boy on this one?

Obviously you know the boundaries! Plus, you clearly have boys who are going to try every outing imaginable. (Not to mention boys from other troops whose SM sent them your way.) How to convert every action into bling is the last thing on their mind (thank goodness)!

 

Furthermore, the only reason I bother with the GTA is to send adults on their merry way. I don't expect boys to wade through it or blogs. Etc .... The reqs, the pamphlet, and his counselor should be all he needs for any determination.

 

So, knowing there's guys like me who want the process to minimize pencil whipping and maximize reflection, what do you do? What might you do differently after hearing us blather on?

The boys learn about camping by doing it.  Its up to the older guys to teach the younger guys what they need to know - whether that be at our weekly meetings or on campouts.

If a boy doesn't have 15 nights, I won't work with them on the MB.  They just don't have the experience to make any discussions meaningful to them.  At 15 nights, most of them have done summer camp at least twice (only one counting) and five other campouts.  The boys have enough opportunities beause we do an outing every month of the year.  They need to provide a list and I check it against Troopmaster which tracks nights camped.

The other "doing" requirements (hiking 1,000 feet, backpacking, biking, canoeing, etc. and the conservation project) is easy in that our outdoor program incorporates those elements.  The other requirement is to help a patrol go on a campout - they get this by serving as their patrol's quartermaster for a campout.

When it comes time for the scout to complete the "learning" portion, I've either done it in an hour long one-on-one conversation (following or a four hour merit badge session (just did one with six scouts).  It isn't me teaching, it is them talking. They discuss what needs to be discussed, demonstrate what needs to be demonstrated (the merit badge session had a race to see who could put up their tent up the fastest) and write what needs to be written.

So, if the boys arrive on site Friday AM and build an Adirondack, and sleep in it for the reminder of the weekend, they've racked up 2 camping nights? What if they add a fourth wall and door the second night? Does only the first one count?

The just get one night, because the second night they slept in a shelter that was already built.

Interesting that Adirondacks don't count for Camping Merit Badge but do count for National Outdoor Award and Order of the Arrow eligibility because there is no "under the stars or in the outdoors requirements."  

In my case, I'm the MB counselor.  I actually did all the research on what counts so that I'd know what to accept and what I can't accept.  

 I have always given 2 days and nights for additional weeks at summer camp, as long as the scout is active regularly.  

Please note that I only credit scouts who are regularly active, which will include other camping, hikes, and consistent attendance in meetings and service and so on.  Like any of these things, it is really subjective. 

In almost forty years as SM I probably have one or two boys who needed that decision about summer camps.  And they were very active but had issues within their families that made things much harder for them most weekends.  Again, I made that decision in fairness, not in favoritism.  But, because I made it in a couple of special situations, it was extended to all; again a matter of fairness from my perspective. 

So, let us make up ridiculous possible scenarios so we can ridicule situations with which you have issue and have no real understanding.  In the two instances I noted, only one even needed the unusual credit.  And one never made it past Star anyway.  The other is now involved as a parent and an outstanding example of what most of us would like an Eagle to be.  I should note that the other troop leaders and parents are always consulted in these rare challenges.

 

To me, it is far better to work with a scout with unusual familial problems than to simply write them off because it is easier or not within the limits of our static judgemental parameters.  And, that is really part of what is wrong in society today.  There is nothing wrong with flexibility, as long as it is not the rule, rather than a rare exception.  

 

How does always giving 2 days credit for a subsequent long term camping experience become classified as a rare exception?  

You acknowledge that you changing the merit badge requirement in that you don't argue that your interpretation is correct... only that you think it is fair.

The GTA is unequivocal - "No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to, or subtract from, advancement requirements." You are subtracting from the requirement "One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement." and replacing it with "two days of a second long term camping experience will count if you are active and I think if would be fair to bend the rule for you."

To me, it is far better to work with a scout with unusual familial problems than to simply write them off because it is easier or not within the limits of our static judgemental parameters.  And, that is really part of what is wrong in society today.  There is nothing wrong with flexibility, as long as it is not the rule, rather than a rare exception.  

Working with a scout is finding a way to get the 25 nights.  Have to work weekends (at age 11-13?), let's schedule a 4 day trip in the summer or on a school break or on a long weekend? Maybe the boy can come just on a Friday night to camp with the troop.  Teach them how to solve their problems, don't just break the rules because you think they deserve the merit badge.

So Krampus, have you always done absolutely everything absolutely by the book? Yes? No?

 

As a matter of fact, you yourself advocated for flexibility on 5 October this year in regard to 'special needs' boys.

 

"Posted 05 October 2015 - 10:36 AM

@Exibar, Section 10.2.0.0 (Advancement Flexibility Allowed) in the GTA spells it out. Just like everything we do in Scouting we should have the boy strive to reach beyond his grasp. Our unit usually meets with the parents to determine how we are going to proceed for each rank. We set goals and boundaries, identify how we will evaluate the scout and move forward. We remain flexible."

 

Do you only apply this flexibility to the scouts whom in your judgement you feel like you need to apply it? Or to none of them?

Reach out to the folks at council.  Find the general number off the internet site and call it.  They will help you.

Council has the official records and they should be able to give you a printout of what they have.  You should be able to use that print out to get any missing patches.

The portion of the blue cards you get after completing the merit badges are not collected and don't need to be reviewed.  The print out from council is all the proof you need.

We have a scout who doesn't like the outdoors and his mom worries about him getting dirty.  He also has allergies.  I guess we could make an exception for him.  IT would only be fair.  Maybe he could set up a tent in his basement and sleep there.  It says "under the sky" or "in a tent you have pitched" -- so if he pitches the tent inside that works.  I guess it needs to be a campout, so one of his scout buddies can stay with him.  If we give him credit, we would have to give his buddy credit.  But what about the other guys?  That wouldn't be fair to them.  We could allow everyone to set up tents in our CO's multipurpose room.  The grubmaster can fulfill his T-1st cooking requirements by ordering pizza and picking up donuts in the morning.  We could even get one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Indoor-Campfire-Artificial-Flame-Halloween/dp/B00166RUVO 

In order to get the RAGBRAI bike ride completed in a week, at least one of the days is always +100 miles.  Not bad for thousands of people to get in each year, some of which are grade school aged.  If planned accordingly, Cycling MB could be done in less than a week.

Yeah, but if doing the 25 milers on two consecutive days is any indication, I'd be sore for four weeks if I did RAGBRAI.

Going with Backpacking.  Troop started of with 20 scouts trying for the badge, with only two left at the end.  (The tallest and shortest scout) Yes, you can do it at Philmont, but not all scouts will get to attend.

That is about the attrition rate that I had when I offered the Cycling MB to my troop.  I think I had 25 attend the maintenance workshop and 2 ride the 50 mile ride.

Remember, there is no time limit.  I've got a lot of open MB's for backpacking.  Most have done the book requirements.   I've got 7 guys that have a 30 mile trip done.  A bunch that have a couple of 15 mile trips done.  I've got one that's completed it and that most likely is because he is my son and we did our own three day backpacking trip last year (one of the best adventures we've had!).

That being said, my son still needs the 50 mile bike ride to finish cycling.  Considering I'm probably going to be asked to do it with him, I've not objected when he has put it off to the spring.

Please note that I only credit scouts who are regularly active, which will include other camping, hikes, and consistent attendance in meetings and service and so on.  Like any of these things, it is really subjective. 

That really doesn't matter if they are active.  One long-term camp can only be counted for the 25 nights for the Camping Merit Badge.  If they participate in long-term camping it counts the first time.  If they participate in long-term camping a second time -- whether it be summer camp, Philmont, a 50 miler or a 5 night canoeing trip IT DOES NOT COUNT.  There is no discretion.  It is not subjective.

A scout is obedient.  A good scout leader is obedient.  What you are doing is not leadership, but setting a bad example by ignoring rules you don't like for scouts that you do like.

Further, 25 NIGHTS SHOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT TO OBTAIN.  Since my son joined the troop, we've had 52 nights of camping in less than three years!  Of those 23 are long-term and 29 are one or two night trips.  So by the middle of 8th grade, a scout could easily get the 25 nights for camping (6 summer camp and 19 on other trips) with missing five trips (i.e. 10 nights camping).  My son had his 25 nights a little over two years from joining (plus 2 nights cabin camping and an additional 6 nights at summer camp that didn't count.

If your boys have to go to summer camp to get nights, what are they doing the other 11 months of the year?  

More here: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/

This source says that the other long term trips don't count at all. Taken to extreme, scouts could be motivated to just go home mid-week and gnome back the next day ... Thus getting at least 5 nights out of each summer camp!

@@skeptic's approach could allow a boy to get six nights out of the first summer camp and the remaining 14 out of the next seven.

 

I doubt that any counselor has crossed paths with such extreme cases.

Qwazse is correct.  You can count one full week at summer camp.  Full weeks or partial weeks in subsequent years do not count AT ALL.  I suspect the intent is to expose scouts to a number of different experiences.  Weekend camping is different than summer camp.  Also, this permits for a number of camping experiences -- rather than 3 summer camps and one weekend campout a scout is required to do one summer camp and seven weekend camping trips.  The first words of the requirement are "show experience in camping..." and I agree that the more trips a scout goes on the more experience they get.

I had actually looked at this a couple of weeks back because I was counting nights for scouts who are working on the camping merit badge with me.  I knew that summer camp only counted once and I knew that rustic cabin camping (i.e. sleeping a cabin with no plumbing and only a pot belly stove when it is 15  degrees outside) didn't count.  

However, I was surprised to find that BSA interprets the long-term rule to include treks like a 50 miler or Philmont or another week long adventure where you camp in tents.  A scout who camped out five nights (four in trail shelters and one in a tent) while we were doing our 50 miler could not have those nights count at all because he had already counted his nights at summer camp.  A good chance to teach a scout that even rules you disagree with should be followed.  The GOOD NEWS is that any nights camping count toward the Outdoor Achievement Award for Camping.   So I was able to tell this scout that when he fulfiled the 20 nights for the Camping MB he will be at 37 nights (two more summer camps and a 5 day trek) -- enough for the award and only needing 13 more nights to get the Gold device.

I'd vote for Backpacking.  It requires three trips of 3 days and 15 miles and one trip of 5 days and 30 miles.  That is a total of 14 days backpacking, 10 days camping and 90 miles.  It requires a strong outdoor program that has those trips or a motivated scout who finds other opportunities to backpack with family and friends.  We've adjusted our outdoor program from having 2 day backpacking trips to having 3 day backpacking trips and we've added a summer 5 day trip.

My vote for second hardest would be a tie between hiking and cycling.  Hiking requires five 10 mile hikes and a 20 mile hike (in one day).  For cycling, it is two 10 mile rides, two 1 mile rides, two 25 mile rides and one 50 mile ride.  Having done the 25 mile bike rides with our troop (a group biked to and from a campout), I'm not looking forward to accompanying a bunch of the scouts as they attempt the 50 miler.

I'd vote for Backpacking.  It requires three trips of 3 days and 15 miles and one trip of 5 days and 30 miles.  That is a total of 14 days backpacking, 10 days camping and 90 miles.  It requires a strong outdoor program that has those trips or a motivated scout who finds other opportunities to backpack with family and friends.  We've adjusted our outdoor program from having 2 day backpacking trips to having 3 day backpacking trips and we've added a summer 5 day trip.

My vote for second hardest would be a tie between hiking and cycling.  Hiking requires five 10 mile hikes and a 20 mile hike (in one day).  For cycling, it is two 10 mile rides, two 1 mile rides, two 25 mile rides and one 50 mile ride.  Having done the 25 mile bike rides with our troop (a group biked to and from a campout), I'm not looking forward to accompanying a bunch of the scouts as they attempt the 50 miler.

Being an adult leader is a thankless job... until someone says thank-you.  

I've saved a couple of thank-you notes from scouts and a bunch of e-mails from parents.  

Last weekend I saw the current Cubmaster from the pack and he said, "I hear the Troop's outdoor program is kicking butt."  

Occasionally, I must be doing something right.

CalicoPenn:

I like the ideas. 

To start, we should be emphazising that Units needs to take some responsibility for training up their own leaders - other than "time", is there any reason why an overnight camp-out just for current, new and prospective Troop leaders can't be done where everyone gets familiar with the equipment, and learns from the experienced leaders the skills that the Scouts will need to know?  Any reason why two or three Troops couldn't get together and do this on their own?  I believe we need to start by ending the insistence that this is the job of the District or Council to do.

I have been doing "on the job" training with new leaders -- especially in the area of cooking (I'm about to turn the Adult patrol cooking over to them... I've set a pretty high standard so I have great expectations).  We get good adult leader turnout for our more adventurous trips and, like the boys, the best way of learning is doing.  Heck, I had never canoed on a river before this year!

I think we would have difficulty doing an adult only campout (although it would be fun!) because we have Troop outings pretty much every month of the year.  

My question is how do you reach the units that don't have the leaders with the experience?  The multiple troops together is a good idea, but may be difficult in practice -- the four troops in our area are VERY different in size (50, 45, 30 and 15), level of adventure and level of boy-leadership.

Maybe the answer is a UofS program to get people's interest and then give them the resources to actually learn the skills.

Does your Summer Camp still have a Commissioner's Camp Site where the Commissioner staff offers informal training throughout the week on outdoor skills for adults?  Where the staff may be ofering up dutch oven cooking lessons one morning, with lunch served and knot tying lessons that afternoon?  One of my fondest memories of Summer Camp was being invited as an older Scout to the Commissioner's Site for a lesson in punching up meals with herbs, spices and minerals other than salt, pepper, cinnamon and oregano. 

I've often thought that summer camp would be a great place to teach skills.  Unfortunately, our summer camp doesn't do any adult training.

I'm pretty sure our boys would gladly camp there when we get the opportunity to pay the RIGHTFUL owners.