Hedgehog

If we really want the program to work as it should and serve the scouts as it should than we need parents to understand the program, believe in it, and to the best of their and our ability reinforce it.  The better educated your parents are about how you believe the program should work for their scouts the better chance you have that it actually will work.

It is worth spending whatever time necessary with a parent to get them to understand and buy into what a boy-led advancement process means and how it operates.  For new crossovers, what is happening in Scouts is happening in school.  What parent wouldn't want their son to be responsible for understanding, tracking and completing their own homework?

I've never had any push back from parents when I explain how scouting is about learning responsibility -- first for the scout themselves and then for others.  Explaining to them that I'd be glad to sit down with their son and their patrol leader / patrol guide and have the patrol leader or guide work with their son to come up with a plan to help their son meet their advancement goals. 

The bottom line with parents is TRUST.  They need to trust the leaders and the program we provide.  They don't trust us if we blow them off and tell them that its the boy's problem.  The do trust us when we explain that we will work with the boy leaders who will work with their son to make sure their son is getting what they want out of the program.

It's rather interesting how many of the parent/leaders in the troop who normally sit in the back of the room and talk quietly among themselves will creep up to the group of boys and sit quietly and learn what the boys are being taught.  Some have gone so far as to even ask questions on the topic being taught.  It would seem that the desire to be outdoors is not limited to the boys.

 

So, with newbie adults, where's my pool of backwoods people to lead the boys out into the woods and know what they're going?

I think they are right there in front of us.  On campouts, I take the time to talk to the new parents and find out what their interests are.  I've found that anyone who has interests in the outdoors or exercise -- from hiking, to skiing, to biking, to running -- are always up for the challenge of learning new skills.  We often get the idea that we have a lock on knowing the skills.  Why not ask some of the parents to learn the knots and then teach them to the boys - splitting the boys into two groups with each group learning a different knot and then having each group of boys teach the other group?  Why not have a speaker in to talk about backpacking gear to the boys -- you will be surprised how many parents listen in and take notes.  Each year I do a backpacking gear presentation for the Webelos and new Scouts -- ymost parents sit in the back and listen.  Who doesn't like buying new toys to use in playing outside? If we make the program exciting for the boys, it becomes exciting for the adults.

I'd have no problem with the above, provided that evolution of his equipment occurred over time.  My first trip with my sons' troop (of which I'm now an ASM), I had a 10 lb tent, and slept on a cot.  Since then I've evolved to a hammock with a tarp, but I actually think it's best for an adult leader to start with what they have, and to change based on what they see the troop doing. 

First Boy Scout campout used a 5 pound two person tent.  Then bought a 2 pound 2 person backpacking tent.  Then bought a 4 season tent.  Then bought a hammock and tarp (used that all last week without the tarp since the weather was so nice).  Then bought a tarp that can be set up as a tent using treking poles.  

I have an "article" that I wrote on gear and provide a list of recommended equipment (updated each year) to new scouts and adults crossing over.  We are in the process of replacing the current Eureka troop tents with lightweight backpacking tents to reflect a focus on lightweight backpacking.

How many of your scouters really have 1st class skills?

Let's see... SM and 3 ASMs are Eagles, another 3 ASMs have hiked, backpacked and camped extensively on their own, 2 ASM are former Navy guys that love the outdoors (and they know knots!).  We've got one ASM who is an engineer and who loves bicycling and is getting into backpacking (even taking his daughter on a 15 mile trip on his own).  Yeah, our scouters probably would (and some have) go camping even if heir sons aren't on the trip.

When you get that core of excited adults, it draws in other adults and their kids to the troop.  Our troop has a reputation for doing fun activities and for being boy-led.  

We welcome adults to come and camp with us when their son's cross over -- the only caveat is that the boys have to tent with another scout and the parents tent with the adult patrol (200 feet away).  We feed the parents well (bbq ribs, corn bread, apple sauce and cole slaw, egg, cheese and Canadian bacon croissants, Italian sausages on rolls, Monte Cristo sandwiches, etc. all cooked on camp stoves, cast iron frying pans and Dutch ovens) and teach what boy-led means by example ("here is your coffee cup and that's your chair").  We model how a patrol operates with everyone pitching in to help.  As one parent said after their first campout with us, "you had me at hello."  The adults push each other in skill competency - from making rope neckerchief slides, to making soup can wood stoves for cooking, to cooking hot dogs using milk cartons, to frying donuts in a dutch oven to talking about the outdoor activites we do outside of scouting.

I'm sure some of you are thinking "sure that works if you are in a rural area" but our troop is in the middle of suburbia in New Jersey.  Simply put, our troop invites the boys and their parents to have fun in the outdoors.

BTW, where did you go and how was the trip?

We did the Monadnock Sunapee Greenway Trail in New Hampshire:  http://www.msgtc.org It was very challenging for everyone involved.  It was the longest trek in days and distance than any of us had ever done.  We all hit a wall at some point on the trek but managed to dig deep and push on.  At the finish, there was a sense of tremendous accomplishment and we had fun along the way.  I'll probably post a more detailed description and some lessons learned in a separate topic.

Based on my experience, I'd say eight months.

My son crossed over at the end of March two years ago.  I was the Cubmaster for the Pack.  First Troop meeting I attended, I was asked to be an ASM and encouraged by my son.  Took Outdoor Leadership training over a weekend.  A couple of weeks later, the Troop was going to cancel the May campout (which would be the first for the new scouts) because of lack of interest by older scouts and the current leaders.  I stepped up and worked with the incoming SPL to run a mini-skills campout -- Toten Chit, Fireman Chip and making first aid kits.  Attended summer camp that summer with the Troop.  In September became one of the two ASMs responsible for the outdoor program.  With a new SM, we began emphasizing Boy-Led on camp outs.  Adults now camp 200 feet away.  

I grew up wandering around the woods in the Poconos in Northeastern Pennsylvania at my family's modest vacation home (which was built by my Eagle Scout father).  Maybe camped out a dozen nights growing up -- including nights in friends' back yards. My Dad taught me to fish, pick berries, row and sail.  I didn't do BSA.  For Cub Scouts, I organized the campouts which were the parents were cooking dinner and making the camp fire.  Everyone was camping out as families and then getting up in the morning and going home.  As soon as my son and I crossed over, I immersed myself in Boy Scouts learning as much as I could about the program.  The training helped as did these forums.  I also did hours and hours of research regarding camping and backpacking gear - so much that I'm now the Troop expert on gear.  I subscribed to Backpacker magazine (heck, I was able to do it with unused airline miles) and bought a bunch of books on ultralight backpacking, survival skills and camp cooking.

I'm close to camping out 50 nights (both with and without the Troop) since my son crossed over.  One of the other ASMs and I camped out in 25 degree weather while taking Wilderness First Aid classes -- because we could!  I've hiked or backpacked close to 200 miles over the last three years.  I'm a merit badge counselor for Camping, Backpacking, Hiking and Cooking.  I just finished a 52 mile backpacking trek with 5 boys (and another adult) on Saturday.

It is when we think that there is some pre-requisite to being a leader that we turn people off.  Seriously, how many of you would welcome a leader who was used to organizing and leading Cub Scout events, had never been a Boy Scout himself and who took a 20 pound 8 person tent and an inflatable air mattress on campouts?  My son's Troop did.

On backpacking trips and cold weather campouts, cotton is prohibited except for your bandana.

On the trail, X-Officio underwear.  A pair will last a week, but I bring a second pair so I can feel fresh and clean mid-week.

It is easy to find synthetic t-shirts in both long and short sleeve.  Working on having our Troop switch to synthetic for our Class B.

REI or Smartwool wool hiking socks with silk liner socks.  Again, two pairs for a week.  Use, rinse, repeat.

If we are talking cold weather, either Capilene or Smartwool as the base layer.  If it is extreme cold, then UnderArmour Coldgear has the best base layer.

Throw in my Padagonia wool sweater, my Marmot Zeus jacket and my BSA synthetic switchback pants and I'm good to go.

 some anachronistic leftover from a by-gone era.

Wow.  If that is how we view the program, we are destined to fail.  

Just look at television shows: Survivor, Bear Grylis, Survivorman, Naked and Afraid, Fat Guy in the Woods or movies like Wild.  Just look at the success of stores like REI and Eastern Mountain Sports.  What we do is cool.  Heck, even for the new guys, what could be better than being at camp for a week, staying up late at night playing cards.  I tell our scouts that the only reason I'm there is to teach them to play with knives and fire.  I tell the parents that this is the one activity the kids come home dirty and they have to tell them "good job." 

I don't care about the boys that choose other activites instead of scouting.  I do care about the boys who ask me "what are we doing next month?" when we get in the car to go home from a campout.  

If we can't run a program that we are excited about, then we are the problem.  

I'm excited every time we go to the weekly meeting or a PLC meeting.  I'm really excited every time we meet up to set out on an adventure.  I'm excited to see kids (including my own son) look out from the top of a mountain and say "wow, this is really beautiful."  I'm excited when a new scout struggles on a 6 mile hike but completes it and tells me "that is the longest hike I've ever taken in my life."  I'm excited when a new scout tells me that they got a new backpack and sleeping bag or shows me their new knife.  I"m excited hearing what scouts say to their parents when we get back from a trip.  

Guys, we've been given a tremendous opportunity to "be important in the life of a boy."  We've all heard the end of the poem, but do you know that it is about scouting?  

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/12/11/forest-witcraft-quote-first-appeared-scouting-magazine/

That is what this movement is about.  Not the stupid politics, not the adult power games, not arguing over how much technology, not G2SS, not the Guide to Advancement, not the knots on our uniforms -- but making a difference in the life of our boys.  If you look at it that way, failure is not an option.

@@Hedgehog sounds like your unit does not recover gas and other expenses as part of your camp costs. $25 for food and campsite? Where is gas, propane, and other incidentals recovered.

Campsites come out to $10 a scout (around $250 for a group of 25).  Breakfast is $3, Lunch is $3, Dinner is $5 and Breakfast is $3.  That totals $14.  The additional $1 per scout -- or $25 per campout goes to propane and paper towels (the majority of the consumables we use).

We also ask the adults to pay the same amount as the boys for the site and food.  We don't get any complaints because the adults eat better for that $25 than they would at a restaurant spending four times that amount (we've had strip steaks, baby back ribs, chili for dinner, eggs with canadian bacon on croissants or blueberry pancakes for breakfast, brats on rolls  or italian sausages for lunch).  Who wouldn't pay $25 to get away from it all for a weekend (another advantage to boy-led is you actually do get to relax)?

The rest of the costs (gear and other consumables) come out of dues and fundraising.  We don't pay for gas for the cars unless it is a really long trip (e.g. more than 300 miles round trip). 

Today, the Scouts in my home town have to travel 50 miles or more to get away from all the congestion and noise.  The trips  are over-supervised, over-organized, and over-priced.

We can always find something to complain about.  Our troop is in suburbia in the middle of the most densly populated state in the country, but we find a way to do it.

Cost of 5 day backpacking trip = $30 ($25 to cover gas for driving 300 miles and $5 to cover maps and guidebooks) plus your own food (but heck, you have to eat anyway).  The drive is 6 hours but the experience is priceless.

Cost of weekend sea kayaking trip = $40 ($10 for state park campsite for two nights $15 for 2 hour kayak rental; $15 for food).  The drive is 2 hours but the fun lasts all weekend.  Adults make the reservations, boys do the rest.

Cost of 3 day backpacking trip - $0.00 plus your own food.  Drive is one to two hours to get to the AT in NY, NJ or PA.

Cost of typical weekend campout with hike - $25 ($10 campsite plus $15 food).  We drive 1 to 3 hours to get to campsites and the boys plan the Saturday activitiy including service projects, hikes, boating, fishing, wilderness survival, etc.

Compare that to what you would pay doing those trips with REI or Backroads.  Heck, REI charges $50 just to teach map and compass skills.  How about the costs of sports program or summer camp?  

Help the boys understand the options that are out there and then tell them you will support them in whatever they decide to do.  Once they start doing adventurous things in the outdoor program they want to do more.  If you think there are problems with the outdoor program for your troop, then get involved.

It is hard for me to belive that the program is failing.  Our Troop is over 50 boys.  We are boy-led and that is the main selling point for both the boys who join our Troop and their parents.  The parents recognize that this is the safest environment to let go and give the boys independence and the boys love being responsible.

I'm going on a six day 50 mile backpacking trek with 5 boys and one other adult next week. The boys are aged 12, 13, 13,15 and 17.  Although I suggested the trail, the boys maped out the how far we are going each day, where we are camping and got directions for the adults to drive to the trail.  They are each cooking for themselves -- the only exception being that my son and his best friend are going to cook together for themselves and me.  There are three maps, none of which are being carried by the adults.  

I spent time with around 30 of our boys at Scout Camp this summer.  I saw our older guys taking care of the younger guys.  I saw them all interacting, playing cards and chess with each other.  I've seen our guys kick up the cooking a notch using cast iron skillets and Dutch ovens on campouts.  I've seen them canoe, hike, backpack and cycle -- going on adventures that they will remember for a lifetime.  Seriously how cool is it to bike 25 miles to a campout,  hike to a mansion that was abandoned in the 60s, canoe 20 miles and then backpack another 10, hike a trail with more than 20 waterfalls or go sea kayaking?

All scouting is local.  If a Troop is failing, then look at how it is implementing the program.  

Most SPLS are better at scouting skills and rbusy unning their meetings training up good scouts [program] than they are at coddling webelos parents who have a million questions.  the SPL covers some stuff in a talk to the visiting webelos and their parents and then he wants the webelos to go try out what scouting in his troop is like.  The parents want to hover and watch and interfere.

 

So then it's appropriate to hand the parents off to someone else, Scoutmaster or an adult membership/recruiting chair who gets the adults out of the boy's meeting. 

 

So SPL talks mostly to the visiting scouts with parents hanging out.

The SM does a sm conference with visiting webelos and may do a quick talk to the parents too..

 

In our Troop, the SPLs start off the meeting, have the Webelos come up and introduce themselves, go through our Troop portion of the meeting and then send the Webelos off with the patrols.  The PLs answer the Webelos' questions.  The SPL then takes the parents aside and talks to them.  The SM is there, but remains silent except to answer questons that the SPL can't answer (which are very few).  Thus, the adults are out of the patrol meetings and the boys get to experience what really happens.  There is nothing that explains boy-led better than having a boy demonstrate what it means to the parents by actually leading.  To me, this experience is the beginning of buy-in to the boy-led concept by the adults.  Every one of them is sitting there thinking that in 5 years, the person up in front could be their son and they also understand that all the advancement stuff just happens when the program is run by boys who want to have fun and want to go on adventures in the outdoors.  

I really think the way our Troop does visits says something about the way our troop is run. Thre are three other troops in our town, each is different and has a different feel.  Some run like well oiled machines (due to the adults), others are small and tight knit, another has a longstanding Scoutmaster and we are a rag-tag bunch of disorganized goofballs who somehow manage to pull off a great program.  But as our incoming SPL always tells me, "Mr. Hedgehog, that is just how we roll."

I remember sitting in on a Patrol Meeting when a group of Webelos visit.  One of them asked, "how often do you have elections for Patrol Leader?"  The PL responded that we have annual elections.  The scout then said, "Wow, so I guess there isn't a lot of opportunity to get a leadership position for advancement."  I was ready to jump in, wanting to respond to a question that was clearly fed to the boy by parent.  But I didn't need to.  The APL easily jumped into an explanation of what a position of responsibility was (not just being a patrol leader), how different scouts serve as leaders on camp outs when the PL or APL can't make it and how there were a lot of opportunities to learn and practice leadership even if you don't have a title.  My turn to say "WOW!" and take another sip of my coffee.

@@Hedgehog I think there's stuff kids want to know and stuff parents want to know. Sometimes we get lost in the boy-led discussion and forget that the Webelos haven't had that yet and parents (akela) are still very much the leaders.

 

When we were looking we spent a few meetings with the boys putting together their list of questions. Parents did the same. The boys asked the questions of the other boys while the parents got their questions answered by the SM.

 

There are considerations requiring adult review in the troop selecting process.

My concerns about the list of questions is: 1) that they are directed to the SM not the SPL; 2) most of those questions can be answered by observing a meeting;  3) some of them are answered by our SPLs presentation to the adults; and 4) they did not include the most important question - "do you guys have fun?"   

 

I think it's important to remember that these boys, if they don't have an older brother in, they don't know what patrol method is (for example).... or boy lead.  They might have heard of it, but the don't really know.... so they don't know to look for it, they don't know what to ask.  They might not even understand why it's important to look for it, even after it's explained or demonstrated!  

Pretty much every Webelo who visits our Troop understands what boy-led means by the time they leave the meeting.  The boys start the meeting, run the Troop meeting, run the patrol breakouts, run the Troop activity and run the closing.  Adults only speak when asked by a boy leader.  The boys always talk it up because they really value the fact that we are boy-led.  The only role they see adults in is standing on the sidelines, occasionally chatting with one of the boy leaders during a break -- sort of like a coach talks to a quarterback before they go into the game.  The adults get a presentation from the SPL and ASPL.  It is clear that they are in charge.  

My last thought is that asking questions up front isn't a good idea.  Listen.  You will hear what the troop thinks is important.  For our troop, what is important is boy-led, the outdoor program and having fun at the meetings while learning skills.  When you ask questions, you are focusing on what you think is important and that my influence the response.

Maybe my views on recruiting are different.  We have almost 60 scouts and our concern is that we get too many boys.  The other thing is that folks in the community know how our Troop runs -- from older brothers, guys that crossed over from the pack, parents who talk up the troop, etc.  

Our boys typically start cooking at 5:00, eat by 6:00, clean up by 6:30 and have a fire going by 7.  The desserts are in the Dutch Oven and the Jiffy Pop comes out.  Then desserts and then marshmallows.  That is around 8:00.   Our guys don't do skits, but they can easily do 3 hours of banter around the fire.  Jokes, stories, etc.  Me, I just make a cup of coffee and hot coca and sit in my chair.  

As for the firewood, the boys typically collect it and cut it in the afternoon (if permitted) and have never had a problem running out.

Here's my suggestion, ask the boys ahead of time what they want to do and let them figure it out.

To make it easier on the 4 troops we visited, we emailed the SM the list and let him answer in his own words.

If you sent that list to me, you would get a response like this:

You and the other adults can ask all of those questions to our Senior Patrol Leader when you come and visit -- he's in charge.  The boys can ask any questions they have to the Patrol Leader of the patrol they are assigned to for the meeting. I think that the decision of what Troop a boy joins should be his decision based on the things that are important to him -- not those things that are important to the adults.  Ultimately, the best person to ask questions to is your son and the best question to ask after the meeting is "did you have fun?"  Then listen to what he says.

My advice, don't bother asking questions.  Just visit and observe what happens.

In our Troop we don't do anything different when Webelos visit.  That would completely disrupt our schedule because we have scouts from at least four packs that come and visit - usually on different days.  The Webelos are assigned by the SPL to one of the three patrols that isn't running the Troop portion of the meeting.  The PLs for those patrol answer any questions the scouts have and then run a regular patrol meeting.  During the patrol meetings the SPL meets with the parents and tells them about the troop, hands out our spring calendar and answers questions.  The SM and ASMs just sit back and watch.  The Webelos, the parents and the rest of the scouts return to the main room for the Troop portion of the meeting (an activity in line with the month's theme and then a game). The parents watch what we lovingly call controlled chaos.  At the end, we circle up, tell jokes and wrap it up.  You then hear all of the scouts coming to the parents and telling them they had so much fun.  After the fact, I've had parents tell me that their kids love the fact that the troop is boy-led.

Our 6 day backpacking trek in beautiful New Hampshire - total cost to scouts is $30 plus they have to provide their own food.  The $25 goes to cover gas for the adults driving (600 miles of gas is expensive) and $5 goes to cover the cost of detailed maps.  As they say in the commercials, waking up on a clear morning with a view from a mountain top -- priceless.

Most of our backpacking treks don't cost anything (well, except the cost to acquire the right gear).  On the flip side, we've done weekend canoe trips that cost $75 per scout (not including food).  Our average weekend campout costs $25 ($10 for site rental, $14 for food and $1 for consumables like propane, paper towels, etc.).  We try to keep costs down to encourage participation.

On top of that, our boys had a bad experience at the last Jambo because we didn't send any leaders -- but at least they understand what it feel like when a troop is NOT  boy led.

It has become obvious to me that my presence is neither encouraged or appreciated. The STRONG personalities in this troop are making it very hard to continue to stay active. 

This to me is a big red flag.  I can't imagine turning away any Eagle Scout parent who wants to help.  Heck, our Troop woud take Girl Scout parents, former Cub Scout parents or even just a scout's parent.  Maybe that is because our Troop's leadership changes as boys age out with new parents taking up roles as the parents of scouts aging out become less involved.  If a new scout's parent hangs around for more than one meeting, we give them an application.

The idea of making a parent feel unwelcome and the idea of "strong personalities" just seems to me to be a sign of a troop being adult-led.  Those folks always seem to me to be the ones who run the program their way and want to be in charge -- the SMs who retest at Board of Review, the SMs who tell the boys what merit badges they can and can't do at camp, the SMs that assign leadership positions, the SMs who lead the patrols supplanting the PLs.

The question here is how is the Troop run --  is it boy-led or SM led?  If it isn't boy-led, find a Troop that is.

@@Stosh - Don't assume that all parents who want to become involved are there to be their son's best friend.  Some of us parents enjoy the outdoors and whant to share that experience with the boys in the troop.  Although I love going on scouting adventures with my son, he knows that I'm there to serve all the boys in the Troop and not just to hang out with or take care of him.  I actually spend more of my time coaching and mentoring the Troop's leadership and the new scouts than I do with my son.  The times I do interact with my son as his dad, I'm coaching and encouraging him -- not trying to be his best friend.  

Assuming the kids are under 18, you are responsible for their safety and they are required to do what you tell them in that area.

Don't ask, tell.  Refusing a request, "who want's to put on sunscreen?" is one thing.  Refusing an instruction, "Make sure you put on sunscreen" is insubordination.  What do you do about life jackets when canoing or kayaking?  Ask, "who wants to put on a life jacket?"  Of course not.  Safety is not optional.

A scout is obedient.  Make the rule that you must have sunscreen unless their parent provides you a written waiver signed by the parent and the scout acknowledging that the scout will likely get sunburn and could develop complications later in life.

@, I don't think we are disagreeing.

MBCs have some latitude here. It it's obvious the scout planned or completed the activity according to the requirements it should be immaterial who went along for the trek, as long as the requirements were met.

I think that is the test.  If it counts for the merit badge, it counts for the award.  For the Hiking merit badge, they need to prepare a hike plan and do the hike for it to count.  It doesn't matter who they do it with.  For the Backpacking merit badge they have to "participate" in the three 3 day 15 mile treks and write a plan for and then do the 5 day 30 mile hike.  Again, it doesn't matter who they do it with.  For those badges, I accept hikes and treks done with family or other groups because the requirements don't say it has to be done through scouting.   I have a scout going on a 4 day backpacking trip with his Eagle Scout Uncle in Alaska this summer -- you can bet I"m giving him credit for that for the Backpacking Merit Badge.  

Outside of the merit badge context, nothing done with family counts.  My son and I could backpack the entire AT next summer and that wouldn't count toward the award.  I guess that makes sense because it forces scout programs to become more outdoor oriented (you want the award, you plan outdoor activities that count toward the award).  Fortunately, as a troop, we camp 12+ nights a year (not including summer camp), hike 5 to 8 miles on most campouts, have monthly bike rides or hikes,  try to schedule two 15 mile backpacking treks and one thirty plus mile trek and do at least one float trip.

badwolf I used this water system on the AT

http://www.amazon.com/Platypus-GravityWorks-Filter-System-4-Liter/dp/B00G4V4IVQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435845945&sr=8-1&keywords=platapus+water+filter

 

what I did was left the clean bag at home and used the dirty bag to fill my water  Reservoir in my pack with out having to remove it from the pack just stick the nipple in the drink tube it worked out well. 

 

while in camp I would fill both water reservoir in the packs and the dirty bag and hang that from a tree since it filters the water on demand. 

 

You do have to back flush it if you are using a lot of dirty murky water but that is not hard just life your pack up above the filter and it will clean all the mud out of it.

 

I also took tables potable aqua as a back up but never had to use them. 

 

I also did some testing I put the potable aqua in the dirty bag and then filtered it and it removed the Iodine taste and color from the water.

 

I have heard the Ultraviolet light systems work great until they stop working

I love the Platypus.  It is lightweight and quick.  You fill up the DIRTY bag when you see water and can filter when you get to camp.  No effort required.  Been using the same filter for around 20 nights with no problems - often for multiple scouts.  You don't need the CLEAN bag and the system is less expensive without it.  Find a 20% off coupon and it is a great deal.  I actually, saw it on sale and bought a second one.  Now I bring two DIRTY bags and one set of filters.  Can carry twice as much water into camp.

How often do we see discussions on that come up here, with differing approaches.

But come on, really how complicated is it really?!?  

It's a pretty simple concept!!!  But there's so much stress created by it  

Define, we all do the same thing... simple

ONE program, no headaches.....

I think there is generally one program.  The difference is in how it is implemented.  Boy-led is the program.  The adult-led troops are not delivering the program.  However, even in boy-led troops, there is a wide range of HOW the boys lead.   In practice, boy-led means something different in a troop of 8 boys than a troop of 50 boys.  Heck, in our troop, the boy-led means something different depending on which boy is leading and even means somthing different with the same boy at the beginning of the year and the end of the year.

Makes no never mind to me what they decide.  I only create opportunities.

@@Stosh - We are in agreement.  What you call creating opportunity by discussing what you have done, I call coaching by making suggestions and asking questions.

Me:  "You guys want to do something involving a float trip... what could we do?"

Scouts: "Canoeing or sea kayaking"

Me: "Caneing on a river or in a lake?"

Scouts:  "We like going on the Delaware."

Me: "We did that last year, do you think that would affect turn out?"

Scouts: "No, we did it last year and want to do it again."

Me: "OK, what about sea kayaking?"

Scouts:  "How about in the fall?"

Me: "We can do that.  Do you want a one day trip or a campout?"

Scouts: "It would be great if we could camp out - the weather is usually great for camping in the fall."

Assuming the trek plans are done before the trek and all the elements are accounted for, and the trek log updated after the trek, sure.

For any of those treks, my son did all the planning and all the navigation -- they count for the badges and therefore they count for the award.

Agreed.  But, if a scout does a 3 day 15 mile backpacking trip with his family and that counts as a requirement for the Backpacking Merit Badge (which it does, because there is no "under the auspices" requirement for the Backpacking Merit Badge), then it counts for the award.  Same for bicycling -- the rides for the Cycling Merit Badge don't have to be done as part of the troop.  Being done for a merit badge and being done as a family thing are not mutally exclusive - in most cases. Going camping is a different story, because the Camping Merit Badge requires 20 nights of camping at "designated Scouting activities or events."

Found this:  http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/03/13/interpreting-under-the-auspices-in-national-outdoor-awards-requirements/

Bryan says that you get credit for what you do for merit badges -- which in some instances can be done on an individual basis.  So the 16 mile backpacking trip my son and I did for his backpacking merit badge counts as well as the 12 mile hike that we did which qualifies for his hiking merit badge.

Nope, the boys decide what they want to do.  If they want to go rustic, fine.  If they want to plop, fine,  If they mix it up, fine.  I don't gotta do nuttin'  

Quarterback:  I'm going to call four passing plays this series.

Coach: You're in charge.

OR

Quarterback: I'm going to call four passing plays this series.

Coach: Their secondary has been playing behind our receivers and they have two substitutes in for linebackers, you might want to think about a play action.

“Scouting is a game for boys under the leadership of boys under the direction of a man.†Baden Powel.  

When it comes to the outdoor program, we are there to guide, suggest and to provide considerations.  That way, the boys learn how to make good decisions and, eventually how to guide, suggest and provide considerations.  In the meantime, the program doesn't suffer because the boys haven't been taught how to lead.