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Hedgehog

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Posts posted by Hedgehog

  1. His points were that there really didn't need to be more than 1 or 2 ASMs in a troop, regardless of size.  More or less a general idea is that one of them would be considered sort of like a 1st ASM, who is in training to take the SM job at some set date in the future.

     

    And the bigger point was that ASMs should never really be talking with a scout at all, unless specifically directed by the SM... as in the SM putting the words into the ASM's mouth to pass on... That ALL adult interaction in a troop should go through the SM only....

     

    .....with the point being to eliminate mixed messages, misunderstandings, directives or ideas not in keeping with the SM's vision, and so on

     

    and related to this, I think it was in another podcast where he discussed the idea that troops today generally have far too many adult members.  that we shouldn't be having excess adults camping beyond the SM and ASM, and if a parent or committee member does attend that it be strictly regulated as a distant observer, with no direct contact with any scout.  that the SM's & ASM's biggest charge is to be in charge of the adults, to keep them at a distance.  Basically to remember that this is the scouts' troop.  It is their game to play.  It is their journey.  It's not our journey, we shouldn't be having the parent patrol playing the game of scouting in the troop.

     

     

    Interesting.  Our troop has an SM, a 1st ASM (me) and a cadre of other ASMs.  A handful of the other ASMs (usually the same two or three) come on outings - we have at least 1 adult for every 10 boys.

     

    Typically, the SM and I are the ones who talk to the boys and then typically only to the SPL, ASPL, PLs a APLs at the Friday night PLC meeting.

     

    We do our best to keep the other adults out of the way of the boys.  Most of the ASMs that have been around get it.  The new ones take a little bit of time to get used to it.  We make a point about talking up boy-led around the adult campfire.  The adults operate like a patrol and have our own area to camp, have our own set of gear, cook our own food and have our own campfire.  I suspect most of us are there because we enjoy each other's company and enjoy camping.

  2. We have three COH's a year -- October, February and June.  October is cider and donuts, February is pot luck with every family bringing something and June is burgers and hot dogs with the families bring the side dishes.  The food is organized by the adults (really just one e-mail), supplies are purchased by adults and food is cooked by the adults in June.  Honestly, this is one of the areas that I don't care is run by the adults.  It gives the adults a chance to be involved and to do something nice for the boys.  I'd rather the boys run the COH than organize the food.

  3. Sounds like age based patrols rather than a NSP.  My understanding is that the NSP is for short term use.  The best use I saw for it was for crossover scouts from when they join until summer camp.

     

    I would reform all the patrols letting the boys choose.  Now, considering that as an ASM in my troop, I'm unable to get that accomplished, you also will be met with unsurmountable obstacles.

     

    So the best realistic solution is to give them the freedom to fail.  They are really in a power struggle with the adults -- from you, to the SPL, to the TG to their parents and grandparents.  From what you are saying, it seems like they keep winning in that struggle.  The only way to solve that is to give them complete control over their destiny.

     

    My sense is that it goes like this.  The TG tells the PL that he will be with his patrol and will be available if the PL needs him to do something.  The SPL goes about other duties.  The patrol come in to their meeting space.  You pull up a chair and start reading this: http://www.amazon.com/Scouting-Boys-Original-Edition-Recreations/dp/0486457192.  They ask what they should do, you respond, "it is up to you, you guys are in charge."  Any other questions, the responses should be similar --  "Boy-led means you make your own decisions" "See what it says on the shirt?  'Boy Scouts' do i look like a boy to you?"  "It's your patrol, you guys have to decide."  

     

    It can't be any worse that what you describe.  However, there is a good possibility that when they realize that an adult isn't going to try to tell them what to do (which allows them to misbehave by not doing that) or that an adult isn't going to come to their rescue (which gives them no incentive to do the right thing), they may just decide to get their act toghether.

  4. It's good to have a variety of interests. But you've got to watch out with the throwing knives and tomahawks, the next thing you know the kids will be using water guns. :)

     

     

    We'd never use water guns.  We prefer foam water pump squirt toys :http://www.amazon.com/Foam-Water-Squirt-assorted-colors/dp/B005GPCL1K

     

    Seriously, we don't go canoeing or kayaking without them (provided the weather is warm enough to get a little wet).

  5. First Committee meeting I attended, adults decided on one of the campouts "because that is an easy on to do."  My wife had to talk me out of quitting after that meeting.

     

    With the new SM, things changed.  We DID ask the boys what they wanted to do.  The answer was COPE courses, rock climbing, backpacking treks, canoeing, climbing mountains, bicycling to camp, backpacking into summer camp, sea kayaking, camping in Maryland and touring Washington D.C. and more.  We did those.  We kept asking -- the adventures on the boy's lists now are building snow shelters and sleeping in them, cross country skiing and snowshoing, horseback riding, fishing, mountain biking, sailing (on a lake and also overnight on a larger boat) and a wilderness survival campout.  The latest trend at camps are Mountain Boards -- pretty much an all terrain skateboard.  Yep, that's on the list.  An upcoming campout is an Iron Chef competition and maybe an hour at the rifle range.

     

    We've gotten so activity based that one younger scout asked about the last campout, "so what is the activity we're doing?"  The boys got to decide when they got there and settled on a hike, throwing knives and tomahawks and playing chess.

     

    It took some adult leadership to get the outdoor program kickstarted and into the hands of the boys.  Now it is their program.  The next goal is to get them to come up with the complete plan for the trip -- including figuring out where we camp, how to get there, what activitiy and how we get the gear or supplies to do it.  Then, we've really taught them to be prepared for life.

  6. @@Hedgehog

     

    Sounds like your unit is smaller and closer in age/rank categories than ours. We have no issues with T2FC guys getting their cooking in AND the cooking MB guys getting their turn. In fact, there are many times the two can help each other. We have 3-4 unit based trail opportunities a year, 10-12 patrol based opportunities and 2 high adventure opportunities. Could be my unit is just different.

     

    Sounds like you have a good set up that works for you. Should post pics of the iron chef stadium.

     

    We are around 50 scouts, pretty evenly dispersed by grade.  I'll take some pictures and post them when we do it in May.  The four towers of stacked Dutch ovens is a pretty cool sight (they are stacked together on our patio so as not to leave burn marks on the lawn).  I'll also get pictures of the dinners that were served.  I'm still trying to find a suitable trophy that can be given out each year and passed on.  

     

    Maybe it's not enough... :)

     

     

    I'm always for camping more.  Tried to convince my son to try out the new four season tent in the last storm that dropped 24 inches... for some reason he didn't want to.

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  7. @@Stosh, the integrating new scouts to the troop has been the boy leader's problem to solve.  We have boys coming from at least three Packs (last two years it was four Packs) from February through the end of March or even April (after the School District's spring break).  Last year the boys wanted to try the NSP idea because they thought that it would help the Patrol Leaders by eliminating a disruption. The idea was to keep the NSP until the June Court of Honor.  The leaders of the NSP was the former SPL and ASLP (who are with the troop as 18 year-old Eagle ASMs).  They found it difficult to control that much concentrated energy and excitement.  The new scouts started asking as soon as the second week they were there when they could "really join Boy Scouts" and "be part of a real patrol."  It takes a lot for a boy to admit that their idea isn't working and when they do, I listen.  They changed the idea and instead worked with the scouts for two weeks to get the Scout badge / rank.  Then the boys are integrated with a patrol.   I suspect that issue will come up at the next PLC because we are expecting boys to cross over shortly.

     

    As for the scared cow of the elections and patrol assignments, it grew out of the boys idea to have mixed age patrols because the boys that were in charge remembered when they were new scouts and were treated like second class citizens by the older scouts.  Way elections are run and the way patrols are assigned is an outgrowth of that but is an adult scared cow which the boys have learned to accept as being the "best way" because the adults said so.  I've been sowing the seeds of doubt in the scouts by pointing out advantages and disadvantages.  Again, like other changes, I have a plan to make gradual changes that move in the right direction without declaring an open coup d' etat.  It's like boiling a frog.  If you throw a frog in boiling water, it will jump out.  If you gradually increase the temperature of the water, you will have very fresh boiled frog legs.

     

    This seems to have gotten a little off topic.  My point was that the changing dynamics of a troop with changes in leadership, boys aging out and new boys joining sometimes will stall progress toward boy-led.  The new leaders have a learning curve where it is easy for an adult to jump in to help.  The new scouts are learning to be independent and it is easy for them to look for an adult for leadership.  Even new parents mean well but can undo progress by simply being helpful.  Boy led is not intuitive for the adults or the boys.  It has to be nurtured and encouraged and protected.  And yes, sometimes it requires adults to scheme to overthrow scared cows.

  8. This is the kind of example that drove us to change our minimum qualifications for just about everything in our troop.

     

     

    We typically give the boys options with an adult override if we think the scout isn't qualified.  The only time I had to do something resembling an override is when a parent of a Webelos crossover asked if their son who had never backpacked before should consider doing the 50 miler.  I told them that he wasn't ready and they agreed.  That being said, I had a 12 year old accompany us on that trek and that was his first multiday backpacking trek (he had backpacked into a campout once before).  I knew the boy from Cub Scouts and knew he could do it.

     

    We often set up outdoor adventures in two tiers.  Our council's COPE course has a segment for 14 and older boys, so the youger guys did the climbing wall instead.  We had a campout where we cycled 27 miles into camp.  A separate group drove into the campsite.  We have had backpacking treks where we start out on Friday night and the boys do 4 mile Friday night and 4 miles Saturday morning before meeting up with the rest of the group to do 5 miles on Saturday and 4 on Sunday with the younger scouts.  We are trying to plan a winter campout where they boys can build and sleep in snow shelters or sleep in tents or sleep in a cabin -- their choice.

  9. :)  Knowing this occurs every year should be an indicator that this process is not the best. 

     

     

    The boys tried the NSP last year and decided that it didn't work.  The new scouts cross over at different times, so it was difficult for the older scouts to teach any skills because in two weeks three more scouts would arrive.  Also, the new scouts kept asking why they weren't allowed to be with the rest of the troop.  The new scouts want to hang out with the older boys -- that is the fun part of joining boy scouts.

     

    The PLs and APLs have to adjust a bit to accomidate the new scouts.  It becomes a little bit more difficult to keep the patrol focused and on task.  It seems like the guys who have been around for a year and have matured just revert back to being Webelos.  We now have the older boys who are in the JASM and ASM (18 year old Eagles) roles provide coaching and support to the PLs and APLs so that they have strategies for handling the addition of scouts to their patrols.

     

    Then we aslo don't do elections either so that "learning curve" is never a problem, especially at the transition time of cross-overs. 

     

    Elections are in June, at the end of the school year.  So it isn't at the same time as the crossover, but three months later.  In the progression of leadership, the Assistant Patrol Leaders tend to become Patrol Leaders and the Patrol Leaders tend to become SPL or ASPL or Guides.  The SPL and ASPL usually become JASMs.  

     

    Is this cycle of new boys and learning curve elections something that is etched in stone for the unit? or can the boys go with something less disruptive?

     

    The crossing over is set in stone based on the four Packs Blue and Gold ceremonies that send us scouts.  We can change how we integrate them and that is a problem the boys are working on (as noted above with them trying the NSP last year and deciding after three weeks that it wasn't working).

     

    Elections and patrol composition are another issue all together (although I suspect you would say and I would acknowledge that it is very intertwined with boy-led).  The way those are done are sacred cows on our troop.  As long as I'm only an ASM, I can only lay the foundation for a change in the future.

  10. I'd prefer for our scouts to build these skills on camp outs. If they know they have to go on camp outs to get cooking done, guess what? They go. They also have a totally different set of preparation and logistics when planning to be away rather than driving to a leader's house.

     

     

    And one also has to take into consideration that while the MB requirements are being met, the opportunity for a weekend of camping is lost.  I guess I think a weekend of camping is probably better for the boys than meeting the requirements of a MB.  I'm thinking that hiking around my house 900 times might make a dent in the Hiking MB, but there's gotta be a better way of doing things than just meeting the requirements.

     

     

    First, the logistics of doing it on a campout would be difficult in coordination with the Tenderfoot through First Class cooking requirements.  When the BSA made cooking a required badge, we had 12 older scouts who needed that badge.  Add that to the fact that prior leadership did not do a lot of campouts that required patrol cooking, so we had around 8 guys who had been in the troop for a couple of years needing the Tenderfoot through First Class cooking requirements (which must be done on a campout) as well as the cooking merit badge.  Add to that another 10 new guys just joined and 10 more joining later that year.  If you add up the cooking merit badges and the Tenderfoot through First requirements we would need 68 (12 + 2x8 + 2x10 + 2x10) opportunities to allow everyone the chance to complete the T-1st requriements and the cooking merit badge.  We have activites 11 months of the year.  One is summer camp and they don't do a good job with the cooking merit badge.  Two to three are backpacking or float trips where the boys cook in pairs.  One is a day hike -- either an urban hike or a backpacking shakedown.  So we have 7 opportunities for cooking. Assuming three patrols per campout, that is 21 opportunities per year.  Add 10 new guys per year, which require 20 more opportunities.... you get the idea.

     

    Second, this allows the boys to focus on cooking skills and spend more time cooking.  The dinner usually takes 3 hours to make.  In addition to what I listed in my earlier post, he boys have made applesauce from apples, home made cole slaw, home made ceasar's salad dressing (with anchovy paste and shaved parmesan cheese), cornbread, etc.  I'll put the cooking skills they learned up against anything the scouts in another troop learn doing the merit badge on a campout.  Those skills have trickled down to the patrols on campouts where the quality of the food has improved.  The older boys who have done the merit badge now guide the younger boys doing the Tenderfoot through First Class requirements.  I'd put my guy's cooking skills against any boy who completed the merit badge on a campout.

     

    Third, I really don't see ANY difference in planning or logistics.  The set-up is identical to what is done on a campout.  The boys joke that my backyard (which is two acres) becomes "Cast Iron Chef Stadium."  That analogy is perfect -- the Iron Chef Stadium on the television show is not the kitchen in a restaurant, but completely replicates the restaurant kitchen.  I'd really like to know what skill the boys who do the cooking merit badge on a campout learn that my boys don't.

     

    Finally, an opportunity for camping isn't lost.  Our program has one outing a month. The merit badge session is in addition to the schedule of outings.  We did the first one on Memorial Day a couple of years ago.  The boys took a break to march in the Memorial Day parade with the rest of the troop.  Our troop has 20 nights of camping a year.  In the three years since my son and I joined, we've will have camped out 60 nights.  I'd really like to know how many more nights the boys who do the cooking merit badge on a campout have.

  11. @@Hedgehog

     

    Everyone of the highlighted areas I pointed out seemed to imply an adult was currently doing these tasks, and my highlights were there to simply ask the question WHY?  Why aren't each of these currently adult tasks not being introduced and worked with a corresponding youth component so that the boys get a chance to see how these often back ground tasks get done in a troop.  Then after the training is done, then turn it over to the boys completely.  This fits very well into your "change comes slowly" emphasis that has been occurring in units moving towards boy-led.

     

     

    Again, I'm not disagreeing with you.  We've talked about this before and I think you understand where I'm coming from.  I also understand that you are pointing those items out to have me (and others) think about what more can be done.  I realize there is still a lot of work to do but for me, the "WHY" is a matter of focusing on what are the most important changes and then accepting that some functions will still be handled by adults -- at least in the short term.

     

    The next change is to have the older boys work with the younger guys in developing menus for campouts.  After that, it is having the boys do the research to find the outdoor adventures -- where to camp and what activities to do.  After that is to get the other POR positions better defined and have an ASPL work with the boys in making the most of those positions.  I've got a list with ten more priorities.

     

    Somewhere in there, we get 10 new crossovers which makes the PLs and APLs jobs more difficult.  Then we have elections and start the learning curve again with a new SPL, new ASPL, new PLs and new APLs.  Fortunately, each year the starting point is a little further ahead the start point for the prior year (but well behind the ending point for the prior leaders).  Oh yeah, we also get a new group of parents and adult leaders which need to be indoctrinated in what it means for a troop to be boy led  -- otherwise, a well meaning adult can trample years of work by trying to be helpful.

     

    It is a gradual process and we need to recognize the progress we make along the boy-led continium but not forget that we have more miles to travel.

  12. I prefer my guys to do their cooking on Scout camp outs for the patrol-based cooking. They can do the home requirements at home on a stove or grill. For the patrol cooking it really should be on a camp out.

     

    Otherwise, for the "trail meal" they could go to the city park around the corner and eat their meal there rather than on an honest to God hike or backpacking trip. ;)

     

    The requirement is "In the outdoors, using your menu plan for this requirement, cook two of the five meals you planned using either a lightweight stove or a low-impact fire."  The last time I checked, my backyard is "in the outdoors."  The boys use the same equipment that the patrols use on campouts -- they set up four tables and four stoves, pull out the four patrol boxes and use eight dutch ovens.    They use water from the water jugs we use at camp and wash dishes using the three basin method.   Their food for the day is stored in pastic bins and in coolers -- just like on campouts.  The only difference is that there are no tents in my back yard and they can use the flushie in my house.  

  13. I was talking with a couple of scouts about having a cooking merit badge session in May.  We do it in one day in my backyard (with the exception of the home and trail cooking).  Make omlettes, grill sausages over a fire and then cook four different dinners and desserts for the parents who join us for dinner.  The dinners, which were cooked in Dutch Ovens, have included chicken caccatori, beef stew, barbarqued spare ribs, italian braised short ribs, lasagne and chili.  The desserts, also cooked in Dutch Ovens, included brownies, apple pie, cheesecake, upside down cake, two layer chocolate cakes and cobblers.  

     

    As for trail cooking, I talk to them about a variety of inexpensive meals to cook that are not freeze dried.  If you have a pot to boil pasta, you can make Kraft Maccaroni and Cheese.  If you can boil water, you can make instant mashed potatoes, instant polenta, instant couscous.  Foil pack chicken (add pesto or other seasoning) or tuna is great for backpacking.  I've dehydrafted ground beef with a variety of sauces -- pasta sauce for meatball sandwiches, sloppy joe sauce for sloppy joes and taco sauce for soft tacos.  I did buy some dehydrated turkey, added some gravy mix and then made mashed potatoes and stuffing (with a small container of cranberry sauce) on the 50 miler over the summer.  Best dinner of the week.  I also show them how to make muffins or cupcakes using a backpacking stove an a pot.

     

    Now I'm hungry...

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  14.  


    The question really is what do you see that provides the boys with real opportunities for leadership.  And yet the question for me is are the items marked in red providing opportunities for the boys or taking them away?  I could have used blue, but we are talking about red flags here. 

     

    You identified a large factor -- leadership buy-in.  You need the SM, CC and ASMs on the same page.  Next, you need parent buy-in.  And where's the boy-buy in?  The factors that are then listed are not as much factors as adult rationale for maintaining the adult status quo.  As long as the adults keep doing what they are doing, there's absolutely no incentive for the boys to change.

     

    Stosh:

     

    As you know, I don't disagree with your assessment.  In a perfect world, the boys would be doing those tasks.  I'd love the boys to take those roles.  However, I'm a believer in gradual change and picking and choosing how to best move the troop along the continum toward being more boy led.  

     

    I'd rather have the boys packing the patrol gear for campouts (as they do now) rather then the adults packing the gear for the troop (as it was before).  Getting that done is more important then having the boys (rather than the adults)  sending out an email about who btings a main course, salad or dessert for the Court of Honor.  I'd rather have an adult led meeting at the beginning of the campout and then let the boys lead for the rest of the weekend rather then having the adults leading every step of the way for the whole weekend.  I'd rather the boys come up with ideas for outings and do research myself regarding availability and cost (as we do now) than have the adult committee decide on the outings based on what they think the bpoys would like (as it used to be).  I'd rather the boys show leadership in developing the themes and plans for the meetings than show managerial competence in typing up and e-mailing the calendar.  I realize that in each of these areas there is a next step that the  boys can take and that will come in time.

     

    As for boy buy-in, they buy into the idea of being boy-led and are developing the skills needed to implement it.  The SM and I noted on a past campout how different it was from three years ago in that most of the boys who were there don't remember when we weren't as boy-led on outings.  Our troop sells itself as boy led.  The boys like that the weekly meetings are completely boy led.  The new crossovers are amazed that the adults camp away from the boys and that the adults dont tell them when to go to sleep, when to wake up, when to cook or when to do dishes, etc.

     

    What I"m trying to get across is that incremental change toward being more and more boy led is possible and that it is an alternative to announcing that the troop is all of a sudden boy led and having the adults suddenly step completely out of the picture.  I suspect that for many troops, a sudden change would collapse the troop and cause boy-led to fail -- giving a pursuasive argument to those that want an adult led troop.  Instead, my approach offers a list of victories for the boy-led philosophy which then allow the adult leaders to move the troop even further on the boy-led continum because it creates more buy-in among the adult leaders, the parents and provides confidence to the boys.  And yes, I said that the adult leaders move the troop to more boy-led.  That is the contraction -- having a strong boy led troop takes strong adult leaders.

     

    Much of this dicussion reminds me of the quip "it works in practice but doesn't work in theory...." (attributed to Former Fed Chairman Bernake).  What we are doing with out troop does work in practice, but fails in theory ("your not boy led because the adults still do things for the boys").

     

     

     

     

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  15. What are things you see that might be a red flag that adults might be over stepping?

     

    I think you may be looking at this from the wrong perspective.  The question really is what do you see that provides the boys with real opportunities for leadership.  

     

    The refreshments at our Courts of Honor are organized by parents (for one a parent purchases the refreshments, for one an e-mail is sent out by a parent assigning a catagory of dishes for pot-luck and for one the parents do the cooking on grill).  However, the Court of Honor is run by the SPL and the other scouts.  Where the SM and ASM used to talk about outings, the ranking leader on the trip talks about it (an adult used to do this).

     

    For outings, the PLC comes up with ideas for activities and I find places we can do that in my role as the ASM in charge of outings.  I make the reservations.  I send out the e-mail to scouts and parents and prepare the permission slip.  The SPL announces the activities at the meeting and collects the permission slips and checks (an adult used to do this).  On outings, we have a PLC meeting when we arrive on Friday night and discuss the plan for the weekend.  The adults to off to our own campsite and the boys are in charge for the rest of the weekend

     

    For PLC meetings, the SM and ASMs guide the boys as to what they need to do to select themes and guide the SPL as to what should be covered.  The boys run the meetings and the adults only chime in when asked.  The adults publish the calendar which has the monthly themes, the COH dates and the dates of the outings. Our weekly meetings are run by the SPL (for the beginning) and the PLs (for the breakouts) and one PL and his patrol for troop activitiy. 

     

    I could be and very likely am wrong, naive maybe, but I believe that while it might seem that much of this is a continuum, it really doesn't have to be.  It does seem to me that the transition could be much shorter, 

     

     

    The length of the transition would depend on a lot of factors.  You identified a large factor -- leadership buy-in.  You need the SM, CC and ASMs on the same page.  Next, you need parent buy-in.  One factor is the number of scouts in the troop and their ages.  Much easier for a smaller group of younger scouts.  A lot more difficult for an existing troop with a variety of ages and over 50 scouts.  In those circumstances, I can tell you that it is a transition and the goal is to keep moving along that continum.

  16. My favorite one was from somebody on this forum, sorry I can't give proper credit....

    but it was a story about scouts on a hike, and the SM was pulling up the rear, following the troop.....  and he had given the map and compass to the SPL.  I like the reactions I get from that story.

     

     

    That was my story.  I started when the boys were doing an orienteering course.  Told the adults that the boys were in front, adults in back.  Started doing it on backpacking treks.  I've trained the guys based on my favorite Baden Powell quote -- "the best way to avoid getting lost is to always know where you are."  The stop and look at the map at every landmark -- cross trail, stream, change in elevation (valley or top), service road, etc.  They locate where they are, figure out what the next landmark is and how far away it will be.  Once, I let the boys go about a mile past the trail we were supposed to take. They eventually noticed and asked why I didn't tell them.  My response -- I'm not in charge.  The refrain fo the next year was, "Don't trust Mr. Hedgehog when your hiking, he won't tell you if you make a wrong turn."  Let's just say that they paid a lot more attention to the map after that.

     

    This weekend, we were on a short hike from camp.  The scout leading the hike, stopped the group and told everyone that he thought we were going the wrong way since he hadn't seen a blaze since we took a side trail to get to a vantage point  and because the trail was going east when we should be going south.  We obviously on a trail and it was going straight just like the map showed.  I didn't have a map and really wasn't paying attention to the route they chose or where we were.  The scout suggested backtracking until we found a blaze.  His buddy agreed with him.  One of the other adults insisted that we were going the right direction.   I looked at the scout and said one word... "lead."  We backtracked, found the baze, went back to the intersection and confirmed that we had been going on the wrong trail.

     

    OK, full disclosure... the scout is my son and he has hiked / backpacked over 200 miles in the three years since he joined Boy Scouts.  His buddy has been along for alot of those miles, included the 50 miler last summer.  Knowing how well they had been trained, it was easy to trust them. 

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  17. Who is the top  leader of an army?  The political leader, the top general or the Colonel in charge of field operations, the Lieutenant in charge of the platoon or the Sargent-Major.  There are many different types of leadership.

     

    The SM and ASM lead as coaches to the SPL and PLs.  The SPL leads as mentor to the PLs and to coordinate the activites of the patrols at the troop level.  The ASPL acts as a mentor to the QM, Guide, etc.  The PLs lead their patrol.  The APLs assist the PLs.  Each has a different role and each requires different leadership skills.  

  18. My take on this situation would be from the perspective of ... "are you giving special considerations to your son and not to the others just because you are the den leader/CubMaster?"  Would you go over to some other scout's house, not from your den, for his birthday party sleepover?  After all, you are the CubMaster for the whole pack, not just DL for your son's den.

     

    I would always be a bit careful of using my position of leadership in the unit to favor my son, or any one other scout in the unit.  There's the parent hat we wear and the scouter hat we wear, not good to wear them both at the same time especially if it can be construed as "playing favorites" and having a pet scout, worse if it's your son.

     

    Stosh:

     

    Are you saying she can't throw a birthday party for her son if she doesnt do it for all the kids in the Den?

     

    How can I let my kid have friends over without it becoming an issue about 2 deep leadership and YP?

     

    I just dont want my kid not to have sleepovers because I am his den leader. Thoughts?

     

    As others have said, if you are doing something outside of scouts, it is outside of scouts.  The YPT guidelines (no one on one contact) and two-deep leadership are good ideas whether in scouting or otherwise.  Having other kids around avoids one-on-one and having your husband around is good in case you need to run out.

  19. The story is a tragedy and I suspect there is more to it than what was in the article.

     

    That being said, I think the emphasis of schools and society is misplaced.  The emphasis is on stopping bullying rather than empowering kids to deal with it.

     

    If we raise kids knowing they are loved and teach scouts that they are inherently valuable, nothing anyone else can say will change that.  There also is empowerment in knowing right from wrong -- knowing that the other kids are not acting in a Scoutlike manner makes you superior and stronger than them.  

     

    My son knows he is smart, handsome, dorky, geeky and an absolute goofball.  He is OK with that and knows we love him for who he is.  Whenever I've talked to him about this sort of stuff, his response is "I'm happy with who I am and that is all that matters."

     

    I also see the power of adult association.  I think of he guys in our Troop like a rag tag band of misfits and appreciate the uniqueness of each of them.  I"m pretty sure that most of them know that "Mr. Hedgehog thinks I"m alright."

     

    There is a very quiet scout in our troop.  A week after working with a group (including him) on the camping merit badge, I stoped him and told him that I was glad he was part of the group because we needed someone who really knows his stuff.  I could tell that he wasn't used to people telling him he was the best at something.

     

    There is another kid who is a real pain sometimes.  He is the troop clown.  I often have to reel him in and focus him.  I know that he is a smart kid and a good kid and remind him of that.  I think the fact that I expect a lot from him makes him expect more from himself.

     

    How about the 12 year old kid that was on the verge of tears when I arrived at summer camp on Wednesday?  A quick talk, acouple of blister pads and some creative problem sovling regarding his tub of clothes that got drenched in a rain storm because the lid was left off, he was like a new kid.

     

    There is an amazing power to the phrase "I believe in you."  

     

    At the end of our 50 mile backpacking trek this summer, I said something like this to the guys "We just did something amazingly difficult.  At some point each of us hit a wall -- emotionally, physically or psychologically.  But we kept going.  Remember this whenever life gets difficult and think, 'I've made it through a lot worse.'  Remember this whenever you think a task is impossible, that doing the impossible begins with taking the first step."  

     
    My parents raised me with the saying, "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again."  There have been a lot of times in my life where I've been challenged to my core.  I'm sure from the outside it looks like I have had a perfect life, but I can't count the number of times I've listened to Peter Gabriel's "Don't Give Up" to strengthen myself against desperation.  
     
    Over Christmas, we gave our son a wooden plaque with a quote from Mary Anne Radmacher that says “Courage does not always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, 'I will try again tomorrow.† Too true.
  20. Interesting discussion.  The things I think lead to our Troop's high retention rate are:

     

    1.  Quality Outdoor Program.  We have had great campouts in April, May and June that the new guys attend.  We try to schedule 12 outings a year.  Recent outings (since the last group of cross overs)  included a shakedown backpacking hike, a campout the older guys cycled 25 miles to, a campout with a hike around 20 waterfalls, a three-day canoing and backpacking trek, summer camp, a 50 mile backpacking trek, sea kayaking, a camporee, an 18 mile backpacking trek and a camping trip to Washington D.C.

     

    2.  Summer Camp. - If they go to camp, the will stay.

     

    3.  Managing Adult and Scout Expectations - We sell ourselves as being boy-led and the scouts and parents buy into that.  No surprises.  I spend a lot of time preaching the benefits of boy-led and indoctrinating any adults who hang around meetings or who want to come on campouts with us.

     

    I think most of our losses are guys who's heart really wasn't into scouting, but just crossed over with the rest of their den.  I can quickly predict who will drop.  They typically don't like camping, they typically are very dependent on their parents and they typically don't join in their patrols.

     

    We have adult assigned mixed age patrols (I know, I know -- that is another topic for the future).  The new scouts are assigned to a patrol, typically with other new scouts (like 3 per patrol).  They new guys seem to like being part of a group with older kids and our older guys are really good at including the crossovers and mentoring them.

     

    We don't push FCFY.  That being said, the boys get 75% of the requirements done for FC at summer camp.  We range about a third in 18 months, another third in 24 months and the rest within the next year.

     

     

  21. I think we're about the same rate of loss after one year from former cubs vs. non-cubs. The difference? With former cubs, it's usually the parent's decision over the boy's objection. With non-cubs, it's usually the boy's decision over the parent's objection.

     

    Interesting.  I think our loss rate is around 10% (1 in 10).  If they go on a campout before the summer after crossing over, they stay.  If they don't camp with us in the first three months (April, May and June) or go to summer camp, there is a 50% chance they drop out.

    • Upvote 1
  22. hedgehog: Your son had you as his MBC for THREE Eagle required merit badges? That what be questioned at our district EBOR.

     

    Interesting.  I'm curious what the basis is for question would be.

     

    The Guide to Advancement places the decision on the number of merit badges earned from a particular counselor on the SM.  

     

    7.01.01 - The National Council does not place a limit on the number of merit badges a youth may earn from one counselor. However, in situations where a Scout is earning a large number of badges from just one counselor, the unit leader is permitted to place a limit on the number of merit badges that may be earned from one counselor, as long as the same limit applies to all Scouts in the unit. Approved counselors may work with and pass any member, including their own son, ward, or relative. Nevertheless, we often teach young people the importance of broadening horizons. Scouts meeting with counselors beyond their families and beyond even their own units are doing that. They will benefit from the perspectives of many “teachers†and will learn more as a result. They should be encouraged to reach out. 

     

     

     

    Our SM's rule is you can't just be a counselor for your own kid, you have to do it for everyone in the Troop and you are encouraged to do it for other troops in the District.  By the time my son goes up for Eagle, I will have probably counseled 30 scouts in Cooking, 15 scouts in Camping and 20 scouts in Family Life.  If they don't question it for the other guys that have all three of those badges from me as a counselor, they can't question it for my son.

     

    If there is a concern about whether he met the requirements, he will be the first to tell them that I didn't cut him any breaks -- actually, he would probably throw me under the bus for holding him to a higher standard of knowledge. For Camping, by the time he has an EBOR, he will have camped over 150 nights and hiked over 400 miles and organized several camping and backpacking trips.  For Cooking, he has cooked for his patrol twice (including once where he grilled steaks) since completing the badge and is now working with the younger scouts in his patrol as they plan and cook menus for the T-1 requirements (because, as he put it, "I'm tired of the adults eating so much better than the scouts").  I suspect that he will be teaching the Camping and Cooking skills to the younger scouts as part of the MBs in the future and probably doing presentations on backpacking and cooking for the Counci's University of Scouting.  For Family Life, who better to learn it from than your Dad?

     

    If it is a concern about lack of a variety of adult interaction, that is more of an issue with my role as ASM and the likelihood that I'll step into the SM role in the future.  Nonetheless, a week at NYLT this summer, the possibility of being a CIT in training at camp the next couple of summers, doing Jambo '17, doing at least one High Adventure program and working with the other adults in our troop (and his Eagle Advisor) should address those concerns.

  23. I'll admit that my involvement in the Troop is because of my son.  I want him to learn independence and to learn to be at home in the outdoors.  OK, there also is a bit of reliving my childhood by going and playing in the woods one weekend a month. :D

     

    I've learned new skills (backpacking), relearned old skills (Camping and Hiking) and adapted other skills (gourmet cooking to camp Cooking).  I've dusted off what I learned in college (Citizenship in the Nation and World), applied what I've learned in real life (Personal Management and Family Life).  I've been the MBC for my son in a lot of those (Backpacking, Camping, Cooking and Family Life) but have been the MBC at least 50 other times for scouts in our troop and a neighboring troop.  I guess to me that is being "helpful."  On outings, I coach all the boys, including my son, on how to lead.

     

    That being said, I still do things with my son.  We've done backpacking treks with just the two of us.  My son, his mom and I have camped out together everywhere from the Poconos to a beach in St. John.  We've taken vacations where we have done day hikes from 2 to 13 miles, climed mountains, gone kayaking, done confidence courses, etc.  We have a bunch of model rockets we are going to build and launch.  We got throwing knives and tomahawks and are learning how to throw them (well, throwing them is easy, hitting the target is hard).  

     

    If you have a talent or skill, I think you should share it.  If you want to spend time with your son, you can do that too.

    • Upvote 2
  24. Does presenting rank advancement patches and merit badge patches at a COH encourage advancement?  Maybe, but not necessarily in a good way.  I've seen a couple of parents exchange looks which if I was to guess mean "why didn't you advance?"  

     

    I think our COH's generate excitement for our outdoor program.  The SPL and ASPL talk about what we did over the last couple of months, the kids that were there remember how much fun they had and the ones that missed it wonder if they should have gone.  

     

    However, I did notice that a bunch of kids and adults paid attention when my son received his National Outdoor Award for Camping and when our advancement chair explained about the award.  Between that and talking about the camping merit badge, the boys are now interested in how many nights they have camped and how many miles they have hiked.

  25. "We've got this Mr. Hedgehog" - SPL, frequently

    "It was AWESOME" - New crossover after his mom asked him about his first campout

    "IT'S MR. HEDGEHOG!!!" - Several senior scouts screaming with joy at my arrival at summer camp midweek

    "That was the longest hike I've ever done" - A first year after six miles

    "I can't believe I made it." - A 12 year old after backpacking 50 miles

    "Leadership is a lot of work" - My son after his first campout as APL

    "We need to work together more as patrols." - Several boys during stop, start and continue after our last campout

    • Upvote 1
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