DuctTape

4 hours ago, yknot said:

Seems like this could be solved by having the SM and ASMs invite DLs on an annual adult one night camp out for Intro to Troop fun. You don't need WB for that or First Class either. Rather than a whole weekend of training, a late Sat afternoon, dinner, and early Sunday a.m. scoot in time for church would work for a lot of schedules especially if local. 

A one night camping trip is not nearly enough. I had an ASM (who had a youth scouting experience) struggle for two years going on trips, and having late night conversations before he "finally got it." (his words).

3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

If the issue is lack of basic leadership training, then lets augment Wood Badge to cover that.  I don't think creating more obstacles to attending is going to resolve that issue.  That, and I think you'll find that youth signing off adults is inherently not practical.  

I'm all for focusing on youth leadership, but I don't think Wood Badge is the place for that.  Put that in an advanced Scoutmaster course.

I thought woodbadge was (not currently) an advanced scoutmaster course? Is that not the point many are trying to make? The problem I see is is that ALL the trainings are Intro level and there is nothing offered which is advanced. Pre-requisites are not obstacles, they are an acknowledgement that skills and knowledge increase on a continuum. Unfortunately this idea has spread throughout all of BSA even for the scouts. This is what created and perpetuates the one and done issue.

26 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

No, it was exclusionary because they only wanted experienced scouters who were going to continue working with scouts. Why waist time teach advanced skills to someone going to leave scouting. Nothing sinister or self-serving. 

I have a feeling this royalty idea was pushed by jealous non WB scouters. Some folks don't want to work for the stature that makes them like themselves better. Oh of course there are always bad actors and some WoodBadgers probably pushed his stature too hard. But, I never met one like that from the old course in our area.

Barry

This is how I understood it, and is consistent with what I witnessed. I never did woodbadge myself (either old, new, or newest version).

It seems that the newest is a basic intro course as opposed to the advanced course of old. What is interesting is I see the newest WBers touting it as something special, and thus "they" are special more than the oldest version WBers who truly were something special.

10 minutes ago, RichardB said:

Perhaps one of you could point out where it enables an CO to do events for others in the name of scouting on behalf of the local council or BSA?   I don't think you are going to find that in there.   

Because that is not what is being discussed. COs are doing events themselves at the same location.

2 hours ago, SSScout said:

All the more reason to emphasize IOLS, I guess.  

Anyone want a bucket of various axes and hatchets? 

Whatcha got for sale in that there bucket?

6 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

Is there anyone on this board that has any any insight as to how or why the NY council was able to not sell?

I do not have any insider information, but many councils in NY whose camps were struggling financially sold an easement to the State which provided a significant influx of cash in exchange for (limited) public access. A quick search shows the state does hold a public easement on the Pouch property, but I did not look to see when it was acquired.

2 hours ago, FaithfulScouter said:

In my experience, the many pleas for volunteers in the Troop went unanswered.  The long term Unit Commissioner had been absent, and didn't see any possible areas of concern because the Scoutmaster was 'one of my guys'.  In reality, the Unit was a mess.  Purportedly 'boy run' but the limited number of adults did everything.  The patrols and PLC were in name only.  And training?  What training?  Why bother when we've been doing it like this 'for years'?  

Who has the luxury of succession planning when you can barely keep a Unit above water?  So of course you give adults guilt and ultimatums to keep the Unit chartered.  And that's how you wind up with inappropriate candidates for adult leaders because no one else would step up...

Rarely people step up. Pleas for volunteers being ignored is common in most organizations and systems. Recruiting adults (and scouts) effectively requires personal invitations. All recruitment is Cheap, Easy, Effective... choose only 2.

Yes, delegation is key. So is ongoing mentoring/training of ASMs so that they are not trying to figure ot all out on their own. In another thread I wrote about having ASMs sit in on SM conferences to learn how to do them well. Along with this mentoring, the SM should view his ASMs as his patrol. He should be focused on building up the ASMs much like the PL builds up his patrol mates. I would also encourage the SM to invite a PL (at appropriate times) to sit in and listen to how the SM runs his SM/ASM meetings. This modeling of how to run a productive meeting will help the PL and also demonstrate some engagement strategies. Of course, a follow up discussion with the PL about what he observed and learned.

5 hours ago, yknot said:

Ugh. None that doesn't involve adult intervention, which is why I asked about guard rails when trying to be youth led. To some degree I think the traditional scout leadership system rewards the more articulate, self motivated, Type A scouts. The standard answer you will often get is more adult training in the patrol method is needed in order to properly train SPLs and Troop Guides, but in my neck of the woods there are so many disconnects in that process that the scouts are simply gone. If you are seeing it I do think it's worth a discussion with your SM to try and get him to have a discussion with the SPL and follow that whole chain of command back down. Another option is to have a side bar discussion with some of the Type B scouts about how they can try to be more assertive. Maybe others here have better advice. I did recommend a book here in another thread that really opened my eyes to the problems these more reserved scouts face and about how their leadership value is often completely overlooked, particularly in scouting: Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking by Susan Cain. 

You have hinted at the main role of the SM/ASM as the solution. SM conferences. For most, these are something done at the end of a rank. They are much more important. SMs should be conferencing with the scouts continuosly. This should almost always be in the form of questioning (Socratic Method) to help the scouts learn and grow. Using your example of type A scouts... The  situation should not go on until the Bs leave. Nor should the SM fix it, or attempt to intervene with a large group "talk". The SM needs to conference with the scouts individually (within YPT) to help the scouts learn and grow. The conferences will be different for each kid. Each should conclude with some action step the scout will attempt. Follow-up conferences in this type of situation is necessary to happen sooner than later.

With your food spoilage scenario, the SM should conference with the PL before the campout (best is soon after menu is planned) to go over logistics. Again using questioning. "Jimmy, I see you are planning on having bbq chicken. Sounds delish? Does your cook for that meal have much experience cooking chicken?" This begins a dialogue. There should also be a follow up conference before the campout to alleviate any concerns of the SM. And another after the campout to go over the trip as a whole. 

If that sounds like a ton of conferences, it is. That is why BP suggested small troops to accomplish them all. 

SM conferences are the bread&butter of the ongoing training via adult association with the scouts. As was mentioned earlier, it is an art. Training of ASMs happens via sitting in (listening/observing only) on the SM have these conferences and then dialogue between SM and ASM to discuss it. Also ASMs gain experience by conducting conferences (with SM listening/observing only), again with follow up dialogue.

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

 

Hence the counsel of my first Sm: "No one ever died of a burned flapjack."  

 

 

 

The saying in our neck of the woods was, "no scout ever died of starvation on a weekend camping trip".

I have often said (only semi-jokingly) that the demise of kids interpersonal and conflict resolution skills was organized sports. Organized sports have pushed down to the youngest ages and subsumed all sportsplay activities. Prior kids would play kickball, or tag or or street hockey in their neighborhood. They made up games too. When the inevitable conflict, you're out/safe, arose there was no adult making the call and the kids had to figure out a resolution. The most common was "do over". Kids didn't just make this up, they learned that from the older kid who learned from other older kids years before. 

In organized sports, the adults manage the teams, plan the games, are the umpires/refs managing the game, eliminating kid-kid conflict. The kids just play the game without learning any real life skills. The neighborhood kids playing the games developed a neighborhood culture, invented games, created/re-created teams, solved problems, resolved conflicts... all without adult interference. I opine, adults organizing the kids into "little league for 4 year olds"  are the soul-crusher of kids sportsplay activities and thus deny kids the opportunity to learn, grow, resolve. 

This is also why kids and adults are having an even more difficult time with youth-led and patrol method. The kids do not have the neighborhood sportsplay experiences, and the adults think they must organize and solve everything. This is a (the) problem and the solution is self-evident. Give the kids more opportunity to do the things which require them to make decisions, interact, solve, etc... without having adults meddle. In the scouting world this can result in "lord of the flies" which is ok at first. Immediately after the SM/ASM uses that as an opportunity to train the scout leaders (PLs). Adults training scouts should be following the patrol structure. PLs then train APLs and their patrol. The SM should NOT intervene with a patrol (immediate safety concern notwithstanding) but allow the patrol to operate under the leadership of the PL. After, and ongoing the SM should be interacting with the PL to help him/her learn and grow. A SPL and/or troop guide will likely emerge after a time to alleviate some of the SM tutelage of the PLs. 

5 hours ago, yknot said:

There are plenty of youth programs that are fun for youth without youth running the program and that are very popular and youth can't wait to participate in them. Sports, robotics, 4-H, etc., etc. There is nothing magical about youth led. In scouting, I think it helps make a sometimes tedious program more enjoyable for youth when we let the youth have more free rein and they truly do learn something if they are able to try to figure out the process themselves. However, the whole advancement system is an adult originated structure. Kids didn't come up with that. When you let them do what they want within that structure, scouting youth have a lot more fun, but it's not like they don't have fun in other organizations or activities that are not as kid led. I just think kids have fun when they are camping and hiking and outdoors. That's the fun. 

 

True. Other adult led programs are fun for kids. But there IS something magical about youth-led. That is it directly leads to the mission of Scouting. Without it, adults make the (majority of) decisions. Scouts cannot learn to make good decisions without having the opportunity to make any decisions.  Scouting as youth-led and via the patrol method is the structure which allows scouts to make decisions (including bad ones) and learn from them all while having fun.  

Having scouters with youth scouting experience is not always better than zero experience. This is especially true for anyone who was a scout in the last 50 years. I have had more issues with adults who were scouts in troops who had no real patrol method, or scout-led structure. To train these adults means to begin with having them un-learn all the bad habits of their experience. It takes way longer. Those with zero experience are a blank slate to be trained. Both require a willingness to learn, but at least the latter have nothing to undo first.

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I would bet a lot of us have attempted to make things better by reaching out, but have had no success. I stumbled across this forum after years of calling and emailing Council and National and having numerous conversations to no effect. The coffee's always been out in our unit, but generally they don't really want to hear from you unless it's related to FOS or membership. 
 

Years ago I went to our UC (who knows me well) and let him know I was willing to help at the district and council level for training. He was ecstatic I was willing to lend my expertise so he sent it up the chain. About 6 months later I approached him again and said I have not heard anything. He told me he sent my info up the chain and was surprised no one got back to me as they are always looking for trainers. Another 6 months go by... nothing. When I saw our UC again I told him I only volunteer twice and then I stop. If they don't want me, I am happy to volunteer where I am appreciated. A week later the district training chair contacted me and asked if I would help with IOLS. One would think that an organization run mostly by volunteers and predicated on training would jump at the chance to have more people to help with training but apparently that wasn't the case. From talking to others, this is not isolated to our district and council but is rather widespread. 

yes.

Welcome.

You mentioned being a leader. What is your specific position?

Interesting that the standards apply to all camps with   a few carve out exceptions most notably The National Jamboree. The attempt to state the Jambo is subject to more stringent standards is laughable. If that were the case, no need to exclude it.

good ideas. I'd start with some of the old info from the 1950s Patrol Leader Handbook. Also, could it be a communication tool for Patrols Leaders around the country to share ideas and commiserate. 

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

Extended explanations of the claim of "systemic" racism by the proponents and publicists of that claim suggest to me that those proponents and publicists are using "systemic" instead of de facto or, at the least, "really bad."   

I lived through systemic racism - segregation of public institutions by explicit rule of law; literacy tests designed to bar Black and Hispanic voters; concentration camps; maps on the walls of bank offices with areas  drawn in red lines that were barred to loans to Black persons wishing to buy a home  (an early  New Deal FHA program), and racial immigration quotas favoring  "Whites."   Registering Black voters could - and did - result in violent death while local law enforcement systematically saw nothing and did nothing.

I was a voter when President Johnson,  Mike Mansfield, Everett Dirksen and the Republicans hammered the Civil Rights Act past the filibuster of Harry Byrd, former Grand Cyclops of the West Virginia KKK,  and the Southern Democrats.  Then came the battle to pass the Voting Rights Act (1965) and to  make red-lining a federal crime (1968).

So when I read and hear that "nothing has changed," I recognize ignorance for what it is.  And what contempt that ignorance, probably unintentionally, shows for decades of effort and courage by others, many killed in the process..

The tendency of the self-imagined "superior" types to regard themselves as owed better treatment and a status above the law is apparently part of the human condition.   Oligarchy, behind whatever label, seems a very common reality in "republic," "democracy" and "socialism."  The law is in the way?   Game the system, hide the crimes, or simply openly Ignore the law.

 

 

Things have changed in many ways, especially what is legal on the books. What is legal and what is part of the system are two different things.  While no longer legal, much has not changed in the system. As just a singular example he consequences of red-lining are still a reality in many places. Entire communities exist as a result of said red-lining and in a lot of cases are unwelcoming to say the least of "others" moving into the neighborhoods. The police still treat minorities in these neighborhoods differently. At the minimum is the assumption they must be from somewhere else and therefore suspect. This is just a simplistic example. While this is a far cry from the lynchings of the past, much of the country still has a long long way to go. While I disagree with the younger generation stating "nothing has changed" I also disagree with the older generation stating words to the effect, "we fixed it years ago, so racism is not systemic". The reality is in middle.

6 hours ago, Nathan1001001 said:

@DuctTape What do you think?

My main concern is that it seems (and I could be misunderstanding your vision) is that the app is an attempt to be a digital mB counselor. My concern is that scouts is already too hyperfocused on advancement to the point it has become the de facto aim in many places. The app, as I see it, would make the problem worse by decreasing time spent with a mB counselor denying the scout the opportunity to grow via the adult association method. 

With any idea presented in scouts I ask myself "Will this help or hinder us in achieving the aims of scouting?"

4 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

This isn't directed at Eagledad or DuctTape, but just a general comment. As Skurka points out, just because your bear bags were safe in the morning does not mean your hang was a good one.  Unless a bear actually attempts to get the bags, you don't know.

True. I have seen some terrible hangs.

My ursack has been attacked, still has the teeth marks. 

When hanging with our 2-tree method, we are significantly higher and farther than the recommended.

Skurka when sleeping with his food also hasn't had that method tested by his own metric.

In the Quetico (Canadian side of BWCA) a good single tree is also hard to come by. We use a 2-tree method which does not require that "one perfect branch". Using two trees allows one to attach a 'biner to the center of a rope between the two trees, then hoist to that center well away from branches, trunks etc...

Like all outdoors skills, one needs to know how to deal with changing conditions. What works in one area might not work in another.

51 minutes ago, Nathan1001001 said:

Thanks for the welcome

 

Hm it just seems that here: https://www.scouting.org/programs/scouts-bsa/advancement-and-awards/merit-badges/ the way you should complete merit badges are to pick a merit badge, find the counselor, and they are there to help if needed and if you don't need any specific help just to start working on the requirements. Says that when you are ready you should then call the counselor and discuss it with them and get it signed off (In my opinion, this seems very similar to what I was saying). From what I understand, counselors are another resource that you can use for help and the app could go along side what BSA recommends and be another resource for scouts. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

I don't think it says that at all. Says nothing about" they are there to help if needed".  In fact it says to call the mB first. You may be misinterpreting the written process to coincide with your current thinking.

7 minutes ago, Nathan1001001 said:

Unfortunately my troop does not do this and maybe if they did, I would not have felt the need to come up with this idea. I think it honestly might just depend on the troop. Mine and others might not have this kind of process but others might.

Perhaps a good place to start would be to implement a better process?

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

59 minutes ago, Nathan1001001 said:

I think there might be some slight confusion on the purpose and goal of the app so I can try to explain in more detail what one of the guides could look like. When Scouts sign in, they will choose what they are working on and see a guide that they can follow which will provide more detail of what is expected. For example... in the emergency preparedness merit badge, you must describe how to prevent, protect, mitigate, respond, and recover to a list of scenarios. Rather than directly stating what the answer to each of these are, we can describe what each of the terms (prevent, protect, mitigate, etc.) mean and set the scene: You are going on a road trip from point a to point b, you must cross a windy one-way road that goes up a high mountain, maybe include some pictures or a video of what exactly is happening and hint at any emergencies that could occur. What are things you should do to prevent an incident? The scout can come up with their ideas such as looking at the forecast beforehand, plan to not go during the coldest part of the year, etc. and then there could be a prompt saying something like, now go discuss this with your leader. The idea is not to tell the scouts the answers to any of these scenarios, but to create a better way where they think through the problems and come up with their own ways. It will keep the Scout-Adult relationship and also provide instances where if an older Scout would like, to assist in these ideas. 

As of right now, I do not see the scout book or merit badge pamphlets providing anything like this and I can certainly see how this can benefit troops and the scouts.

Let me know

You are correct the pamphlet doesn't have these. That is because those should be part of the mB counselor meetings (yes plural) with the scout. Remember they are a mB "Counselor" not a mB "signeroffer". A mB Counselor should be counseling the scout in these matters with the aims in mind.