DuctTape

Total cost is on a continuum. I have seen high quality active outdoor troops which were relatively  inexpensive. I have seen low quality less active troops be more expensive. And everthing in between. A quality program is not synonymous with expensive.

Quality, Easy, Cheap. pick two.

A thrifty troop fills the $ gap with more work/effort. 

48 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

When the Scout admits it. Your example of a Scout admitting they didn't read the requirements is a pretty poor judge if they did them or not. If swimming merit badge at camp covers certain requirements each day, the counselor tracks completion, and when done, done. There isn't a requirement for the Scout to read the requirements, just do them.  And it should be rare. Rare. Not a regular occurrence. It sounds like for your unit, this was a regular occurrence. Your sense of righteousness seems strong. 

Again "Just as we avoid penalizing Scouts for the mistakes of adults, it should be a rare occurrence that a unit leader finds the need to question whether merit badges have been earned." This isn't to be done with each badge with each scout. That doesn't seem how you describe your process. 

Sadly, it is more common than one might think at summer camps. And some camps are significantly worse than others. Part of the problem is the "counselors" are other scouts, albeit a few years older. This should not be allowed. Even if if was an adult who officially signed the card. The adult is supposed to have tested each scout on the requirements, not rely on a 15 year old CIT who "led a class". The merita badge mill summer camps are a stain on the entire process. Sadly BSA doesn't just turn a blind eye, it appears they actively encourage it. 

I am not that worried about a DBA, or Trademark name. I am also not concerned about co-ed troops. I understand the concerns that some have expressed. However, if the Patrol Method and Scout-Led is done correctly, I see those as the mitigating factor for all the concerns.

For example, one concern was that some boys want to be separate from the girls; to do their own thing without having to worry about primping etc... Then the Patrol Method and Scout Led is the solution. In a Scout Led, Patrol Method troop, the scouts choose their own patrols so these boys can choose to be all together as an all -boy patrol and they can decide on their own adventures. There is no requirement that this patrrol do the same campout, event, adventures as the other patrols which may be all-girl, or co-ed. They do not even have to travel to the same forest for their campout. This has been true even before the discussion about girls. There were issues with scouts not wanting to be with other scouts in their patrol or did not want to go on the same camporee for the 5th time. The solution is and has always been, use the Patrol Method and have a Scout -Led troop. Issues arise due to adult interference. The adult objection I have heard over the decades is, they have to go to the same event as the other patrols because we do not have enough adults to drive to separate events. This is hogwash IMO, and here is why. In order to transport each patrol of say 6 scouts, this will require two vehicles, thus two adults. Each patrol has their own independent transportation and 2-deep leadership by default.

So, back to my original comment. I am not concerned if the adults will get out of the way of the patrol method and eliminate practices and decisions which erode the Scout Led and Patrol Method of their troop.

The Scoutmaster's "Minute" is not just for a Troop Meeting Closing, it is a guiding principle. 😉

6 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Scoutmaster attended wood badge maybe 10 years ago. 

Perhaps she needs a refresher course.

5 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Her argument is that is 3x the work. An ASM tried to explain to her that this is the process. This is how things get done. Cooking for 11 isn’t easy,  or how it should be done. 

 Rephrase it as 3x the opportunities for scout growth. Scouting isn't "work". By her doing one big patrol she is denying scouts opportunities. 

Growth in individual scouts. Seeing a new scout who can barely tie their own shoes develop into a patrol leader who plans, and leads their patrol on an overnight camping trip with adults only as drivers and required YPT.  And all the other iterations of similar growth.

The article stated the restriction on fundraising was lifted for a short period of time late 23-early 24, but it doesn't say when these kids were doing their fundraiser and whether it fell within that window. I would think this detail would be relevant. 

9 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

That might be how they want it, but that isn’t ok. 

What is not ok? It aapears the GTA is not being violated. The scout is not being re-tested on requirements. The PLC is just initialing in the handbook that they provided the instruction and the scout is ready to be tested by the ASM/SM in accordance with the GTA.

22 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

- What best practices can you share?  Planning! Planning! Planning!  And let the PLC decide what they want to do.  Adults should zip it.  You are there for health and safety 😜 

- What defines a backpacking troop, anyway?  Up to you!  A Troop "ought" to be camping every month (12 times a year.)  JTE Gold level asks you to have 9 short term and 1 long term camp (so 10 times).  I would define a "backpacking troop" as one that does at least half its outings as backpacking... so 5 or 6 times a year. 

- How does your troop prepare recent crossovers and other young/small/inexperienced Scouts for backpacking?  We split up and have about 4 patrol outings per year in the troop program,  Older Scouts are more likely to choose backpacking.  We do 15-20 milers.  We also shoot for one long term backpacking trip per year... 5 days, 4 nights, 50-miler.  We do not encourage young/small/inexperienced to do backpacking.  But neither do we discourage.  It's simply a question of weight ratios! (nod to Monty Python) Scouts need to bring between 25-35 pounds of gear/food/water, depending on length of trip and weather conditions.  Beginners should stay about 25% of their weight.  So, a Scout ought to be around 100 pounds before they start backpacking.  Even then, other Scouts usually wind up carrying some of their gear, or at least much of their share of patrol gear.  So, we do some training outings, day only.  Show up in the morning for a gear shakedown, then carry a full pack for a day hike.  If a Scout has issues, maybe he needs to wait before going backpacking.  Don't set them up to be miserable. Scouts will try to take on much more than they can handle, so let them learn before throwing them in the back woods.   

How many backpacking trips does your troop typically do each year (and what do you do the rest of the year)? 3, with one long term trip, IF that is what the PLC (or Patrol) has decided to do.  Rest of the year, we do whatever the PLC has picked for program in their Annual Planning Conference.  THIS IS THE WAY!

If you converted your troop to backpacking, what challenges did you have to overcome?  Our PLC did not "convert", but they did add a great deal more backpacking over the last four years.  Gear (for Patrols) has been the issue.

In your experience, how does backpacking support the patrol method?  Every person for himself is not Scouting.  You may have a great backpacking trip, but if you are not using the Patrol Method, you are not Scouting.  Doing it by Patrols is more difficult... Patrol plans their budget and menu, shops for the food.  Meets ahead of time to divide and pre-package, where needed.  Two white gas stoves per patrol.  One tent per two Scouts,.  Bear bags or bear canisters, depending on destination requirements.  Patrol first aid kit.  One water filter and tablets as a back up... we boil all water.  Simply put, it is the only way to be sure you kill everything.  (this one will draw fire....) https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/pdf/drinking/Backcountry_Water_Treatment-508.pdf

Lots more to add... but I gotta do some chores!

@InquisitiveScouterfor National Commissioner! 

21 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

We have a First Class or above (hence often the PL or Instructor) sign off the left-hand column, and then an ASM the right-hand column. The Scouts don't sign off SMC or BOR, but the Scout seeking to advance does have to answer all the other things like Scout Spirit to the signing Scout's satisfaction.

This is a neat idea. The left hand column initials by the PL as an indicator that the scout is ready to be be tested by the ASM (the person authorized to do sign-offs). I can see the scout having an increased motivation to ask to be tested and have confidence in their success. This also keeps the older scouts sharp, and provides leadership and peer mentorship.

Even if the PLC decides (with authorization by the SM) to have SPL or PL do official testing and sign-offs, I really like the idea of another older scout  put their initials on the left side as an indicator of "readiness to be tested". For example, the PL might become authorized to sign-off on requirements and the APL helps the scouts be ready and uses their initials on the left to communicate said readiness.

One major drawback to text based communication is the lack of tone and body language which provides A LOT of information.

There have been studies that showed most people will read positive text as neutral, and neutral text as negative.

This bias towards the less positive is likely from a place of safety/defense inherent to the evolution of our species.

I often listen to people discuss emails from others and it is amazing how much "tone" and malice is projected onto the writer.

Understanding this, I know I must consciously ADD +++ in my reading of other's text in absence of other specific evidence to the contrary. 

There are no restrictions on the number of positions one person may hold as long as the individual serves in only one position per unit with the exception of the chartered organization representative (CR), who is the only individual that can be registered in more than one position within the same unit. The CR may also serve in a multiple capacity as the committee chair (CC) or as a member of the committee (MC, NM, or PT) within that unit.

From: Registration Guidebook rev 2019 (page 14)

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Registration-Guidebook.pdf

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I could support the scout's signing off on scout spirit, active in your troop and serve actively.  Also, you can minimize BORs.  Just because it says three adult committee members doesn't mean it needs to be 30+ minutes.  It could be five minutes of three committee members.  ... The one I would strongly suggest never to dilute is the scoutmaster conference.  The scoutmaster needs to know the scouts and hear what they say.  Period.  

I agree with Fred and the others. My only additions would be:

1. Start slow, give the PLC authority for signing off on one of those non-skill based requirements, and perhaps only for tenderfoot rank. Then build from there. 

2.  the SM should meet with the PLC before implementation to generate protocols, establish norms and expectations.

3. (initially) after every sign-off the SM discuss the process, etc... with the PLC to ensure protocols etc are being met and adhered to. This can diminish in regularity after the SM is confident in the PLC with their new authority.

As an aside---

4. SM conferences should occur regularly with scouts not just "as the final requirement". I would say the SM should conference with each scout at least every 4 months (that might not even be enough). The SM conference is a major aspect of the Adult Association Method within the troop. These conferences can be invaluable for the youth development and for the SM to understand the perspectives of each scout re: troop, patrol, and their individual life. Imagine if one looks at SM conferences also as a way for the SM to improve. Powerful!

You are correct that the Requirement as written is unambiguous. The activities in 9b must be done on the trips in 9a.

As far as being held to the mercy of the troop, I would say the Scouts should plan the outings as a patrol not the troop. The scout can and should motivate the patrol to do preferred activities with their patrol. If the patrol members want different things, then perhaps the makeup of the patrols is an issue. This is separate from the mB requirement question.

And welcome to the virtual campfire!

11 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Bring back a Bird Study as Eagle required!  Or make it one of a group... Bird/Mammal/Insect/Reptile and Amphibian/Fish and Wildlife Mgmt/Forestry/etc etc etc

Drop Cit in Society ASAP...

For how long have we here at Scouter.com advocated for required mBs to be in groups/categories of which the scout could choose?

When an organization's focus is on Quantity; Quality suffers.

When the focus is on Quality; Quantity will also improve. 

Just summarizing our esteemed colleagues' aforementioned experiences.

I do not see how it takes so long to re-Charter. IMO there should not be an annual Re-Charter. 

Chartering is a completely separate issue from individual memberships.. The Chartering Agreement between the Council and the CO does not need to be redone annually. The Agreeement can and should remain in force until one (or both) parties agree to sever the relationship. Any changes to personnel do not require a change in the Chartering Agreement.  Name/title changes can be a separate document and can be modified whenever changes are necessary. 

As individuals join a Unit either as Scouts or Adult Scouters, their paperwork is submitted to Council for processing. This process should be expedititious for Scouts and the only time issue for Scouters is a background check. If one is on file, then no time needed. 

The entire system is antiquated, and it is ridiculous how long it seems to process . I bet 3 or 4 of us here could revamp the entire system in a single day. The way i see it, there are 3 separate parts (and before it is suggested that the Annual Re-Charter does all of these, IMO that is the problem.)

1. Chartering Agreement. The contract between Council and CO. This Agreement is done once and signed by the Council and IH on the date of Charter. The Charter continues to exist until one or both parties sever. Re-Charters are reserved for the rare occurence of a former Charter is being re instated.

2. Leadership Documents. Document which details names of IH, COR, SM, etc... this is updated continuously as changes are made not saved for an annual event.

3. Individual Membership Documents. These would include Application for joining. Change in Status/Unit form, etc... These must be processed immediately. For Scouts, membership should be considered conferred when the Unit signs the paperwork. For Adults, the only delay is for background check validation. 

I have rambled enough.

Grandma Gatewood is legendary!

Whatever system (digital or otherwise), counsel the scouts to reply to comms. If someone does not reply, then the PL (or whomever sent the comm) must then seek that person out. Lack of communication is based on the  premise, "I sent it out via..." as the only step.

Instruct them how to communicate effectively.

Eg.

From: Patrol Leader

"At our next Patrol meeting we will be doing a gear inspection for the upcoming campout. Even if you are not going, please bring your pack with gear. If you are in need of anything please let me or the APL know. Reply to this message, 'YES' to let me know you understand. If I do not hear back from you by (insert time/date) I will be calling you directly."

50 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Yes, but how times have changed. Today, canvas and sewing would likely be replaced with poly (blue) tarp and duct tape and shower curtain poncho with 33gal plastic trash bags. Lighter, mostly single-use yes, durable not so much.

Sadly you are correct. SilNylon and SilPoly are not that expensive now, and would be better options than the polyblue, etc... 

Add School Board members to the list.

Those LitePac diy gear instructions were/are awesome.