Khaliela

This thread has irritated me since it started, there has been a lot of guessing about why scouts is becoming prissy and I have two points on the matter:

 

1) MONEY!! Your council and national want dues $; to do that they need to increase membership and retain already enrolled members. That means they are recruiting and keeping kids that don't want squat to do with the outdoors.

 

2) MANLY??? Seriously???? We are a “prissy†troop according to the local Scouters. Some of our boys even shave their legs, its a great joke while on an outing to see how has smoother legs, them or me (there are times with they have won!)

 

Our “prissy†troop did a 30 mile backpacking trip in the Grand Canyon in March, but that wasn't considered “manly†because we didn't go 50 miles. Our “prissy†troop is having their 50 miler in July, but it isn't manly either because we are canoeing, not backpacking. The boys in our “prissy†troop who shave their legs are either on the swim team or cyclist; one pair and their father even complete all 410 miles of the GOBA (Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure) every summer. Our “prissy†boys can cook their own meals and don't need mommy to do it for them. And yes, we are fastidious about uniforming!

 

So what do the “manly†troops in our area do??? They attend summer camp and Fall Camp O'ree; occasionally Klondike, but outside of that, not much. When they camp they show up with ATV's so their boys won't actually have to walk anywhere; they can't run a camp stove, dutch oven, or cook over an open flame; and I kid you not, I've seen Scout Masters show up at Camp O'ree with boxes of Pizza for dinner because cooking is women work. Two years ago my mom fined one of the “manly†troops $17,000 for destruction of property and failure to comply with park rules and regulations while camping at a CORP of Engineers property. These guys show up with shirts unbuttoned, tails untucked, and basically look like crap.

 

I think we need to redefine “manly.†There is no reason your Scout Uniform shouldn't be given the same care as a military uniform. Failure to comply with local, state, or federal rules and regulations is never "manly;" At best its ignorant, but more likely its just belligerent!

Make sure you are signed into the site. If you do not see your name at the top right under signed in, then you are unable to do some things.

I'm signed in now; still doesn't work.

Seeing as how I am from AZ, and right in the middle of the Mormon Corridor, you'd think that religion would come up a lot. But really, it doesn't. Our Pack and Troop is wildly diverse, from very conservative Christians, to a Jewish family, to bordering on pagan or shamanic traditions...And we embrace that diversity.

 

When I went to Woodbadge, they pounded diversity into us (and this was a 95% LDS staff)...And when I was on staff, with a different 95% mostly LDS staff, I never 'prayed' so much in my life. But that was ok, because it made me expand my own thoughts on religion.

 

In practical terms, as far as rank advancement and the religious requirements, we intentionally leave it to the parents to complete with their children, and just ask them to report back when they have completed that requirement. We might open with a nice generic prayer, but we intentionally keep it generic.

 

For boards of review, we might talk about reverence and duty to God, but its always in the context of the boy's own beliefs, and how reverence pertains not only to their own faith, but to the faiths of others as well.

 

Do the boys talk about their religious beliefs? I don't think I've ever overheard a conversation like that. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but I've just never heard one that goes for more than a couple of minutes.

When I went to Wood Badge they pushed diversity too, but what they called diversity had nothing to do with different religions (or different cultures, or even different colors). They spent two days talking about generations in scouting. When my son and I go fishing that's not diversity even though each of us represent a different generation.

As far as "selecting" adults go' date=' we have the opposite problem. The units know how to go about nominating an adult, but the OA advisers reject them every year. I know this has happened in our troop two years in a row as well as it happening in another troop also. Just because you send in an adult application doesn't mean that adult will be selected for OA.[/quote']

 

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If a unit has a scout elected, then the unit may nominate an adult. As of this year, for each addtional three elected scouts, another adult may be nominated. If the scoutmaster is not an arrowman and has been in that position for at least a year, he is automatically nominated. These nominations should be accepted by the chapter and lodge adviser at face value. In previous years, if at least one scout was elected then an adult could be nominated. Another adult could be nominated for each 50 active scouts in the troop.

 

Now the district may also nominate a small number of adults for the OA. District nominations are completely separate from unit nominations.

From what I understand, and I'm not in OA, this is only what the rep said:

The District doesn't nominate anyone. After the units have had elections and turned in their adult applications, the district committee decides which two applications, of all the adult applications from all the units in the District, will be forwarded to the lodge. Our OA person is also a member of the District Committee, so they choose which applications will be forwarded based on his input.

Never heard of them pulling out an adult unless they were loudly proclaiming and promoting being an atheist.. Most the adults I know I have no idea what the believe or if they believe in anything it is just accepted that if they signed up they were at peace with what they signed. Many are not affiliated with any church at all. The only time I have heard of anything is if a boy gets a question at their eagle board, and they proclaim they are atheist or whatever, at which point it is usually as much of a surprise to the scoutmaster, and the boy may not even know that he is saying something that will hurt his chances of getting his eagle (or he does know and it is an "in your face" move)... That it also was an ambush by district leaders tells me that you had a corrupt bunch on your district staff and there was something other then your religion that caused them to want to take you down..

DWise1: I knew they were violating the rules at the time. I also knew there was nothing I could do about because National won't enforce their own rules and have won every lawsuit ever filed. If it weren't for the fact that my son is interested in becoming career military and has already been working on his pilots license we wouldn't be bothering with Scouts, but the rank of Eagle gets him an automatic rank advancement upon enlisting.

But the unit was Chartered by the Knights of Columbus and the only recruited through the Catholic School' date=' so they assumed everyone was Catholic. All the kids were required to take the religion class and attend weekly Mass, so requiring Religious Emblems as part of the units activities was not a far stretch.[/quote']

 

 

 

When I hear about units like this, my only hope is that there is another troop in the same town (or other such area) that has a "come one come all" attitude. While it is true that there are parents who will drive for miles at a time to take their sons to an out-of-the-way troop that fits their units, there are others who won't. I'd hate to see the Hindu or Muslim or Jewish or Wiccan or whatever kids miss out because the only "convenient" troop is closely tied into a religious institution of which they are not a member. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a "Catholic troop" or a "Jewish troop" (they do exist in this part of the country) or an "LDS troop" (they also exist in this part of the country, there are 2 I know of in New Jersey), but I'd like to see an Everybody-Else Troop next door as well.

Around here we have troops coming out our ears. Our district has a population of about 97,000 people spread over two counties. The town I live in has a population of 791 people and still manages to support 3 troops. The LDS are pretty much "LDS only," just like the Catholic one is "Catholic only," the third is a "generic protestant,". The Protestant boys meet 1/2 the year at the Lutheran Church and 1/2 the year at the Presbyterian Church. I drive my son to another town for scouts and have joined a Methodist Troop, which insidently is the catch all troop because there are only 2 Methodist boys in the troop.

I don't know where to put this, but I thought it was a good idea and worth sharing.

 

While browsing at a bookstore today I came across this: http://www.amazon.com/Grandpa-Tell-Me-Your-Memories/dp/1563830388#reader_1563830388

 

I flipped through it and found great questions, such as: Tell me the most exciting thing that ever happened while you were sledding? What kinds of things did you and your siblings do that would get you into trouble?

 

I'm getting a copy for my son, so he can ask Grandpa some of these question while on their annual fishing trip.

Khaliela, my guess is that you didn't run into an official policy from National (though I have heard stories that there are people there who are actively hostile to neo-pagens), but into a group of bigoted volunteers. You should appeal it up the chain, even if it's only to get it on record.

 

Also, which council was this, and how long ago?

Scouter 99:

You can be a member of BSA if you are an American Citizen or live in the United States.

You cam be a member of Scouts Canada if you are a Canadian Citizen or live in Canada.

You can not be a Member of Scouts Canada if you are not a Canadian citizen and DO NOT live in Canada.

I think it depends on the Unit.

 

Discussions in the unit: Occasionally. We had one Unitarian lad who was questioning his faith and made plans with some of the other boys to attend Catholic and Methodist services. Occasionally one of the Christian boys will ask what someone is doing when they have gone off to smudge or something similar.

 

When camping on Sundays rather than a "Scouts Own Service" we have all the boys go do a good turn and report back. At Court of Honors or SM Minutes it is understood that whoever is leading the prayer/benediction gets to choose what is said, so sometimes you get a Catholic Prayer, sometimes you get a Native America one, sometimes you get a Unitarian one. The boys seem to be pretty accepting of everyone else and their Faith. The only times we run into problems is at District or Council Events and then it's because of the Adults involved not the boys.

 

When we were part of the Catholic Unit all the boys were required to earn their Religious Emblems and those were worked on during troop time. Everyone was required to participate in Scout Sunday, etc. But the unit was Chartered by the Knights of Columbus and the only recruited through the Catholic School, so they assumed everyone was Catholic. All the kids were required to take the religion class and attend weekly Mass, so requiring Religious Emblems as part of the units activities was not a far stretch.

I definitely show my newbie status when reading this as I had no idea some packs actually issued these and let the scouts swap them out yearly vs. purchasing them. All of our scouts are to acquire their uniform on their time at the local scout shop (a little over an hour or so away), online, etc.I was told they would help donate to those who could not afford them but not the entire group. I plan on making a shadow box later on (well, that's the idea anyways) so I have no problem purchasing the items each year. I definitely agree to point it out in detail at the beginning (even if some forget, at least you put it out there.) I'd hope clarifying would either persuade them to purchase their own if they wanted to keep it or know early on about turning it over (if not, ask them to cover the cost when it comes time.)

We do a radio spot and ask for donations of old Scout uniforms we we do Scouting for food. You'd be surprised how many bits and pieces of Uniforms turn up in the Scouting for food bags. By doing that we are able to keep a uniform bank in the Scout Closet for boys in need. It also comes in handy in a pinch when a boy has forgotten part of his uniform for an event or troop meeting; we just seend them into the closet for a "loaner" so everyone is properly uniformed for whatever we happen to be doing.

Our Troop invites the Weblos to Fall Camp O'Ree (not many show up because we go out of district) and then to another event later in the Fall. (They did a Wilderness Survival Campout in NOVEMBER one you in the snow, sleet, and freezing rain; i'm surpised any boys joined that year!) In January we have a Welcome Weblo's night during one of our regular troop meetings.

 

The best things a WEBLO's leader can do is to the those boys to see as many troops as possible. Every troop has a differnt flavor. We loose a lot less boys now that we point out other troops for them to visit. When they boys are actually choosing between troops they seem to be more vested in their decision.

Never heard of them pulling out an adult unless they were loudly proclaiming and promoting being an atheist.. Most the adults I know I have no idea what the believe or if they believe in anything it is just accepted that if they signed up they were at peace with what they signed. Many are not affiliated with any church at all. The only time I have heard of anything is if a boy gets a question at their eagle board, and they proclaim they are atheist or whatever, at which point it is usually as much of a surprise to the scoutmaster, and the boy may not even know that he is saying something that will hurt his chances of getting his eagle (or he does know and it is an "in your face" move)... That it also was an ambush by district leaders tells me that you had a corrupt bunch on your district staff and there was something other then your religion that caused them to want to take you down..

The letter "officially" said that it was because I would not follow patrol method or adhere to the principles taught at Wood Badge. I put in my course evaluation that I would never force a non-christian Scout to participate in Christian activities just because the rest of his partol was. I also said that having single religion services would not work in our troop because we have boys from multiple religions. The course evaluation was supposed to be annyonmous, but I was confronted with it by my Wood Badge Troop Guide, and because a Scout is Trustworthy admitted that I wrote the evaluation and restated that I would not force non-christian boys to participate in Christian activities.

Khaliela, my guess is that you didn't run into an official policy from National (though I have heard stories that there are people there who are actively hostile to neo-pagens), but into a group of bigoted volunteers. You should appeal it up the chain, even if it's only to get it on record.

 

Also, which council was this, and how long ago?

June 2012--Inland Northwest Council #611

I wrote two letters to National and never got a reply from either.

I contacted Scouts Canada and was told by the personel in Ottawa that they have list of people who have been denied membership in BSA and want to join Scouts Canada, but so far the WOSM won't allow you to join Scouts in another country unless you actually live in that Country. I guess Scouts Canada is working on trying to remove that provision because it would increase their membership if everyone in the USA that BSA kicked out was able to join Scouts Canada.

We presented the Arrow of Light to all the boys with much hoopla; then we did the cross over for the boys moving to Boy Scouts. As long as you seporate the Arrow of Light from the cross-over it works well. When I did it we started in our "usual" room and did the arrow of light; then moved the boys into the fireside room where the OA Boys had the lights out and the fire lit. The boys are told that once they enter the room there is no talking. The whole process usually keeps all the little guys enthrawled.

Somtimes the best thing you can do for yourself and the unit is to leave. It's hard, but you might consider asking the woman who left what pack they joined and go check it out.

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, and there are some people who you won't be able to please ever.

There is certainly nothing unethical about ISAs PROVIDED they are run properly. Examples:

 

Johnny goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the sale profits will go to fund his troop and his trip to Camp XYZ. The money is used by the troop and for Johnny to attend Camp XYZ - no problem.

 

 

Jimmy goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the profits will benefit boy scouts, and be used by the Troop to purchase gear. Instead, the money is used to send him to Camp. - PROBLEM.

 

Basically, there is no problem with ISAs from fundraising provided the stated purpose of the fundraising is disclosed & maintained. Its when excess is collected or the purpose is changed that the ethical issues arise. We DO NOT use ISAs in our troop, but we do allow fundraising for Eagle project costs. In that case, any excess MUST be given to the organization sponsoring the eagle project, or be burned up during the eagle project.

Why would excess be an ethical issue? If Johnny has extra "scout bucks" from last year why wouldn't it just roll over to this year. And if Johnny has extra several years in a row it sounds like he would be in a good position to pay for Jamboree in the future.

Never heard of them pulling out an adult unless they were loudly proclaiming and promoting being an atheist.. Most the adults I know I have no idea what the believe or if they believe in anything it is just accepted that if they signed up they were at peace with what they signed. Many are not affiliated with any church at all. The only time I have heard of anything is if a boy gets a question at their eagle board, and they proclaim they are atheist or whatever, at which point it is usually as much of a surprise to the scoutmaster, and the boy may not even know that he is saying something that will hurt his chances of getting his eagle (or he does know and it is an "in your face" move)... That it also was an ambush by district leaders tells me that you had a corrupt bunch on your district staff and there was something other then your religion that caused them to want to take you down..

I asked for "Religious Accommodations" when I filled out my Wood Badge application stating that I would need personal time alone for religious observances. (I didn't tell them which religion.) When I arrived I was denied any accommodations. I was told that I would have to participate in all of the Christian services (and wear the hat) and that if I wanted to worship my own way it would have to be AFTER lights out for the evening (about 11 PM). My Patrol noticed something was bothering me and one of them followed me off into the woods one night because patrols could get dinged for not following the buddy system. When they learned that no religious accommodations were being made they decided they wanted to preform a Druid firefighting ceremony so that I could be included. The ASM for Wood Badge rejected the plan and said in front of my entire patrol that my religion was occult and had no place in scouting and that they needed to keep me in line. That was where my scouting tenure ended. One of my Patrol members wrote a letter to our council on my behalf stating that he felt that the Wood Badge staff were wrong, but he ended up being kicked out of his troop too.

Never heard of them pulling out an adult unless they were loudly proclaiming and promoting being an atheist.. Most the adults I know I have no idea what the believe or if they believe in anything it is just accepted that if they signed up they were at peace with what they signed. Many are not affiliated with any church at all. The only time I have heard of anything is if a boy gets a question at their eagle board, and they proclaim they are atheist or whatever, at which point it is usually as much of a surprise to the scoutmaster, and the boy may not even know that he is saying something that will hurt his chances of getting his eagle (or he does know and it is an "in your face" move)... That it also was an ambush by district leaders tells me that you had a corrupt bunch on your district staff and there was something other then your religion that caused them to want to take you down..

@Moosetracker

I have no idea where you came up with the notion that I was "big into older scoutcraft ways." I was told that my my religion was occult, and that I was not following patrol method when I asked to be excused from wearing that stupid hat.

I had a skit where the boys put their old neckerchiefs into a paper bag and I "magically" turned them into the new neckerchief. (I gave the old ones back to the parents when the boys were busy elsewhere because we didn't pay for neckerchiefs, but this would be a handy way for you to collect all of them.)

... DWise refers to himself as an "atheist" which is understood to preclude belief in God. ... BSA has magnanimously and reasonably taken a stance that allows for the widest interpretation of "duty to god" to the inclusion even of philosophical belief systems that don't have a god, like Buddhism; it's bad form to turn that around on BSA and try to use it against them.

 

Sorry, the above makes no sense at all. If a Buddhist or a Unitarian or a Wiccan or a Jew can be an atheist and a member of the BSA, then a god isn't needed, and an atheist who just calls himself as an atheist should be able to join, unless the "duty to god" requirement is so shallow that a label makes all the difference. But that's just stupid.

BSA's "official" definition of God is whatever the person wants it to be at the time. We "sneak" Unitarians, Native American spiritualist, Pagans, and even Muslims into our troop; We may even have atheists, though none have proclaimed to be such . Other troops don't allow these people, neither does our district or council. If who ever is above you in the chain of command doesn't think your definition of "god" or "supreme being" is acceptable you can be kicked out.

DWise - I am sorry for your experience in scouting as a youth, it was wrong and you were wronged.. You did say you went through years of appeal, so I would imagine it went up to National and probably beyond to the court system.. I am shocked it went so far, and that you were not victorious.. I am surprised it did not get more media attention as a case as to what is wrong with the BSA.

 

Our District had a similar case last year. Though it took a week of deliberation and speaking more with the young man's religious witness. But, the young man made the mistake of saying at the board that he did not believe in God.. He went out with his scoutmaster while the board deliberated and the scoutmaster told him what he said wrong.. On his return he corrected himself in saying he was not an atheist, he just didn't believe in God as everyone else did.. The board was about to deny him, but decided to investigate upon the statement he did not consider himself an atheist. Lucky for him the person he put down was a Catholic priest.. the young man went to a Catholic school, yet was not Catholic.. The priest though wrote a statement on his behalf which when I saw it I thought was going to be too wishy washy for the board to accept.. The letter only stated he was respectful of others beliefs and was a good kid.. But, the board decided to consider the boy "In search of" what God means to him, but that he was not a atheist. So he was approved.. Therefore the scout never needed to appeal higher then District's board. Our board has stated that you need to believe in something higher then yourself, but have stated they don't care if it is a rock, tree or lamppost, you just might need a little more explanation as to why the lamppost is a higher entity then yourself, if that is what you believe. Still I wonder, if the boy had not attended a Catholic school, and had a Catholic priest as his witness if it would have turned out so well. But, I am certain that this board would have excepted your UU beliefs and the statements of your minister as equally acceptable also..

"It appears that there is no law that requires a private organization to actually adhere to its own self-appointed rules and regulations. . . . In all court cases, BSA won the overall case on technicalities."

Preciously why I didn't bother with a case.

Never heard of them pulling out an adult unless they were loudly proclaiming and promoting being an atheist.. Most the adults I know I have no idea what the believe or if they believe in anything it is just accepted that if they signed up they were at peace with what they signed. Many are not affiliated with any church at all. The only time I have heard of anything is if a boy gets a question at their eagle board, and they proclaim they are atheist or whatever, at which point it is usually as much of a surprise to the scoutmaster, and the boy may not even know that he is saying something that will hurt his chances of getting his eagle (or he does know and it is an "in your face" move)... That it also was an ambush by district leaders tells me that you had a corrupt bunch on your district staff and there was something other then your religion that caused them to want to take you down..

I was "pulled" as you put it and I'm not even an Atheist. I was a scouter for 10 years before my council kicked me out for not being Christian. I given multiple district awards, was a council trainer, camp staff, an ASM and a CM. My unit wanted to keep me, but were told that the council would not renew our charter if I held a leadership position. National won't enforce it's own policy so the only thing that matters is what the people directly above you in the chain of command want.

It doesn't meet your criteria, but we go to a patrol-oriented camp in New Hampshire, and I love it. At this point, our Scouts don't even remember the old in-council "advancement-oriented" camp, loaded with all-day merit badge classes, that we are missing.

 

I mentioned this to a D.E. once, and his reply was "our local camp has patrol cooking". I said, "the camp we're going to has way more to it than just patrol cooking -- activities are all patrol-based too" (and even though they don't have the same emphasis on advancement, a motivated patrol can earn several different merit badges). I asked the DE if he'd ever visited the camp, but he said no. I was left wondering why a guy in his position (he was staff adviser to the council's summer camp) wouldn't know what the competition in an adjacent council was offering.

 

Last summer, a couple of DE's did decide to visit me at camp, and I took them on a tour. They were amazed at how different the camp is.

 

I've talked about it on this forum: Camp Bell, Daniel Webster Council. Great place. So far, it's my favorite, out of the six or so council summer camps where I've spent a week.

 

"it's way more than just patrol cooking"

 

Guy

Our council doesn't even offer patrol cooking; everything is served cafeteria style.

I think camp directors should be required to visit other camps; but alas, they are so sure that theirs is best they don't see the need.

We use ISA's and every month the treasurer's report contains information on how much money the boys have in "Scouts Bucks."

In my experience not having ISA's causes more trouble than having them. Parents get awfully upset when little Jimmy gets the same amount of money for camp as everyone else even though Jimmy didn't participate in any of the fundraising activities all year.

 

We divide up fundraisers according to whether they are a troop fundraiser or a "Scout Bucks" Fundraiser. Everyone is required to participate in the annual Troop Fundraiser; money from that pays for patches, Camp O'ree Fees, State Park/National Forest Fees, supplies, grub, etc. Scout Bucks fundraisers are optional and the money from those goes directly into each boy's account. This helps motivate the boys because they know that any money they earn directly benefits them and can be used to pay for Camp, big trips (like the Grand Canyon this spring), or any other scouting related expenses (merit badge supplies, camp tee shirts, uniforms, etc.) Boys that need extra money have the ability to work multiple shifts and earn more than a scouts that only wants to work one shift.

 

We have a couple of families that could not afford scouts if it weren't for their Scout Bucks accounts. Their boys always work two or three shifts and put in a lot of extra time on Scout Bucks fundraisers. I don't see how this is unethical. Why would anyone begrudge a boy the ability to earn his way to camp?

If he slide it a crossed the table to me and said here....

 

No.

 

But if he sat down and said......

 

Here is my allowance deposits, here is where I deposited my lawn mowing money birthday money......I doubt his total finances are on that card.....I was saving for the new video game or ipod and here is where I bought it....Here is where I paid for the cmp out.

 

He probably doesn't have monthly expenses.....

 

 

Q thats funny

Depending on the age of the Scout he may have monthly expenses. My oldest child is expected to pay his car insurance. Both boys are required to pay for their phones.

 

Is the boy tithing or giving any money to charity? That would be another monthly expense.

 

Do they have pets? 4-H is supper great for teaching kids about expenses as they are required to track all of the income and expenses from their projects. How much feed did they buy? Were their any unexpected vet bills? Did you sell any market lambs or Easter bunnies?