BrentAllen

Gern, Kind of hard to hold District Committee training under a billboard, when it's raining. Must say I totally disagree about billboards vs. shiny building. Our building is more like a Scout Lodge than office building, as far as ambience. I'm always running in to someone I know when I stop by - mostly volunteers. Location, design - it all adds up to a place we like to visit. Those criteria come with a price. When the council HQ was located downtown, most people dreaded making a trip there. The building is our useable billboard (it is visible from I-75 when travelling south).

Acco, I couldn't resist. :-) This is God's country here in the South, ya know. ;^)

Brian, You answered your own question, if you cared to look. "The LORD said to Moses, "Cut two stone tablets like the former, that I may write on them the commandments which were on the former tablets that you broke." WHICH WERE ON THE FORMER TABLETS THAT YOU BROKE "So Moses stayed there with the LORD for forty days and forty nights, without eating any food or drinking any water, and he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." Now maybe you count all the items in the dialogue and come up with 10. If so, please list and number them. I see the 10 commandments (the ones 99% of us agree are the 10 commandments) as part of the covenant, and the other dialogue is a verbal covenant. I wasn't there, you know.

Red State greetings to you, funscout! I do consider myself very fortunate, in many ways! OGE, do you really need to ask that? Sitting here in Georgia, we look at what is happening in San Francisco or Mass. and we wonder if we are on the same planet! I guess we are that different. I'm an American, from the State of Georgia. We, as a state, are very much against gay marriage. We, as a state, believe strongly that the Second Amendment gives us the individual right to keep and bear arms. I would guess there are several states in the northeast or west coast that would not agree with us. Of course, not everyone who lives in Georgia is a conservative. My county, Dekalb, is the most diverse in the state. The vast majority of the state is pretty conservative, though. This web page has been a real eye-opener for me. Here, most who join Scouts are more conservative than the average state resident. I'm not used to seeing many liberals in Scouting. A conversation about allowing gays and atheists in wouldn't last very long here - maybe 3 seconds.

Gern wrote, "You certainly aren't suggesting that you would not support scouting if your council office was located in a low rent district are you?" Not sure how to you took the text of my post and came up with that question - care to explain? I said, "I really wouldn't want to visit the center often if it was located in a low rent area, in a renovated shopping mall." That statement is true. I'm not sure how you came about equating "visit" with "support." Our center is very accessible, at the junction of I-285 and I-75. I've never seen anyone who visited the center who was not impressed. Now maybe you don't see a need to impress. I do. I also see a need to impress new parents and boys visiting our Pack Open House. We want to show a well run, successful operation. If I walked in and saw a disorganized unit with run-down equipment, I would not be impressed, and not inspired to join. Due to the intelligent design and convenient location, this center is used all the time. Every night there are different groups using the conference rooms for planning events, or training. I guess some might see the center as extravagant; the rest of us see it as a symbol of the successful organization.

Time for some good news. Our council has taken it on the nose in the news recently (Atlanta Area Council) but the Scout families appear to fully support the current leadership. Our camps are in great shape, and very popular. Our district held a Golden Eagle breakfast at one of the country clubs last Friday. Dan Cathy, President and COO of Chick-fil-A was the speaker. Stephen McGaw, Sr. VP at Cingular was the host. We had a group of somewhere around 100 - 125 guests. The very ambitious goal was to raise $100,000 that morning. I think our final number is up around $114,000. This is just our district, one of 17 in the council. We are just getting started on FOS. Yes, we have a large, fairly new Volunteer Service Center. You can see the front of it at http://www.atlantabsa.org/aboutus.htm The building is used all the time, by professionals and volunteers alike. I really wouldn't want to visit the center often if it was located in a low rent area, in a renovated shopping mall. We take a lot of pride in the building. I would say Scouting is going strong here, and we feel that our council is in very good shape. I think the Board of Directors deserves a lot of the credit/blame for the condition of the council. If you have a strong, active Board, the same can probably be said for the condition of the council.

I try to avoid what I call "sit-n-listens" at our Pack meetings. By that, I mean any time where the boys just sit and listen to an adult go on and on about something that should be discussed with the parents. Not all announcements fall under that term - exciting events coming up, like PWD or a camping trip, the boys like to hear a brief update about those. But once the information departs from an exciting announcement to a check list for the parents, it becomes a "sit-n-listen", which the boys lose interest in pretty quickly. Just my .02 worth.

After the elections today, it looks like the Canadians have had their fill of the liberal left ruling party. Will the country's move to the right pull Scouts Canada along with it, and right that sinking ship? Or will that organization continue in free fall until there is nothing left but a sad history? Only time will tell...

So would it be safe to say the rejection of his liberal interpretation goes back to the forming of this country?

Something doesn't add up. Their FOS fundraising fell $100,000 last year, and they are $1 million in debt?? If the council covers only 8,000 Scouts, maybe they should merge with another. My council (Atlanta Area) covers around 34,000 Scouts. If this is all the information the Scouting families are given about the cause of the financial crisis, I think they are going to meet with a lot of resistance. I would certainly want to know more about the situation before I made a contribution to help the council.

Madison was overruled, so your point was?

Actually, Announcements ARE part of the Pack meeting, under Closing (Announcements, Closing ceremony). Check page 34-37 of the Cub Scout Leader Book, under Pack Meeting Planning Sheet. That being said, I keep them to an absolute minimum. Our Pack sings the short version, and only once this year because of my use of the A word. Others who go before the group might be in for a surprise! If you want to change the words, I would suggest coming up with another fun version, instead of just telling the Scouts they can't sing that anymore. The fact that the song has survived for 7 years at the Pack doesn't mean the adults are passing it down. The boys usually teach it to each other, so each new group of Tigers pick it up from the other dens. Brent Allen Cubmaster, Pack 494 I used to be a Fox, and a good old Fox too...

The "wall" mentioned by Jefferson was a simple restatement of the text in the Constitution. It did not identify any new interpretation of the language. The broad, liberal interpretation came through the courts much, much later.

Thanks, everyone - it was a very nice ceremony! Robert - definitely do it in front of the Troop - I think the Scouts like seeing one of their own up front receiving their beads. I had one Bear, who is usually one of the wilder Scouts in that den, come up to me afterwards, offer a handshake, and gave a very sincere "congratulations!" His father was more shocked than was I! SWScouter - not even a little bit! We had a PTA meeting tonight, and I put together a Color Guard for the opening ceremony. Parents were still coming by, offering congratulations while we were preparing. Maybe next month the smile will start to wane, but don't count on it! My father gave me a small bag of gifts, which was really nice. He included a copy of Gilwell Park - A brief history and guided tour, and Footsteps of the Founder, both with inscriptions. Also included were a CD of Bugle Calls/Voice of Lord Baden-Powell, the cassette of Lord Baden-Powell, Historical Recordings, the WB staff medalion and lapel pin. My Scoutmaster gave me a copy of The Scoutmaster Minute, also inscribed. Sorry if I'm bragging, this was just a nice finish to a great WB experience for me. I think it was a good experience for our Pack to see some Scouters with long records of service. They saw there is a lot more to Scouting than just going to Den and Pack meetings while in elementary school. I think they have a much different perspective now.

You might want to take a look at these web pages. My son is a Webelos I, so we haven't made them yet. I'm just getting ready! :-) http://members.aol.com/TatankaScouts/page0003.html http://acornawards.com/ http://www.dacbsa.org/Resources-DACWorkshop/Career%20Arrows.pdf Some different ceremonies, as well: http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/aol-cere.html http://scoutingbear.com/Ceremony/jarrow1.htm

Brian, I guess I look at the numbers and draw a different conclusion. 1981 - 2,829,000 1990 - 3,268,630 1992 - 3,500,000 1996 - 3,340,000 1999 - 3,700,000 2004 - 2,800,000 (from Girlscouts.org) Hard to draw any real conclusions, but it looks like numbers dropped after the 1993 policy change. They turned back up around 1999 but have dropped back below 1981 levels. I wonder how they explain nearly a 1 million drop in membership in 5 years? Are these numbers supposed to support your case? If Title IX calls for equal opportunities for the sexes, I don't see why the same can't apply to schools chartering Scout units. As long as a school offered to charter any "Scouting for All" unit, there shouldn't be a problem. All we need is an Title IX-type law for religion - one that simply calls for equal opportunities. Am I wrong? If so, how?

packsaddle, Emory? Are we in the same District?? I'm not playing detective, just curious. Brian, I'm curious where you got your Girl Scout numbers. I'm having trouble locating them. I thought I had heard the opposite, but can't say for sure. I haven't studied this, but wouldn't a high school boy's basketball team belong to the school? Since they don't let girls be members of the team, isn't that sexual descrimination? How about all those high school football teams? Is this type of descrimination by our schools ok? What about schools that sponsor Fellowship of Christian Athletes clubs?

packsaddle, Your posts do intrigue me. After reading your last post, I located other posts you have made. For instance, "Also, I happen to know that BSA already HAS gay leaders and other gay members. You just don't know who they are and I'm not going to 'out' them." And "This issue reminds me of something I learned several decades ago during a citizenship merit badge: ignorance of the law doesn't excuse breaking it." And finally, "Stop breaking the law." Is it just me, or are these statements just a little contradictory? I'm curious what part of the country you're in, if you can give some indication without revealing your true identity. In my part of the country, if the BSA allowed gays and aetheists in, there would be a stampede out the door. Of course, I'm in a red state. Brian, Sorry, but I don't share your twisted view that a school chartering a Cub Scout Pack is tantamount to religious discrimination. Did the Supreme Court actually decide that, or did the BSA agree not to accept charters to put an end to the lawsuits? Sounds to me like your beef is with the individual public schools - they are the ones agreeing to charter. I'll tell you the lessons the BSA should take from Canada Scouts - stick to your guns! Don't let a tiny minority of leftists try to intimidate you. Compromising your values will be the death of the organization. Continue to do what you are doing - ignore them.

Well, Brian, Scouts Canada sure isn't proving to be a good case study for your side. Whether or not the decline is due to the change in policy, it is certainly clear allowing girls and gays in has not brought in the droves of new members, as had been claimed. I'm curious what lesson(s) you think the BSA should take from Canada. As far as the PTA's, bring it on. If they aren't allowed to sponsor us, we'll go down the street to one of the churchs or a business. I'll fill out a New Unit Application form, which will take all of 2 minutes, and nothing else will change. We will continue to meet at the school for Pack meetings and recruit there. The fact that we had to move our charter from the school to the PTA has actually helped with our fundraising. When we tell the story about what the ridiculous, evil ACLU is trying to do, the checkbooks come right out! So I guess I should actually thank you! How long before the PTA issue comes up? Can you schedule it in about 12 months? We could probably use another fund raising issue about then.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Rooster, Come on, now. We all know the correct time to fart - as soon as you get some newbie to pull your finger... LNT is definitely not a crock. (I'm a conservationist, not an environmentalist, BTW) LNT simply says you are trying to leave an area as if you had not been there. Do some take it to extremes? Yes, but when has that surprised anyone? Do you like visiting campgrounds where there is nothing but bare dirt ground and erosion everywhere? Trails that are eroded, and big enough to drive a semi through? Camping in areas that are devoid of all wild life because it has been chased away by previous campers? I certainly don't. I think the BSA did the right thing by adopting a scaled down set of guidelines that match our program. Don't pooh-pooh it just because some environmentalists take it to be their bible.

Are you really Brian Westley, from Scouting For All? Inquiring minds want to know! I'm sure numbers will be down for the past year, after the scrubbing of the rolls. I can only speak for the units in my area, which are experiencing strong growth. Our Pack is up 30% over last year, going from 72 to 95 boys. There are 4 Packs within 5 miles of us, some larger, some smaller. This is a suburban area, almost entirely single-family houses. Yes, we were chartered by the elementary school until recently. We are now chartered by the PTA - happy? How much change did it make to any individual in our community? None, zilch. Try to manipulate the Canada Scouts number all you like, and compare them to ours, but you can't deny one huge point. Gay-friendly Canada has had a big population increase, but yet their Scouting memberships continue to decline. Their new policy in 1998 was supposed to open the door for all these new prospects - females and gays - to join. Their numbers should be booming! Instead, they are facing bankruptcy, declining memberships, and are forced to sell properties. How can anyone look at those numbers and see anything but complete failure? Where are all the new members? Where is the retainage? Sad, truly sad.

From the G2SS, pg. 4 Each Cub Scout den and Webelos Scout den and each chartered Cub Scout pack, Boy Scout troop, Varsity Scout team, and Venturing crew shall have one leader, 21 years of age or older, who shall be registered and serve as the unit or den leader. A unit leader may not serve simultaneously in any other position within the same unit. The head of the chartered organization or chartered organization representative and the local council must approve the registration of the unit or den leader on the appropriate form. Primary reference: Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America. At first, that looked straight-forward, but after further inspection, I have questions. Is a den leader also a unit leader? Or is the Cubmaster or Committee Chair the unit leader? The answer to those questions will answer the others I have. The only real hard and fast rule I've heard is that the COR and Committee Chair cannot be the same person. As Cubmaster, I attend my son's den meetings (Webelos) and act as an ADL, along with 2 others, both of whom are registered as ADL's. We do not have any individuals serving as a Den Leader for more than one Den. CM's and ACM's do not also serve as DL's.

toutletodd wrote: "8. After what happend in Canada with allowing gays, the BSA will not be changing its view on this issue any time soon." I was not familiar with what happened in Canada. Last night I did some searching around, and after seeing the numbers from several sources, I hope the statement above is true. I could not verify the property issues in the following articles, but the membership decline can be verified directly from Scouts Canada. Anyone want to see this happen here in the USA? The Death of Canadian Scouting August, 2004 by Featured Writer: Hans Zeiger Big Canadian real estate is on the market. A rather sizable chunk of Lord Robert Baden-Powell's Empire is available for investors, homebuilders, fishing resort prospectors, or blacktop barons. Scouts Canada is pounding in "for sale" signs at the entrances of a number of Scout camps across the country, including at least twenty camps in Ontario. But don't worry. No Boy Scouts will mourn the loss of their summer camps, for the Boy Scouts of Canada no longer exist. Thinking they could become more inclusive, the Boy Scouts of Canada Board of Governors decided in November 1998 to admit females, atheists, agnostics, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transsexuals into troops. Despite that established troops were not even allowed to remain all-male groups, Scouts Canada approved the establishment of the world's first all-homosexual troop in 1999. The troop marches in homosexual pride parades and loudly symbolizes what Scouts Canada calls its commitment to diversity. Scouts Canada's new non-discrimination code reads: "Scouting is a worldwide, multicultural movement. We welcome people to membership regardless of gender, race, culture, religious belief, sexual orientation or economic circumstances. Youth members are strongly influenced by the behaviour of adults. We need to be sensitive to the traditions and beliefs of all people and to avoid words or actions which "put down" anybody." And so, in its attempt to include everybody and everything, Scouts Canada is effectively dead. Budgets have run dry. Troop halls and old campsites sit vacant. Professional staff salaries are severed. Membership is mostly decimated. In the past, membership roles consistently exceeded 300,000. Around the peak in 1965, there were 320,000 Boy Scouts. Today, despite a one third population increase in Canada over four decades and a doubling of the demographic possibilities (with female members), Scouts Canada has dwindled to a puny 130,000 and it is rapidly declining. Open to all, there is a certain liability that accompanies the mixture of sexes and sexual preferences at Scout Camp. It is no coincidence that Scouts Canada's costs for liability insurance against sexual molestation claims increased dramatically by 2002 when, lacking adequate finances, Scouts Canada canceled its sex abuse insurance, and with it many "high risk" activities. Without the insurance, a single pedophile could potentially annihilate Scouts Canada forever. Esprit de corps has evaporated. Last year, wearing a uniform at official Scout events became optional. Scoutmasters were deprived of the authority to demand the wearing of uniforms. "It's time to stop bickering about the clothes we wear," said Ms. Bonita Brick, chair of the National Scouts Youth Committee that handed down the uniform decision. "Accept the reality of change." It seems that change is not so attractive to the traditional core of Scouts Canada. "It is disheartening. Everything seems to be going down and down," laments veteran Scouter Bill Stauttener who manages Union Marsh Scout Camp which is set to go on the chopping block. Eastern Ontario's Camp Apple Hill is expected to sell for just $30,000, a bargain considering that it is 300 acres. "It's very heartbreaking and very distressing," says three-decade Scout leader Pat Tugwood. It may be a sad affair for some who've been around Canadian Scouting for a while, but I say good riddance to Scouts Canada. They ceased to serve any useful purpose the day they became all-inclusive, all-sensitive, and all-tolerant. The Scout Oath and Scout Law are obliterated in the land of the red maple leaf north of Parallel 49. It is doubtful that this organization can be resuscitated. Political correctness, having infected whole institutions, does not easily reverse. But we Americans might well consider this malady and contain it at the border. "In meeting the challenges of a multi-faith society which is increasingly gay-positive, the [boy Scouts of America] might follow the lead of Scouts Canada," urges a writer at ReligiousTolerance.org. And thus the far Left attacks the Boy Scouts of America, relentlessly for the past two decades. There are prices to be paid by the BSA for standing on traditional moral values, but none so severe as this eulogy of Scouts Canada. In America, United Way funding may be cut, cities and school districts may abandon the Scouts, courts may order the Scouts to leave public property. But so long as the Scout Oath and Law remain intact, the Boy Scouts of America can survive. Goodbye, Scouts Canada. Political correctness is sure grand, eh? Hans Zeiger is president of the Scout Honor Coalition and a student at Hillsdale College. www.hanszeiger.com

It has been a long road to get here, but the time has arrived. My beading ceremony will take place next Tuesday evening, at our Pack meeting. I thought long and hard about having the ceremony at a Pack meeting, but since my ticket revolved around the unit, I decided it was ok. Plus, I hope it will encourage some of our other leaders to attend. I've invited my father and my Scoutmaster from when I was a Boy Scout to attend - both attended Wood Badge back in the 70's. Maybe my son will follow our footsteps, for a third generation - that would be pretty cool! The training has been a huge help in my positions, as Cubmaster and District Activities Chair. The week I spent at Camp Woodruff has turned out to be one of the most rewarding of my life. Anyone reading this who has been sitting on the fence about attending - to borrow from Nike - Just Do It! Course 92-47, Atlanta Area Council Fox Patrol

OGE, I can't answer that question, and I share your sentiments, but I can tell you many states, including Georgia, are tackling the issue this year. They are tightening the use of eminent domain, trying to prohibit the very problem you mention. A HUD bill has been proposed which would prevent HUD funds from being used for eminent domain for any economic development. Not the answer you are looking for, but some progress towards solving the problem in a different manner.