BrentAllen

Hey Backpacker, Religious intolerance and prejudice - I guess we should buy this, along with your "70% of farmland in US is owned by foreigners" statement. The following is from the USDA, the agency you referenced to back your hillarious claim: Despite earlier concern over foreign ownership of land, data collected through the AFIDA show that foreigners have consistently owned approximately 1 percent of agricultural land during the past two decades. Most of the changes in foreigners agricultural land holdings result from changes in the ownership of forestland. Changes in foreign ownership of forestland are largely due to transactions by large timber companies that may involve millions of acres (Blevins and Smith). As usual, you never let the facts get in the way of a good story, right? You must be fun around the campfire - creating some really wild tales! Please remember - just because you created the thought in your mind - it doesn't make it true. Awaiting your next "creative" attempt at the truth...

If you want near silence in your car, get an audio copy of "Hatchet" or "The River" or anything else by Gary Paulsen. Also try "A Week In The Woods" by Andrew Clements. It is amazing how the time flies by when listening to a good audio book, and equally amazing how quiet the kids can be - they really get locked into the story. Adults enjoy them just as much, if not more, than the kids do.

When I got back into Scouting 4 years ago, I asked if our UC could perform our Pack uniform inspection (the Cub Leader book says that is who should do it). I found out we didn't have a UC. When I asked why not, the answer was we didn't have enough volunteers to fill the positions, and we weren't one of the "trouble, or in trouble" units. ronvo, Your DE is a paid professional. He has duties assigned for which he is paid. He can't just decide not to show up, as a volunteer can. The DE takes care of a lot of work for units at the council. The UC is a volunteer who is there to keep an eye on the "health" of his units. If problems arise, he tries to help solve them. A good UC will also share successful ideas he sees at his other units. I guess you could say they are sort of a volunteer consultant.

I forgot I even had Jethro Tull Original Masters! Just dug it out and popped it in - what a classic! "The flute is a heavy metal instrument." What a great quote, as well! If you are interested in something different, bridging Native American traditional with contemporary, check out Sacred Spirit: Chants and Dances of the Native Americans. You can read a full reviews (77 reviews, 5 stars) and listen to samples on Amazon, but just be warned most of the songs have a 30 second or so prelude, and that is all you are hearing - you never actually get to the song. Track #7 doesn't, so check it out to see what the music is really like. I have a lot fun introducing the boys to Bob Marley, especially Legend. Just be prepared for plenty of Jamaican accents afterwards - they have fun imitating the language.

Once again, council is evil... Hmmm, that $3 million dollar figure came from a February, 2006 article. If it was the NYTimes, I could understand the error, but the WSJ is usually a little more accurate. How much money was raised in 2004?

What a bunch of hooey! Blaaah, blaaah, blaaah, the BSA is terrible, blaaah, blaaah, blaaah.... The Board and the SE had a plan to keep the camp as it is, while selling the development rights. It would not generate a profit. It would generate revenue for expenses. What expenses? From the Wall Street Journal: "Camp Flying Eagle, for example, needs $3 million for capital improvements such as updated bathrooms." I guess some people can't grasp a concept, no matter how plainly it is laid out before them. The value of development rights is tied to the value of the property - it is the leverage for the transaction. Without the value, no leverage, no deal, no nice payment for capital improvements. I think it is an absolute riot to see jkh lecturing others about following the Scout law, and being ethical and moral leaders! Hey jkh - a Scout is cheerful! Try it sometime!

O.K., Doug. I'll correct my small error. Not ONLY did Red Dog work with a group suing to prevent the possible future sale of the property (which would eliminate development rights and diminish the property value), he ALSO encouraged the county commissioners to rezone the property. BOTH actions would do the same thing - wipe out any possible sale of development rights and greatly diminish the property value. He wasn't content with just fighting the Council on one front - he chose to do so on two fronts! "Commissioners were considering whether to amend a future land-use for the camp, in order to prevent development for posterity. Hampton and other Scout executives were there to oppose the amendment contesting that such an act would impose on their rights to sell the property in the future. Hampton previously said the council is not actively marketing the campground but might consider selling it if an offer were attractice enough, according to the Herald's archives. Maynard told the commissioners that Camp Flying Eagle is one of the community's amenities and should be protected from future development." Bradenton Herald. Happy now, Doug? Once the development rights are sold, the issue is over! Developers will have no interest in the property, so there will be no offers to consider, and the property will always remain a camp. The issue could be handled in a couple of ways, all with the same result. One had the potential to pocket the Council a 7 figure payment, which could have been used to make real improvements to the camp. The other ways (rezoning, suing to stop sale) will keep the property as it is, but will result in NO payment for development rights. Gee, which would be the wise course to take??

kaiser, I believe you and Red Dog and your followers have missed the point. Conservation groups, like the water management district, would like the see the land remain natural, or undeveloped. They don't want to buy the property - they just want to keep it from ever being developed. Hence, they just buy the development rights (kind of like buying the mineral rights), which would be much cheaper than buying the entire property. The conservation group doesn't mind the Boy Scouts using the property; in fact, I'm sure they would welcome it because they would maintain the property and keep it from getting trashed. Everybody wins in that situation. Pressure from developers is removed since the property can't be turned into a neighborhood or community or a marina. The Boy Scouts get to use the property as they have been, while receiving a nice payment for doing so, possibly in the 7 figure area. But now, Red Dog and his group are suing to rezone the property. If the property is rezoned, the developers are out of the picture, and so are the development rights - no payment from any conservation group or agency to purchase them. The property value is diminished, with no remuneration to the owners - gee, what a great deal for the Scouts! Not!! So, how much did the actions of Red Dog and his group cost the Council? Possibly millions. As we used to say in school - smooth move, Ex-Lax. Yeah, that Council, the SE and the Board sure are evil! Sounds like they are pretty shrewd to me. Well, they were until the hero of Manatee County jumped in to spoil the pond. Meanwhile, jkh is still worried about how much the SE makes... Give me a break.

LACK of emotion and rumor on savecfe.com?? You must be kidding!?!? Are you reading the same page I am?? Calls for the removal of the SE, comparing the situation to Iraq? Some letter writers even state they had to cool off for a couple of days before writing. It's obvious others couldn't wait. The atmosphere there is definitely anti-Council, especially with jkh posting his anti-BSA rants under "a friend." I don't blame any Council staff or Board members for avoiding the site like the plague.

Capnhizz's Scouting resume sounds very similar to the resumes of Executive Board members found in Atlanta. Long histories in Scouting, successful business professionals - dedicated, qualified individuals. The exact opposite of any description offered by jkh. Thank goodness there are only a few individuals here who buy into the bunk sold by jkh. Maybe even those few will start to see the light...

NO - jkh, the neighborhood is fine! More than 300 Councils in the BSA - how many problems?? Less than 5%! 95% running strong, with Atlanta being the 6th largest in the country. I hope you are not serving as a leader to Scouts now. Your pessimism would be a real downer for the boys.

kaiser, All I can tell you is be proactive - be the one who seeks out and gets to know the Council staff. That is what I have done. I'm in the Scout Shop so often the staff knows me by name. I'm lucky in that one of the top staff members has known my father through Scouting for nearly 30 years. I didn't find this out until after I got to know him. Attend District Committee training. Attend Commissioner College. You don't have to be holding a position with either to attend the training. Use these opportunities to shake hands with Council staff. We invited our SE to our District Awards Banquet, and he and his wife attended. He spoke for about 5 or 10 minutes about the Council successes and challenges. Our DD and DE were both there, as was the Council Senior Finance Director, who I sat next to at dinner. Attend the Council Banquet. Everyone from Council will be at that event. If you feel like you are standing outside, looking in at the Council, talk to the SE or your representative on the Executive Board and ask them to set up a meet & greet for your District. I think you will find you have much more in common than you think. As with most problems, it usually comes down to a lack of communication. Bottom line - be proactive. Don't wait for them to come to you - go to them. Once they get to know you and discover your devotion to Scouting, you will start seeing them around. They need you just as much as you need them.

kaiser, I think you have answered my question. See, I'm a volunteer Scouter just like you - Cubmaster for our Pack, Activities Chair for the District. But since I don't agree with your position on Professional Scouters, I must be one of "them" - one of the bad guys. The Professionals I know were very dedicated Scouts and volunteer Scouters before they became Professionals. They did not some how magically change when they went on the payroll. It is plain to me you have know idea a Council is run. I guess you, along with jkh, think the Council should be staffed solely with volunteers. Well, go ahead and volunteer to work an 8 hour day at the Scout shop, or answer the phones, or process Tour Permits, or process Summer Camp reservations.... What - you don't have an 8 hour day to donate? Who does??? The program cannot be run without salaried individuals. Just so I get this straight - the bad guys are the SE's, the DE's, the Executive Board members, anyone who draws a salary and gets a company car, and anyone who works at National. The good guys are the Scouters who only work at the unit level. Is that correct? What about your District leaders? The Committee Chair and District Commissioner - which side do they fall on?

Man, you have some real issues to deal with! Maybe you should move to France or some other socialistic country and try Scouting there. Again, if I were as unhappy with the program as you are, I would find something else to do with my time. This can not be good for your sanity - continuing to work with an organization that is causing so much angst in your life.

Come on, PS, be fair. "decent aquarium?" It's only the largest aquarium in the world! Very cool! The best I've seen, and I've seen a few around the world. You didn't mention Fernbank Museum, with the IMAX theater. The zoo isn't the greatest, but the Cyclorama is one of a kind! And the Braves don't lose all summer - they win then, but find a way to lose in September/October, when it really counts. You need to come visit Dunwoody, and see what can happen when you have a very strong Homeowners Association. All you need is strong leaders with a vision - gee, where have I heard that before?

jkh, I'm glad you've found another site to spew your drivel. Sounds like you've found some compratiots as well. I'm sure your group will have weeks and weeks of fun predicting the end of the BSA. Since you have all the answers, please answer this question. How does the BSA manage to take former Scouts and Scouters and turn them into evil, corporate, 6-figure salary henchmen, determined to destroy the very organization that was so good to them and their sons? Is it brainwashing? Chinese water torture? Mind-altering drugs? How do they do it? Is this done with help from the CIA? Most professional Scouters I know came up through Scouting as youths. Those that are old enough have sons that are in the program, or have been through it, often earning Eagle. Why would they ALL want to destroy the program, as you and your compatriots describe? When are they going to sell Philmont? What about Sea Base? Does this evil "destroy Scouting" mantra come down from National, or has each Council decided to do this on their own? What is the BSA going to do with all the funds once they have sold everthing off? Throw a big party? Go on a cruise?

kaiser, Since you have appointed yourself as determining who should and shouldn't be in Scouting, please list the name of any poster here who has advocated selling the property. Any other criteria you would like to make up to judge our worthiness on? Our Council owns several camps. The most popular one, Camp Woodruff, is not located in our Council - it is located in north Georgia, near the North Carolina border. Sometimes you have to think outside the box... If your one dedicated leader can't convince the others to vote in favor of Red Dog, then he will be out on Wednesday. Hard for me to imagine the board, made up of fellow Scouters, would vote to remove him unless there was some serious wrong-doing. I know I wouldn't. I've read the correspondence on the savecfe website. Some of it is pretty nasty. If your side thinks they are going to win any votes for Maynard by hurling insults at Council leadership, I'm afraid they are going to get just the opposite.

jkh, I don't know why I even bother trying to explain things to you. You are either incapable of understanding, or you don't want to understand. Yes, the numbers in Atlanta were incorrect, due to a number of issues. Mostly due to DE's forging numbers for their performance reviews. For the 99th time, the BSA does not track Scouts by race or income level. Even now, you cannot get a group to describe what is meant by "disadvantaged" youth. When the United Way asked for income and race numbers, the AAC told them they didn't collect that info. They came up with a plan to estimate those numbers based on census track data. Once they started digging into those numbers, they found some DE's, who are no longer employed at the AAC, were listing bogus numbers. Those bogus numbers have no impact on how our unit or the rest of the units in the AAC operate. IT simply does not affect us. The professional staff does not treat the volunteers like "employees". They treat us like they work for us. Yes, the situation you describe might as well be on Mars. The professional Scouters in the AAC are very courteous and very professional. They go out of their way to help us succeed. Sorry your experience hasn't been the same. Often times you get what you give.

Hey jkh - would you like some cheese with that whine? If you don't know what your SE and DE is doing, then you have no right to complain about what they are making! I am on the phone with my DE at least once a week. The list of things he helps me and our units with is too long to list. He is at every Roundtable, attends our Cub Aquatics and Day Camp. Helps plan the programs, set up schedules, etc... I can't imagine trying to run our programs without him. Maybe I'm just lucky with the staff we have. He is Wood Badge trained - we attended the same course. jkh - what have you asked your DE to do? How has he/she let you down? What requests have you made of the staff that has been neglected? I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer, since you can never answer a direct question. If you go into any business or organization meeting and start asking people what they make, in front of others, you are going to get a cold shoulder from all of them. There are some really good things happening in Scouting. Come on out in the sunshine - you might like it.

All I can say is the situation you describe might as well be on Mars. It certainly isn't the situation I see in Atlanta, nor anywhere else. A good friend of mine is now on the AAC Executive Board. He is 3 years older than me - around 45. He is a fraternity brother from Georgia Tech; I have known him for over 20 years. His son is an Eagle Scout, he has been to Philmont twice, is Wood Badge trained, and just received his Silver Beaver. He lives out at Sugarloaf Country Club, where the PGA is playing the Bell South Classic this weekend. According to you, this guy was hand-picked because he will go along with anything the SE wants, and is too busy to pay attention to what is going on with the Council. You couldn't be more wrong! This guy loves Scouting, and all it stands for. He has served as a leader at the unit level and District. He is now serving the Council. Does this sound like the kind of Executive Board member you are describing? I don't think so.

Am I the only one who read the following? "On March 21, Manatee County Commissioners voted 6-0 to change the county's future land-use map so that Camp Flying Eagle would be required to remain a recreational area, thus saving its use as a Boy Scout camp." Seems to me that ruling would take developers out of the equation. Who else is going to pay $12 million for property that must remain recreational? Hampton sounds pretty reasonable to me: "Hampton has steadfastly maintained that the council is not actively marketing the property but it does listen to offers; and if the price was right, the camp could be sold." So if someone came in and offered $20 million for a property worth, say, $15 million, they shouldn't sell? What if they were offered $50 million? $100 million? Bottom line is everything has a price, and to not listen to offers and consider options would be unreasonable. As for Red Dog, looks like he opted for a sledgehammer when a feather would have worked: "There were other ways, within the structure of the Boy Scouts, for Maynard to address his concerns over Camp Flying Eagle, Hampton said. "There is a process within the system that he could have followed to keep it from being sold," Hampton said. "Mr. Maynard went a direction that is inconsistent with being loyal to the scouting program as a whole." It would be interesting to know how much the "sledgehammer" approach cost the council to defend. There a two sides to every story. As with most posts from jkh, we are only hearing one side. Question: Do you think SE Hampton had the backing of his board before he made the decision to kick out Maynard? I'm guessing he did. So shouldn't the "Defend Maynard" crowd be asking for the entire executive board to resign, instead of just SE Hampton? All 52 of them? Could the actual situation be something like this? Old Sunny Land Council is a failure. Can't recruit new leaders or Scouts, can't manage to continue to be a going concern. Asks to merge with Southwest. Few vocal leaders from failed Sunny Land show up at new Council and ask for money to fix up Camp Flying Eagle, since they weren't able to do so on their own. When Southwest refuses to fund all their requests, old Sunny Landers consider Southwest the bad guys. "I don't know of a single Scout leader in Manatee County that has a favorable impression of the council office in Fort Myers," Hall said. "They just don't listen to Manatee County." Interesting. Final question: Why is the Manatee County seat on the executive board vacant, and why is their seat on the executive committee vacant? Can they not find volunteers to hold these positions? jkh - you may have long conversations with certain people in councils outside your own, like Atlanta, but the problem is you only listen to one side of the story and never seek out the other. Consequently, you miss out on the true situation. Your characterizations of the situation in Atlanta were so far off base they were laughable. If you were truly interested in serving the BSA, which you are not, you would search out both sides of the story, instead of just looking for those who support your side of the issue and your agenda.

SA, You must have missed this, so I will post it again. It is from Cleland's own book, about his Silver Star: "There were no heroics on which to base the Soldiers Medal,...and it had been my men who took care of the wounded during the rocket attack, not me. Some compassionate military men had obviously recommended me for the Silver Star, but I didnt deserve it." As for the ad, and his lost campaign, Rich Lowery called it pretty accuratly: "Cleland's undoing was that he couldn't negotiate the dilemma facing many Southern Democrats how to vote liberal in Washington while appearing conservative at home. The Democrat was on record supporting countless tax increases, and voted with his party's leadership against protecting the Boy Scouts from a campaign to keep them out of public schools and against banning partial-birth abortion. In many of these votes, he parted ways with his more conservative and popular colleague Miller, thus creating a major political vulnerability. He lost fair and square."

SA, The Republican Party did not question Cleland's patriotism. They pointed out his voting record after 9/11 and made the argument that he was not strong on defense. That is not questioning one's patriotism - it is questioning their judgement and priorities. GB, I am not discussing Tillman - there are many variables in the different situations which makes each unique. As for Cleland, it is hard to pin down exactly what happened during his military career. Some bios mention he was either Airborne, or attended Airborne training, or never mentions it. Others mention he was in AirCav. Here are two very different descriptions of the accident, one from Cleland, the other from the New Georgia Encyclopedia. ""On April 8, 1968, I volunteered for one last mission. The helicopter moved in low. The troops jumped out with M16 rifles in hand as we crouched low to the ground to avoid the helicopter blades. Then I saw the grenade. It was where the chopper had lifted off. It must be mine, I thought. Grenades had fallen off my web gear before. Shifting the M16 to my left hand and holding it behind me, I bent down to pick up the grenade. A blinding explosion threw me backwards." NGE: On April 8, 1968, as Cleland was returning to his barracks, a grenade was accidentally dropped. Cleland reacted quickly by falling upon it, no doubt saving the lives of several soldiers. He lost both his legs and his right hand in the explosion. Other accounts say he was on a mountain top, setting up a radio relay station, getting off a helicopter when it happened. Another says he was 15 miles behind enemy lines at the time. Which is true? Why all the confusion? I admire his ability to overcome his injuries and carry on. I don't know if I would be able to do the same. The bottom line is he lost his Senate seat because of his voting history, which was too far left for the majority of Georgians.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

LH, Do I make a distinction between soldiers or sailors killed while performing their routine duties, and soldiers who died after volunteering to go into a situation to help a fellow soldier, against uncountable odds, with little to no chance of survival, with no help on the way - knowing they are facing certain death - but do so because they think they can make a difference? Do I see a difference between the two? Yes. Our country does as well. Shughart and Gordon were awarded the Medal of Honor. I compare that to Cleland who was severly injured in an accident, but is described as "A former US army captain, who won the Silver Star after losing both legs and his right arm in Vietnam,..." and "Max Cleland is a guy who lost three limbs in Vietnam, left them on the battlefield, said Vietnam veteran and Senator John F. Kerry..." Take a look at Cleland's own words, from his own book. "There were no heroics on which to base the Soldiers Medal,...and it had been my men who took care of the wounded during the rocket attack, not me. Some compassionate military men had obviously recommended me for the Silver Star, but I didnt deserve it." "I was not entitled to the Purple Heart either, since I was not wounded by enemy action." Do I see a difference between Shughart & Gordon, and Cleland? Yes, I do.

Nope, never said that. Please do not put words in my mouth. I said I personally do not think Cleland is a war hero. His defenders and campaign staff have used his military service as a huge shield to defend against any attacks on his voting record. They have implied that he was wounded in battle, which is simply not the truth. I am grateful for his service to our country, but I am tired of seeing this false story thrown around. When I think of war heros, I think of soldiers like Randy Shughart and Gary Gordon.