BrentAllen

packsaddle, Do you drive a Dodge? I didn't ask if he was a criminal - I asked what you would do if you found the pictures on his computer? Would you turn him in? He wasn't a threat to the boys, he wasn't anywhere near them. Those gay leaders can't even be honest with themselves. How can they expect others to be honest with them? I don't expect you to turn them in - I expect them to do the honorable thing and get out of Scouting. Are gays allowed in Scouting? No. Do they know this? Yes. If a Scout steals a knife and is never asked about it, does that make him any less dishonest or untrustworthy? A gay man knows gays are not allowed in the program but joins anyway. Yes, that makes him dishonest in my book.

I have a problem with misrepresentation. If Bush allowed the expansion of the publicly funded stem cell line, those scientists and doctors would probably leave anyway. Money talks. "Lavish salaries and lofty titles have helped Singapore staff Biopolis with a roster of foreign luminaries." As for the objection to the process, you write "Embryos would not be harmed and the cells used would be those taken anyway for other tests." Funny, in the opinion piece, I read they are "using a process that should leave the embryo unharmed" Should leave? Sounds a lot different than "would not". "Those who are afraid of the outcome of this research..." Who is afraid of the outcome? Conservatives? I never knew we were afraid of the outcome. I think conservatives are just realistic about the possibilities. Speaking of that, please tell us when these miracles are going to start? Maybe we should consult John Edwards.

Merlyn can tap dance with the best of them! "I pointed out that people "defending" marriage by denying it to gays (and pointing out that "gays can still get married") are encouraging sham marriages." "Sure there is; he's a politician. Being a "family man" gets votes." Sounds to me like society in general is encouraging sham marriages, not just those defending traditional marriage. True? packsaddle writes: "The individuals I am aware of who happen to be gay leaders - are good leaders..." I guess they just ignore the first part of the Scout Law - the one about being trustworthy? And the Scout Oath? Yeah, those are the kind of "good" leaders I want for my son. Were my questions about Douglas Smith too difficult for you?

My comprehension skills are fine. Your arguments just don't make any sense. "...if James McGreevey could have married a man in a society that accepts gay marriage, he wouldn't have entered into a sham marriage with her..." "I pointed out that people "defending" marriage by denying it to gays (and pointing out that "gays can still get married") are encouraging sham marriages." How, exactly, are we encouraging sham marriages? There was no reason for McGreevey to ever get married. How did we encourage him to marry? Specifically? Why couldn't he have just stayed single? Why did he decide to marry a woman he didn't love (twice!) in a sham marriage, instead of just staying single? Somehow, this is the fault of those defending traditional marriage? "In the McGreevey case, he probably felt that as a politician, being married would improve his chances at getting elected." You mean in liberal, open-minded, free-thinking New Jersey, the voters would prefer a married heterosexual over a single gay man - all other issues being the same? Wow! After all this, I have a new reason why gays shouldn't be in Scouting - they aren't honest! They aren't honest with themselves (in the closet) or with others (sham marriages, getting married just to get elected to office). Thanks for pointing that out, Merlyn.

Merlyn, Excuse me, but what a load of crap! Defending marriage forces gays in to sham marriages?!?! What law says anyone must get married?? My observation is gays enter into sham marriages to hide their homosexuality. If gays were allowed to marry, you are saying all those hiding in sham marriage would suddenly come out of the closet?? You've got to be kidding! As for Douglas Smith, I want to know what packsaddle would have done if he had somehow found the pictures on Smith's computer. Since Smith wasn't involved with boys, and therefore wasn't a threat to them, what would he have done? Turn Smith in, or look the other way? packsaddle has admitted he chooses his own judgement over the governing rules - would he have done the same with Smith? Would he not mind knowing there were pedophiles in Scouting, and just said "tough luck?"(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

packsaddle, Douglas Smith posed no risk whatsoever to the boys in Scouting, in his administrative position. Are you arguing he should have been allowed to remain in Scouting?

packsaddle, I think CNN has a job waiting for you - Director of Drive-By Media. Your summary of that article shows you have the required skills in taking any news article and turning it into an anti-Bush rant. "Lavish salaries and lofty titles have helped Singapore staff Biopolis with a roster of foreign luminaries." "Singapore officials say they have spent 1.5 billion Singapore dollars ($949 million) on biotechnology since 2000 and have budgeted another 1.44 billion Singapore dollars more over the next five years to finance development of new therapies and drugs. That is not much compared with the approximately $27 billion the National Institutes of Health spends each year. But it is spread among a much smaller crowd. While scientists working for government research institutions here say they are warned not to talk about money, they readily acknowledge that Singapores salaries exceed those they can earn in the United States." Do you think any medical break-throughs in that country will not reach our shores? Maybe you should have titled this thread "Anyone remember Sony?" We are just seeing the same thing that happened in the electronics industry. Can you not purchase any of the latest electronics developed in Japan? This is an economic growth and industry issue for Singapore, but you have tried to spin it as another anti-Bush issue. I am starting to detect bits of foam in your posts; you might be rabid.

Oh, that is priceless, Merlyn! You are going to argue that McGreevey wanted to be MARRIED so badly, that he was willing to marry a woman, even though he didn't love her. In fact, he was so enamoured with MARRIAGE that he entered into marriage contracts twice, even though he was only interested in men, and didn't love the women at all (and had children with both women). Is that why he was in sham marriages - he just loved the married life so much? If not, then why didn't he just live with another man, as do most other homosexual couples? That is just too cute - McGreevey married a woman because he couldn't marry a man! ROFLMAO!

I wonder if Dina McGreevey, wife of James McGreevey, considers herself a victim of homosexuality? deviant - other than the norm. Are you now arguing that homosexuality is the norm? If not, it is deviant.

"They called the parents of all the boy who were going and not one of them would volunteer to drive a few boys (only needed room for 3 additional boys) 30 minutes from town. Sounds to me like y'all are running a free baby sitting service, not a Scout Troop. Time to let those parents know that is not the case, and if they can't lend a hand, their boys don't participate.

"I didn't mean to suggest that "National" should change the program but should have said "give us ideas to improve the delivery of the program". We have Troops in our council that do a really good job presenting the Scouting program and they are booming, but are few and far between." I didn't realize that is what National was supposed to do. Given the above, I can probably guess who is attending Roundtables, and who isn't. Sounds to me like you have real problems at the District level, which must be fixed locally. National can't come in and suddenly make Scouters go to training or attend Roundtable or attend Scouters Academy. I we (my family) owned three vacation properties, and ran into some financial difficulties, what would we do? If we had only visited one of those properties a few times, it would be the first to go. Sure, not a direct comparison, but pretty close.

So, packsaddle, let me get this straight (pun, ha ha!) - you have friend who is gay.... ;^)

"Not being able to marry someone of the same gender does prevent someone from benefiting from the institution of marriage because a gay person is NOT going to fall in love with and marry someone of the opposite gender, no matter what." I suggest you read up on the former Governor of New Jersey. He is in his second marriage. http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/12/mcgreevey.nj/ "They are owned by humans and have slave status." My cats are free to leave my house any time they want. I open the door, but they choose to stay. In some states, I think pets would fall under Common Law marriage definitions more so than slavery. What work are they performing?? There are plenty of people out there who want to marry their pets - they certainly don't think it is silly. You are just a bigot!! Hah! So Dan, if polygamy is made legal, and your wife decides she wants two husbands, you aren't going to have a problem with that?

I love fireworks! Oooooooh! Aaaaaaaah! I can't wait for the change in the legal definition of marriage to be "to someone you love." Bring on polygamy! Can't you just see some guys walking around with 5 or 6 wives! Or a woman walking around with group of men! I hope none get jealous - I think we have the possibilities of a tremendous jump in domestic violence. Talk about some fireworks! One question - if a gay man (Man A) marries several different men, will those men also be able to marry other men married to Man A? What about a group of women all married to the same man? Will they be able to marry the other wives of that man? Could they also be married to someone totally outside the group? This could get very confusing! The lawyers are going to make a fortune at divorces! Then it will be changed to "something you love." Imagine the social parties - "this is my wife, Lucy. She is a seal point siamese. Isn't she beautiful!" And talk about unintended consequences - with those large families, how are we ever going to get away from SUV's?? SUV's won't do - we are going to need buses! Look, more fireworks! Yeah!(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Y'all are getting worked up over nothing, I think. I'm 6' tall and 34" waist. I wear 34" traditional shorts, which just reach the top of my knee cap. In the switchbacks, I wear a Medium, 32" inseam. The shorts reach a point approximately 2" above my knee cap. That photo on the web page is probably of a pair of youth, XS, which makes them look very short. No one in their right mind would consider these "short-shorts" or "Daisy Dukes". The inseams do run on the long side. I wear 34" inseams in some pants, but can't in the switchbacks - they would be way too long. I'm pleased with mine!

We just completed our Pack recruiting - I think it was a success. For perspective, we had 92 boys in the Pack last year after recruiting. 12 crossed over. 8 did not return (moved, lack of interest, etc...). So we had 72 returning. I expected to pick up around 25 or so new Scouts, with most being Tigers. We ended up with 54 new Scouts, including 36 Tigers, 10 Wolfs, 3 Bears, 4 Webelos I, and 1 Webelos II. 126 total. We'll see how many stick and finish the year in May. BTW, our dues are $75, which covers national registration, BL subscription, PWD car, catered B & G banquet, rank award, cross over neckerchief and Pack programs.

Chippewa, I understand what you are saying - try to recruit for long-term quality, not just quantity. I have gone through something similar with recruiting for our Pack. I used to try to recruit as many boys as I could, really wishing every boy would join and enjoy Scouts. The fact is some just aren't cut out for Scouts, and getting them to join is a huge waste of their time and mine. I now tell parents that if their son plays sports all year long (football, basketball, baseball) and they are going to miss over half the meetings and activities, don't sign up. They aren't going to get anything meaningful from the program. I would suggest you try something like EagleInKY mentioned - let them "visit" for a few meetings and a campout before they officially join and get assigned to a patrol. Let them know once they join, they are part of a team, which is counting on him to be there. Most of us test-drive a car before we buy it. :-)

From http://members.cox.net/scouting179/Eagle%20Famous.htm FAMOUS EAGLE SCOUTS: NAME EAGLE CLASS NOTEWORTHY ACCOMPLISHMENTS Neil Armstrong 1947 astronaut, first man on moon - commander of Apollo 11's lunar module, from Wapakoneta, OH; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Albert Belle c. 1982 outfielder, Chicago White Sox William 'Bill' W. Bradley 1957 Pro basketball star, NY Knicks and US Senator from New Jersey, US Presidential candidate; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient James S. Brady 1955 Press Secretary to President Reagan; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Roger B. Chaffee c. 1951 Astronaut, died in the Apollo 1 launch pad fire George Thomas Coker 1959 Vietnam-era POW, held in "Hanoi Hilton" and other camps for 6 1/2 years (1966-1973), briefly escaped in 1970, regarded as a leader among his fellow POWs, Bombadier/Navigator in an A6 Intruder, retired as a Navy Commander, an OA Vigil member, still active in Scouting in Tidewater Council BSA as of 2005. Commander of local POW Association in 2005. Says that the values he learned in Scouting are one of the things that helped him get through his time as a POW - made Eagle in Linden, NJ; (approved May 2005) DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient, resides in Tidewater Council Richard O. Covey 1960 President of Boeing Service Company, USAF Academy graduate, COL in USAF, flew 339 combat missions in Vietnam, astronaut who flew 4 shuttle missions, awarded 5 Distinguished Flying Crosses, father Charles D. Covey is an Eagle too, appeared on one episode of "Home Improvement" with fellow Eagle Scout Ken Bowersox; (awarded in 2005) DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient William C. Devries c. 1959 MD, surgeon and educator, transplanted first artificial heart Arthur Rose Eldred 1912 First Eagle Scout, Aug 21st, 1912 Robert E. Femoyer c. 1940 One of only three known Eagle Scouts who also received the Congressional Medal of Honor (others are Fluckey and Paige). During World War II he enlisted in the Army Air Force and is the only navigator awarded the Medal of Honor. On a bombing mission over Germany, he was wounded by enemy aircraft fire, which seriously damaged his B-17 bomber. In spite of extreme pain and great loss of blood he refused morphine in order to keep his mental faculties clear. For two and half-hours he guided the lone bomber through six changes in course around enemy antiaircraft concentrations. Bleeding steadily he worked with amazing clarity despite pain described as "almost beyond the realm of human endurance". As the crippled aircraft crossed safely over the English Channel, 2nd Lieutenant Robert Femoyer finally allowed an injection of morphine. Thirty minutes after landing he died of wounds. Gene Fluckey c. 1920 One of only three known Eagle Scouts who also received the Congressional Medal of Honor (others are Femoyer and Paige). REAR ADMIRAL, US Navy. Also received 4 Navy crosses while a submarine officer in WWII. While Commanding Officer of the USS Barb in WWII, his sub sank more Japanese vessels than any other sub in WWII. He developed several innovative tactics during the war. For a what was the only US commando mission on one of the home Japanese islands during the war, one of the requirements was that half the men had to have been Boy Scouts as he knew they knew how to handles themselves in the woods and could navigate to the target via land and handle any emergency. Gerald Rudolf Ford 1927 U.S. Vice President & 38th President (1st Eagle to be Pres.), "Junior" Ford of Troop 15, Grand Rapids, MI, 26 MBs--including Civics, "Boy Scouts was invaluable in shaping my life."; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient J. Steven Fossett 1957 Crossed the Earth solo on 6th attempt in a hot air ballon, won the Chicago to Mackinaw boat races, competed in the Iditorad dog race, and competed in several iron man triathlons, and among other things lives the Scouting mottos both Cub and Boy Scout by doing his best and being prepared; on 03 Mar 2005 - first nonstop, solo, non-refueling plane circumnavigation of the world; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient William Denby Hanna 1924 Eagle at age 14, animator and producer, is the Hanna in Hanna-Barbera Cartoons, died in 2001; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient J. D. Hayworth c. 1974 US Representative from Arizona, fought the 2004 ACLU-forced DOD decision for military bases not to sponsor BSA units Alexander Holsinger c. 1980 Of Normal, Ill. Became the One Millionth Eagle Scout Alfred Kinsey, Dr. c. 1912 insect biologist, human behavior researcher Howard Charles Lincoln 1955 Seattle Mariners baseball team, Chairman and CEO; posed for Rockwell's painting "The Scoutmaste"; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient James Arthur Lovell, Jr. 1943 Career Navy pilot and astronaut. President of NESA. Flew on Gemini 7, 12 & Apollo 8, 13. Apollo 13 Mission Commander. Business executive; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient John Willard Marriott, Jr. 1947 President and Chairman of the Board, Marriott Corp.; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient William McCool Space Shuttle Columbia Pilot who died upon reentry 01 Feb 2003 Jim Mora 1950 Head Coach, New Orleans Saints and Indianapolis Colts. Son Jim Jr. was Asst. Coach of the New Orleans Saints and San Francisco 49ers football teams and head coach of the Atlanta Falcons; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Jay North 1928 Author of Superman Ellison S. Onizuka 1964 Astronaut who perished aboard the space shuttle Challenger Steven S. Oswald 1967 Astronaut, Navy Rear Admiral; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Mitchell Paige 1936 One of only three known Eagle Scouts who also received the Congressional Medal of Honor (others are Femoyer and Fluckey). Walked 200 miles to enlist in Marines on 18th birthday in 1936, retired as Colonel, received Medal Of Honor for combat action on Guadalcanal in 1942 as a platoon sergeant. Investigated fake Medal of Honor recipients. Eagle awarded/presented on 24 March 2003 after being verified because he'd not received it in 1936 because he'd gone off to join the Marines. Died November 17, 2003.; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Henry Ross Perot 1943 self-made billionaire and U.S. Presidential candidate, founder of Reform Party, Electronic Data Systems Corp., and The Perot Group; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient James D. Rogers 1965 CEO of Kampgrounds of America; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Donald H. Rumsfeld 1949 US Secretary of Defense under two US Presidents; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Robert Lee Scott, Jr. 1923 WWII fighter pilot ace with the Flying Tigers; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient William S. Sessions 1947 former FBI director; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Paul Siple c. 1925 Sea Scout too; accompanied Commander Byrd on expedition to Antarctica, 1928; invented the Wind Chill factor Steven Spielberg 1961 Movie producer and director, from Scottsdale, AZ, made a movie of his troop while getting Photography MB; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient John Tesh c. 1967 TV celebrity, singer, pianist, and radio talk show host Richard H. Truly 1952 Astronaut, Sky Lab, Apollo-Soyuez; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Samuel Moore Walton 1934 Businessman, Retailer, Chairman and CEO of Walmart; Eagle Scout at age 13, died prior to 2000; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient William Childs Westmoreland 1930 General; Commander U.S. forces, Vietnam War; DISTINGUISHED EAGLE SCOUT AWARD recipient Jim Whittaker c. 1945 First American to scale Mount Everest, 01 May 1963; led first American ascent of K2, the 2nd highest mountain on Earth; part of many other mountain expeditions; president and CEO of Recreational Equipment Inc (REI) FAMOUS/NOTABLE SCOUTS, but not Eagles: Jimmy Buffett musician and singer William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton Cub Scout, U. S. President Watler Cronkite Scout, but NOT an Eagle as reported by some-verified with NESA; Journalist, anchorman and commentator for CBS News Jack Elam actor, was blinded in the left eye (hence his 'wandering' eye) by a pen during a scuffle at a Troop meeting Harrison Ford Life Scout, taught Reptile Study, actor - played "Indiana Jones" Bill Gates Life Scout, founder of Microsoft Corporation Dan Jansen Olympic Gold Medal-Speed Skating, 1994 Olympics, Lillihammer Bruce Jenner Olympic Decathlete, Gold Medalist Michael Jordan Cub Scout, pro basketball player with the NBA, NBA Hall Of Fame member John Fitzgerald Kennedy Star Scout, first US President who was a Scout Branford Marsalis Life Scout, Jazz Musician Norm Mineta - Japanese-American, spent WWII as a Boy Scout in an internment camp in Wyoming, where he met Alan Simpson, who was a Boy Scout in a troop in Cody, WY that made visits to their fellow Scouts in the camp. Norm later became mayor of San Jose, CA; a member of the US Congress, and later a Democratic Cabinet member (Sec. of Transportation) of Republican Pres. George W. Bush in 2001-2004. Also see Alan Simpson, who was a long time friend of Norm's. Ronald Wilson Reagan not sure if he was a Scout as a youth, BUT......40th U. S.President, became involved in Scouting with the Golden Empire Council in Sacramento, Calif., while serving as governor of the state. During his 8 years in office, he chaired Project SOAR (Save Our American Resources), served as membership roundup chairman, participated in annual Report to the Governor ceremonies, and served on the council's advisory board. For his service to youth, he was awarded the Silver Beaver Award. As a member of the Los Angeles Area Council, he served as Scoutorama chairman, as a speaker for the council recognition dinner, and as a sustaining member. Richard Roundtree actor - "Shaft" Nolan Ryan Professional baseball player Alan Simpson member of a troop in Cody, WY in WWII that visited fellow Scouts in a Japanese-American internment camp near Cody, where he met Norm Mineta, who was a long time friend. Alan became a Republican Senator from WY and helped Norm pass the Japanese-American Compensation Act. This story appeared in the Jan-Feb 2002 issue of Scouting Magazine. Mark Spitz Seven Gold Medals-Swimming, 1972 Munich Olympic Games James "Jimmy" Maitland Stewart Scout, but NOT an Eagle as reported by some-verified with NESA; actor, nominated for 4 Oscars, won one, USAF Brigadier General (mostly reserves), B-17 pilot over Europe in WWII, worked with Scouting as an adult Joe Theisman Life Scout, former NFL quarterback - Washington Redskins, sportscaster John Warner US Senator from Virginia, WWII and Korean War veteran

I now own a Taurus 4 AL tent and their 10x25 awning. I'm very pleased with the quality vs. cost. You can read my thoughts on the awning, after using it our Day Camp for a week - it worked extremely well. http://www.scoutdirect.com/tents.htm The NOAC deal is very good! (ends 8/31/06). This is not North Face or Western Mountaineering type gear. It is more suited to Boy Scout camping. For the price, it is very hard to beat.

August 24th is what I have heard as well. Our shop cleared a rack for them back on August 1st, thinking they were coming in then. I guess I can wait a few more weeks...

My copy of the book arrived this morning. I have flipped through it twice, and I can already tell this is an excellent book! The back cover claims "The perfect book for every boy from eight to eighty." - I have to agree! I wish I had a copy when I was eight. There is so much in the book, it covers everything from famous battles to grammer lessons. This is a British book, so when they discuss trees or insects or fishing, they are covering the British versions, which are different from those found in the US. Same with maps and history - almost all British. But don't let that stop you from purchasing - there is plenty of material that appeals to boys on both sides of the big pond! I heartily recommend. (took a little over a week to arrive)

Joebanker, Thanks for your succinct answer. No, I am not employed by the AAC, but I do have several very good friends who work there. It is obvious that you have not been to Woodruff in a number of years. It is also obvious that you have a bone to pick with the Council, for reasons unknown. Finally, thank you for taking only 3 posts to make it so easy for us all to determine your reputation and credibility.

There is nothing dishonest about the BSA copyrighting their name. The WOSM cannot come into the US and tell us we must allow other groups to use the word "Scout" or "Scouting." This is a matter of US law. The WOSM recognizes only one Scout organization per country. A country can have more than one Scout group, but only one is recognized.

I grew up in a Troop that limited membership - 40 boys, 5 patrols of 8. I never knew that was the situation when I was in the Troop. I don't think it was really discussed with the boys - it was discussed with the parents. We had a waiting list of boys wanting to get in. If a Scout stopped attending, he (or his parents) was/were asked if he wanted to come back, or give up his spot. This system made membership a little more valuable. My memory is that we had pretty good attendance at our events. The boys never voted on who would be in their patrols - the adults just assigned the new Scouts to fill holes and balance them. I don't think allowing the boys to vote would be a good idea. The adults limited the membership to a size they thought was workable, and they could equip. I played a lot of baseball growing up, and there was many a campout we would head out and set up camp Friday night and stay until Saturday afternoon. We then drove back to town for an evening baseball game, and afterwards drove back to camp. My father was always either CC or ASM and was very involved, so he didn't mind. I was pretty fortunate.

Eamonn, Was this the Saturday they were supposed to get paid? Did everyone else get paid yesterday? Hard to tell from your post. Maybe there was some other legitimate reason they couldn't be paid? Speaking as someone who has difficulties dealing with these type situations from time to time, I often have to pull that Wood Badge challenge coin our of my pocket and remind myself - treat others as you wish to be treated & it's your move. Or forgive & forget. Or act like a duck and let it run off your back. If the boys really enjoy working at camp, don't let this one incident ruin their fun. If everyone else was paid yesterday, it was a bad example not to pay the boys. Maybe this is an opportunity to show they can rise above the situation? If the R/D did this to show his displeasure, the boys getting mad only plays into his hands - he gets what he was after. If they come back and act like it didn't bother them, hopefully the R/D will see his actions were petty and childish.