BrentAllen

So, you are highly suspect of Baldwin because he is president of a conservative group, but not suspect of Herek, who is an advocate for homosexuality? Interesting... I haven't read all the studies, and I'm not sure I need to. The literature provided, using the publication's and author's own words against them, is pretty damning. Now, if you want to argue that only a small % of the homosexual community subscribe to and read those publications, then you might have a valid argument against Baldwin. It would be interesting to see how popular those publications are.

Gunny, Being that you served in the military, I can understand your point of view. Let me try to give you another. Back when I shot competitive high power, the anti-gunners would claim that clubs holding high power matches were really militia groups, training radicals to take over the country. There wasn't a shred of truth in that claim. Still, we politely asked those competing not to wear camos, if possible. We didn't want to give the anti's any fuel for their propoganda. Similarly, Scouting still faces charges from time to time that we are either a para-military group, or just a training and recruiting ground for the military. We politely ask Scouts and Scouters to avoid camo so we don't give our enemies something to talk about. As for the military and Scouting, B-P said: "Our aim is to make backwoodsmen of Scouts, not imitation soldiers." "We have no military aim or practice in our Movement." "Military training and discipline are exactly the opposite of what we inculcate in the Scout Movement." From the very beginning, B-P had to fight charges from liberals that Scouting was just a program to prepare boys for the military. The original uniform was derived from the South African Constabulary, not the British military.

"This is what separates the crazies from the praticals... " No, this is what separates the Scouts from the psuedo-Scouts. If you are only meeting once a month, why even bother? My guess is these leaders never go to any training, and don't even own a copy of the Cub Scout Leader Book. When I became Cubmaster, we started requiring the boys to wear the complete, correct uniform - pants, socks, neckerchiefs. It was horrible! Our Pack went from 70 boys to 140 in just 3 years! I'm sure they are scarred for life!

awesome1, We all have to make choices, and live with those choices. That boy has made the choice that other things are more important than Scouting, and that is fine. In my book, he has made the choice to give up Scouting, and his chance at earning Eagle. Regardless of any other interpretation, the first requirement for Eagle is be active in our troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Life Scout, with a reference to page 169. Page 169 states "To gain full advantage of all that Scouting has to offer, you need to be present when things are happening. Take part in meetings, in planning activities, and in the fun adventures. If you're there, you can do your part to make your patrol and troop a success." This boy is not meeting any of that description. He has shown that he doesn't have time for Scouting. How can he earn a rank in Scouting if he doesn't have time for Scouting? All those other activities are great, but they aren't Scouting. Are you going to give an Eagle to others who are in this boy's youth group at church and volunteer at the animal shelter and HH? Eagle was described in the first Boy Scout Handbook as "the all-round perfect scout", a definition I think that still applies. Does this definition apply to this boy? If all your other scouts showed up as little as he did, would you be happy?

If you don't have copies, order these through ScoutStuff.org Pretty good info. They might have it at your Scout Shop as well. Okpik: Cold-Weather Camping http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?ctlg=05NDC&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=BOOKS_LIT&c3=BCAMPING&c4=&lv=3&item=34040

Dan, Get back in your chair and read away. http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/academics/lawreview/articles/14_2Baldwin.doc

"no sex at campouts" Yeah, put that in the Troop By-Laws! :-) I thought I heard somewhere that we should praise in public, reprimand in private. Should that apply to the Scouters as well?

I don't think that because a Troop loses an appeal, it makes them look like an Ass in every case. I know a very experienced SM who runs a great Troop. The SPL has the boys doing push-ups if they are acting up, or are late or out of uniform. The SM will assign "Idle Time" projects to boys that get sent to him for misbehaviour. He told me that, yes, he would lose an appeal to National on those issues, but the boys in his Troop would never appeal. They accept it all as part of the program, a program they are all very happy to be a part of.

"It's not the Insignia Guide which spells out the rules and regulations that the paragraph you quote is talkin' about. Da paragraph refers to the major uniform features adopted by the National Exec. Board. That's a different thing, eh?" So, Beavah, if that paragraph isn't addressed to us volunteer Scouters, then why is it included in the Insignia Guide? You say your interpretation is due to context, but I say the context is the fact that it is included in the Insignia Guide. You say policy isn't the same as Rules and Regulations. I argue the policy is important enough that the organization produces a very detailed Insignia Guide, encourages inspections and defines the official uniform on page 12 of the Boy Scout Handbook. I can't find any language that says Scouts are authorized to wear any other pants as part of the uniform. Please show me where anything other than the official uniform or activity uniform is either described or authorized. Insignia Guide, page 1: The Rules and Regulations and policy. The following pages contain our uniform policy as taken from the Rules and Regulations of the BSA. The chapters contain applications of the regulations to each program area. Neither the Rules and Regulations of the BSA, the policy, nor the program applications may be added to or changed in any way unless approved by the National Executive Board of the BSA through its Program Group Committee.

tj, I believe I read that the UMM actually presented a friends of the court brief on behalf of the Scouts in the Dale case. The United Methodist social action agency, the Board of Church and Society, urged the Supreme Court to rule against the Boy Scouts. In the Stroud case, the UMC more precisely defined the church's position on the gay issue, and continued to move in a more conservative direction. When one's religion teaches that homosexuality is immoral, it doesn't matter how familiar you are with the issue - the members of that religion will still see it as immoral. It isn't prejudice, it is religious belief.

OGE, That is exactly my idea of Scouting, and describes the troop I grew up in. The SM and other leaders had a sincere interest in us as individuals. Our troop was really like a big family, in many ways. It is much easier to coach and counsel the boys when they really trust you and know you have their best interest at heart. Didn't we learn something like that in Wood Badge? :-)

We don't really plan on having any written by-laws to cover the subjects in this thread. I do plan on letting new Scouts know what our expectations are, through an interview process. Hopefully that will head off the need for any by-laws. I think if the boys are given a clear understanding of the expectations, there won't be any need for by-laws. Those expectations then just become part of the Troop culture, and are passed down by the boys to the next generation. One has to understand that definition from National is aimed at keeping boys on the rolls and membership up. I would ask anyone who believes that is the only expectation they need to set in their Troop for "active" Scouts to please explain how that defines "active" in the boy's patrol. A Scout is active in his patrol simply because he has paid his dues? I wonder what his PL and other patrol members would have to say about that?

GaHillBilly, Come on up to Dunwoody, you are welcome to join us. :-) If I could have anything tatoo'd on the back of my eyelids, it would be KIS, MIF. Keep it simple, Make it fun. I used to be bad about getting wrapped around the axel coming up with plans for Pack meetings - they were way too complicated, way too involved. The KIS, MIF attitude is also helping direct the boys in our new Troop. I introduced the boys to the old game called Spud, which I found in a 1959 SM Handbook. Very simple rules, but challenging and lots of fun, according to them. They want to play it at every meeting! Fun does not mean just goof off - it's the exact opposite. Have fun while going through the activities. If the boys aren't having fun (meaning enjoying what they are doing), they are going to vote with their feet. It has been my experience the boys enjoy a good challenge, even more so than just goofing off with their buddies. When describing the type of program I want to build, two words come to mind - challenging and rewarding. 2. The gang of boys is a good plan. The problem is, do those boys, who are usually the same age, stay together forever? Or do you move younger boys into those patrols, so the older boys can teach the younger ones? I had an old SM tell me that in his troop, once a boy was PL, the boy moved out of that patrol into either a JLC or other leadership position. He felt the boys didn't like being a regular patrol member after being the leader. I spend a lot of time thinking about that method. I think that bonding comes from experiences shared together. Ask an adult who was a Scout about the camping trips he remembers, and the strongest memories are usually from the most challenging trips - bad weather, long hikes, etc. The teams come together when they really have to rely on each other. Having patrol competitions where you put the boys in the pressure cooker helps to build that bond and patrol identity. This is a big part of the program that I think many Troops don't understand and miss out on. 3. I don't think that is the case, if the troop has trained leaders and they insist on new leaders coming up from the Pack get trained. 4. Advancement is one of the Methods, and should be included in the program. I've always been taught it is the Troop's responsibility to get the boys to First Class, and then it is up to the boy to DECIDE how far he wants to go after that. That does not mean it is soley up to the boy to get there. The SM should discuss advancement with the new FC Scout and set goals, based on the boy's desires. Advancement has a lot to offer. Leadership, exposure to professions and hobbies. The story is told that Spielberg developed his interest in film after earning Cinematography Merit Badge. Boys like to be praised for their accomplishments - advancement and the MB program provides plenty of opportunities to do that. Since only 5% of Scouts make Eagle, it is obviously not the main goal of Scouting. I see Eagle as being the place you end up at if you have done everything else right. Being Eagle to me means having developed leadership, gained maturity through the trials and tribulations of many nights on the trail, and being well rounded from all the experiences from earning the Merit Badges. Unfortunately, many 14 year old Eagles think they have reached the end of the trail, and they leave Scouting. They have just reached the age where they can attend Philmont, and they disappear! Scouters need to make sure the boys aren't programmed to think Eagle is the end and they are done with Scouting. Reaching Eagle is a new beginning. Good luck with your search for a new Troop.

Trev, Bad news! "Report: Primates in Danger of Extinction" BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) - Almost a third of all apes, monkeys and other primates are in danger of extinction because of rampant habitat destruction, the commercial sale of their meat and the trade in illegal wildlife, a report released Friday said... At least it isn't global warming causing their decline. Man, I'm glad my ancestors evolved!

To answer the question, you first have to ask the parents what they want out of Scouting for their son. Why are they putting their son in Scouting. If you hear answers that are based on the Aims and Methods, then you ask, how are you going to achieve those goals if their son doesn't attend? If he isn't at Troop meetings or campouts, how do the parents expect Scouting to work to achieve their goals? We set the expectation of 100% attendance. We don't get 100% but we get pretty close. We let them know they will learn something new at each meeting and outing, and have a lot of fun. If you miss an event, you miss a lot! Our boys play football, basketball, soccer, take martial arts and participate in academic bowls. We let the boys and the parents know the boys have an obligation to their patrol members and the Troop, just as they have an obligation to their team mates on a sports team. Leadership is learned in the patrol, and if the boys don't show up, the lessons aren't going to happen. Constantly forming ad hoc patrols is no way to learn leadership and team building. When we crossed over last March, the Troops we visited typically had somewhere between 40 - 60% attendance. The Troop we joined was closer to 40%, with just over 70 boys on the rolls. I don't think we ever had more than 60% attendance at any meeting. First campout after cross over was the district camporee. The Troop had around 50% attendance, our new boys were 100%. Next campout was a backpacking trip on the Appalachian Trail. Out of 72 boys, 6 attended. This was supposedly a trip selected and scheduled by the Troop - boy run, yeah, right. Since our new boys weren't ready for that type of trip, I set up another trip that same weekend to Chickamauga Battlefield. We had 100% attendance for our new boys. June camping trip was canceled due to lack of leadership. The Troop did have good attendance at summer camp, where 50 boys participated (100% for our new boys). No trip in August (as well as no meetings). Next trip was funyaks whitewater rafting, limited to 18 boys. They couldn't fill all the spots. We left to start our own Troop at this point. We have 6 boys, and their attendance at camping trips and meetings has been very good. Going back to the first of April, these are the %'s for attendance at Troop meetings, campouts, service projects and patrol meetings (18 events): Scout 1 - 100% Scout 2 - 83% Scout 3 - 100% Scout 4 - 78% Scout 5 - 89% Scout 6 - 94% If a Scout is going to miss a meeting, he is instructed to call his PL and let him know. If he doesn't, the PL calls him and tells him he was missed and asks him to call next time. If a Scout misses 4 meetings without notifying his PL, I (SM) will call and find out what's going on. (A Scout is Courteous) If a Scout has a long-term conflict (sports season), he needs to let me know. I have no problem with that, but he will not be able to hold a leadership position while absent. We have the Scribe take attendance at each meeting. When we grow and have multiple patrols, we will use attendance and uniforming as part of an Honor Patrol competition. I realize boys will have other interests - I hope they do. Troops brag that they are very accomodating, but I see it as they have low expectations and don't fully appreciate the Patrol Method. I see Troops with poor attendance mainly due to a low expectation. The boys are not made to feel they have an obligation to the troop and patrol. They are just told to show up when they can or want to. AKA a social camping club. If you don't set a high expectation for attendance, you most likely aren't going to get high attendance. Our goal is to instill in our boys the belief that Scouting is not just something you do one night a week; Scouting is a way of life.

Trev, Sure - because God likes monkeys. He didn't want them all to evolve into humans and disappear. Also, in case man evolved too far and decided he was better than God, or that God didn't matter anymore, God could remove man from the face of the earth and start over again with the remaining monkeys. I guess athiests would have a different answer. (jingle, jingle)

But Trev, you don't believe in that antiquated idea that a marriage is just between one man and one woman, do you? Surely, you have evolved beyond that! But wait - what about HPV, Herpes, and AIDS? Maybe standing firm and believing in some principals is the right thing to do! Man, this whole life thing sure is confusing. If Darwin was correct, why are there still monkeys but no dinosaurs? How come those monkeys didn't evolve along with the rest of us? eric, were you directing the 10 Commandments issue to me? My earlier comment was not in response to your post - it was addressed to Ed.

Come on Ed, get with the program! Those 10 Commandments aren't something we should stand firm on - we should adapt and evolve! That is what Bill Clinton was doing with Lewinsky - Bill's marriage had adapted and evolved - his wedding vows were just relics of the past. I'm sure Trev and pack have a similar view of their marriage vows, right guys? Adapt and evolve! I'm sure their wives will agree with their views. Let's not forget those early adaptors and evolvers - the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah. We know how successful they turned out to be!

Calico, the inaccuracy involving the ice caps and Greenland melting was a claim by Gore that sea levels would rise over 20 feet in the near future. The CNN piece claims sea levels have risen 3 mm per year since 1993 (how they can measure such a small change on such a dynamic surface is beyond me) and they might rise 3 feet over the next century. So, no, the CNN piece did not refute what the Judge stated. Gore's claim is unbelievable and unsupported by science.

Come on, OGE, you know you can't question the ALL-KNOWING BEAVAH! Just because the Advancement Committee Policy and Procedures book says the members of BOR are to be troop committee members (IN BOLD) and the SM Handbook says the same thing, that doesn't mean you have to actually follow those rules. They aren't the actual Boy Scout policies, or so says Beavah. Here is his actual quote: "Guidebooks and such aren't the same thing as BSA policy." I'm guessing Beavah who is the only person who has the real BSA policies. And then there is his fall-back position, which I just love: "It is always OK to modify the rules in a manner the rulemaker themselves would if they were present." Take that position and run with it to your heart's desire! Make Scouting whatever you want it to be! Just don't ever make anyone stick to a standard - you might hurt someone's feelings or make a bump in the road on the superhighway to Eagle.

"Guidebooks and such aren't the same thing as BSA policy." Thanks for the laugh, there, eh? That's a good one! But wait - why does page 1 of the Insignia Guide start with "Official Policy" and follow it with "Excerpts From the Rules and Regulations"? Now I am really confused. :-( I need another good laugh, so please explain to this Tenderfoot what the word "Official" means? As in "Official Placement of Insignia" on the Official BSA Inspection Sheets. Are those just suggestions we are free to ignore? If so, why even have them? So, you get a Scout who puts temporary patches ALL over the back of his uniform shirt, until he can't squeeze another one on. You ok with that? What do you think the Regional President would say to that, eh? I like this game! You are free to wear your patches however you want, as long as they are line with what you THINK the CSE or Regional President would allow. Maybe they will put that wording in the next Insignia Guide and clear it up for us.

Actually, I DID answer your question. I just never heard of a "school team" that never played another school, and didn't wear uniforms with the school name. Sounds more like a PE class or after school program than a "school team." I answered the question based on what I know to be a "school team." "A school baseball team is much, much different from a Scout group. The baseball team would wear uniforms with the school name on it, and would represent the school in competition against other schools. The baseball team or any other team representing the school, wearing the school name, should not be allowed to discriminate." No, a school team should not be able to discriminate based on religion or race. The coach does have the right to discriminate, however. He chooses who he wants on the team and cuts the rest. Who knows whether he is discriminating based on factors other than ability - it is very subjective. The FCA info was posted for eolesen, not you.

GW, If that is the case, you shouldn't be cold in the nylon pants, unless you are riding your bike to Troop meetings. Switchbacks aren't required - there are other options.

Schools CAN NOT discriminate against FCA clubs, per the Equal Access Act. http://www.fca.org/Campus/HuddleFAQs.lsp http://image.teamfca.net/siteuploadfiles/FCA/59D89C1C-74BF-4C4F-978D811000467BC8/432A85C5-0108-4489-BD013CD1DBD4F824.pdf The BSA says boys can't be the best kind of citizens unless they respect a higher authority. It does not say a boy can't be a great citizen or a good citizen or a fantastic citizen - we just say they can't be the best kind of citizen. That is our opinion, your's may differ. I don't see how that is insulting to anyone. I don't know what kind of school baseball team you were on, but I've never heard of one like that. Who did you play, if you didn't play other schools?

Dan, No show yet, but thanks for the compliment.