BrentAllen

Dues: $80 Camping trips ~ $20 x 10 = $200 Summer Camp ~ $250 A few monthly trips will be a little higher, but not too much.

eric, I know a lot more about poverty than you think. I work with programs that assist low income families. I'm in their neighborhoods usually 4 days a week. I've also seen Scout units in low income areas, and there are some that have pretty good uniforming - where there is a will, there is a way. We visited a Cub Scout Pack in South Africa in a poor area that would make our lowest areas look rich. The crime was so bad, they had us call them when we arrived at the meeting location, and several adults came out and escorted us in from the parking lot. Yet, about 3/4 of these boys were in uniform. They didn't have all the patches and neckerchiefs, but they had the shorts and shirt, and they wore them with pride. If it can be done there, it can be done anywhere.

eric, You are kidding, right? Have you looked at ebay? How much does a typical campout cost at your Troop? Are you saying boys can afford to go camping, but can't buy a uniform? Can't they sell popcorn or cut grass or rake leaves to come up with the money? Some councils offer assistance for those who truly can't afford to buy one.

BadenP, We have a new Scout joining our Troop this week, an 8th grader. He was in our Pack for one year, in 4th grade. He visited our Troop once, and then visited two others. I have been exchanging emails with his mother since we learned he had chosen our Troop. I received this one last night. Brent, At the Scout store they gave us this circle thing that says "100 years of Scouting." I've figured out where the council patch goes and that purple fleur-de-lis badge.....where does this special anniversary thing go? He is very anxious to show up on Tuesday with every bit of his uniform accurate to a "T." Thanks. I must be some kind of dictator to have that kind of power, after only one meeting! Or maybe, this new Scout liked how we looked and acted, and he wants to be a part of the group. Esprit de Corps. I'm beginning to think I'm as powerful as George Bush was! All I need now is a cape!

pack, As of now, colleges give Eagle Scouts extra consideration on their applications. The military gives Eagle Scouts a bump in pay grade when they enlist. My guess is they do this because they are expecting something extra from these young men. Maybe a skill set, some knowledge, and most importantly an attitude and behavior that is based on the Scout Oath and Law. When the BSA keeps turning out Eagle Scouts that don't meet these expectations, these benefits will disappear, along with much of the respect the BSA and the Eagle badge have earned. So, yes, it does matter. How to solve it? A Troop has 6 opportunities to make sure a Scout has met the minimums and has earned Eagle - at each rank. The problem is many Troops just gloss over the Scout Spirit requirement. As you stated, there are Troops that are pressured to carry non-active Scouts on their charter, for years. If a Troop caves in on that simple issue, how are they ever going to stand up to parents when they are told their son isn't living up to the Oath and Law? The Troop won't, and the Scout is advanced when he shouldn't be. This is like a snowball heading down hill, until the Scout has reached Eagle. All of a sudden, the Troop decides to make the Scout measure up to the Oath and Law (or a new SM takes over), and the SM gets blasted for denying the poor Scout his Eagle. Well, the Troop dropped the ball 5 other times. They have to decide if they want to drop it a 6th, or not. Tough call, that was totally avoidable. I would have to weigh the price of awarding an Eagle I felt wasn't deserved against the damage this might do to the reputation of our Troop. To solve it, you make the Scout Spirit requirement the most important one on the checklist. Address problems early and make sure the Scout understands why he isn't being signed off on Scout Spirit. Once he corrects his behavior and attitude, he advances. If he falls back to his old habits, you hold his feet to the fire again, but this time longer. Make him understand that if he doesn't change, he will never see Eagle.

BadenP, Sure, I expect the Scouts to wear uniforms. Just like I EXPECT them to plan a camping trip once a month. Just like I EXPECT them to plan a meeting once a week. Just like I EXPECT them to advance to at least First Class. I have lots of expectations, all related to the actual BSA program. If that makes me a dictator, then send me the hat. BTW, it isn't just me who EXPECTS the boys to wear uniforms, it is the BSA. See new Boy Scout Handbook, pgs. 32 & 33. You might want to also view the Position Description cards for leaders - just pick any one, because they all contain the same bullet point: Wear the Scout uniform correctly.

Gern, This is really rather simple. When we started the Troop, I set the expectations (you know, that SM vision thing). The boys then took that and made it their own. Now the PLC sets the expectations (still mine as well) and the patrols make it happen thru the Honor Patrol competition. You see, if a SM puts some thought into the Troop, he can obtain his vision thru some indirect routes. If it was just my expectation, I might have to constantly brow-beat some Scouts about it. Instead, thru some creativity, we found a way for the boys to take ownership and have some fun with it. A carrot instead of a stick.

BadenP, Why do I have to spend so much time, helping you comprehend what you read? I'll repeat the statement again for you, and maybe you can get it the second time around: "You may not buy John's argument, and that is fine. But if you do, then why not look at Scouting the same way? This is not MY case for why a Scout should wear a uniform. I think he should wear it because he is a Scout." I expect full uniforms and we get them. You don't expect them, so you don't get them. That should be pretty easy to comprehend.

I'll try again... IF you buy John's argument that the students in the band have an obligation to wear the uniform because the band is providing so much expensive equipment... Then why wouldn't a Scout have a similar obligation to wear the uniform because some adults are volunteering so much valuable time? You may not buy John's argument, and that is fine. But if you do, then why not look at Scouting the same way? This is not MY case for why a Scout should wear a uniform. I think he should wear it because he is a Scout. John, as I said before, that band director is getting paid, it is his job. I "volunteer" many hours at my job, as well. For Scouts, it is all volunteer. If you want to stick with the equipment issue, we provide lots of equipment - stoves, tarps, lanterns, cook kits, a trailer to haul it all in. Gern, Your unit doesn't wear uniforms, so don't waste my time.

Huzzar, Why is this Scout even on your charter? Based on his attendance, I wouldn't have let him recharter after his first year of no-shows. Has he had his SM conference? As SM, it would be hard for me to judge his Scout Spirit, if I haven't seen him in two years. I would be willing to give this young man as much time as he was willing to give to the program. pack, Why does it matter? Because of reputation. If it doesn't matter, then let's just give Eagle out to everyone. As the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures states, "A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done."

SR Beaver, You missed my point. John stated that students in marching band have an obligation to wear the uniform because of all the expensive gear they are provided. My point is Scouts have a similar obligation, based on the "expensive" time put in by the adult leaders. I'm not comparing equipment to time, just the obligation.

Buy it all?? Hmmm, I must be missing something. What do we give our Scouts? How about 1,000 man hours, per year. How much is that worth to you, and the Scout? 10 weekend campouts @ 20 hours x 2 adults 50 Troop meetings @ 1.5 hours x 2 adults 1 week of Summer Camp @ 140 hours x 2 adults My calculations are extremely conservative, as you can see. At just $20 per hour, that gets pretty expensive. My guess is that band director is getting paid. Not too many of us are drawing a pay check from Scouting. Yes, I gladly put in the hours. I expect them to wear the uniform to look and act like Scouts.

We have always operated on that schedule, and the Webelos that crossed over never attend the April trip with the Pack. They are now Boy Scouts, and I would be surprised if they wanted to attend the Pack trip. They will most likely be camping with their Troop, at that point.

BadenP, You could be right - I don't visit these Troops every week. But every time I do visit, they are in full uniform. They must have pretty good intel on me, as most of these visits are unannounced. I have Scouts coming from other events. 95% of the time, they have their full uniform in hand, and head straight to the bathroom to change. This is not to please me, it is to help his patrol in the Honor Patrol competition. If he just brings his shirt, it doesn't count. If you and your fellow SMs are seeing only shirts, you are getting what you expect. You don't mind the boys not being in full uniform, so why should they care? Scout Spirit is many things, including the uniform.

Those college students all graduated with different GPAs. At my school, when you went to the placement center to sign up for company interviews, many companies set a minimum GPA to be able to interview with them. These companies obviously see a difference in quality based on GPA. We don't grade in Scouting, but instead operate on pass/fail. Unfortunately, many units fall into the habit of checking off on requirements when a Scout does the activity once. A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done. I've run into too many Eagle Scouts who couldn't tie a bowline or cook a meal over an open fire. They did it once, got checked off, and moved onto the next skill requirement to do it once, check it off, .... This same attitude spills over to PORs and leadership. Next thing you know, you have a Scout who has checked off all the requirements and has all the badges, including Eagle, but what has he really learned? He has learned to do the minimum, not to take the time and dedicate himself to really learning and mastering the material. The badge should recognize what the young man is able to do. Tenderfoot thru Eagle. Not just skills, but leadership, service and Scout Spirit. That is what an Eagle Scout is. If this were related to school grades, Eagles would be equivalent to A & B students, definitely above average.

OK, BadenP. A Troop down the street added 18 boys this spring, moving up to over 50 Scouts, full uniform with custom neckerchiefs. Another Troop down the street has 65 Scouts, all full uniform. Another Troop in Dunwoody has just under 50 boys, again, a full uniform Troop. Including our 26, that is around 190. Next summer, there will be around 40,000 at the Jambo, in full uniform. So, why do these boys wear the uniform, and others won't?

I have never seen it done, successfully. The largest Troop in our district is right at 100 Scouts. They tried splitting a number of years ago, and it didn't work. I don't know the full details, just going on what I heard thru Scouters in that unit. I'm sure there are Troops that have split successfully, and I would be interested in hearing how they did it. I do know of at least on church that charters several Troops. I don't think they split, but started up new units. I think what you see there is a motivated CM or Webelos leader is moving up and has a group of boys that would like to be in a smaller Troop. They start the unit, and most likely pull some membership from the large Troop, probably Scouts and families looking for a small-Troop experience.

Gern, I'm not interested in quantity - only quality. It has been my experience that when a quality program is offered (either Scouts or otherwise), those who are truly interested in the program will follow, and the program will grow. When number counters take over and are mainly interested in quantity, the program gets diluted to appease a broader base. The program will grow for a short while, but will eventually start to decline as the quality deteriorates - more and more concessions are made to draw in more and more people. Those who initially made the program strong will leave, as they don't recognize the program as the same one they joined. I am very clear with prospective parents - I am interested in working with boys who really want to be Scouts. Boys who want to go camping, who want to go to meetings every week, who want to advance, who want to serve, and who want to wear the uniform. The growth of our Troop, from 6 to 26 Scouts in two years, shows there are plenty of boys who really want to be Scouts, and want to wear the uniform - even in 2009.

Sorry, Beavah, but I see exactly the opposite. The correctly uniformed Troops around here are very active, have their act together, and act like Scouts (Scout Spirit). The units with poor uniforming? Not so much. I just don't get it - why do our Scouts, and others nearby, have no problem with uniforming? Other than when they first join, I don't say a thing to them about uniforming, yet we have nearly 100% in uniform at every meeting. When the Troop forms up, they give Patrol reports, with the number present, absent and number in complete uniform (including Scout book). The Scribe records this information, which is used for the Quarterly Honor Patrol competition. This competition has become fierce, so the boys don't want to let their patrol down by not being in uniform. (points are awarded for % in attendance, and % in complete uniform) We adults don't have to say a word to any Scout about uniforms - the boys take care of it all. This has spilled over to our Class B uniform, as well, even though they don't count in the Honor Patrol competition. The boys all wear our Troop t-shirts (poly)and the BSA Action shirt, along with Switchbacks, while on campouts. We look like a Troop, at all times. Again, I mention this when the boy joins, and I don't say anything about it afterwards. The parents like it because they know exactly what clothing their son needs for Scouting. It helps on our end, in that we don't see the boys showing up in cotton or blue jeans. They have the appropriate clothing for camping. This is so simple, I just can't figure out all the carping about uniforms. What would we say about Troops that only went on a few campouts a year, or had only a few boys advancing? Those are methods, just like uniforming. Most of us wouldn't think very highly of a Troop with a poor Outdoor or Advancement program, but yet we cut lots of slack and make up all kinds of excuses for poor uniforming. And criticism of poor uniforming is completely off limits, but criticism of poor camping or advancement is perfectly fine. That just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

This may be old news and I just missed it, but as I was sending out the link to one of our new Scouts, I noticed a change. Instead of just discussing the height and weight chart, it now also discusses body fat percentage: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34605_Letter.pdf Individuals desiring to participate in any high-adventure activity or event in which emergency evacuation would take longer than 30 minutes by ground transportation will not be permitted to do so if they exceed the height/weight limits as documented in the table at the bottom of this page or if during a physical exam their health care provider determines that body fat percentage is outside the range of 10 to 31 percent for a woman or 2 to 25 percent for a man. Enforcing this limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory. (For healthy height/weight guidelines, visit www.cdc.gov.) There is also a space to record Body Fat % next to the Height and Weight information. I can't determine if this is meant to be more restrictive, or more liberal - can someone outside the height/ weight grid still go, if their body fat is within the range? I'm inside the Recommended weight numbers, so this isn't an issue for me - just wondering in case it comes up.

I have to disagree, Brotherhood and DeanRx. Being a Scouter means living by the Oath and Law - all the time, not just when you have your uniform on. If you don't believe that and live that, why should your Scouts? As Scouts and Scouters, we are different from the rest of society. We do live by an Oath and Law. We set an example for those around us. If you don't believe this and live this, then all you really have is a camping club with patches. A Scout is Clean. A Scout keeps is body and mind fit. He chooses friends who also live by high standards. He avoids profanity and pornography. He helps keep his home and community clean. From my old BS HB: "Another kind of dirt shows up when a person swears, tells dirty stories, or travels around with those who do. You know this is wrong because you usually try to hide it from people you respect. It's hard to get rid of this kind of dirt. It doesn't wash off. The easiest way to be clean and stay clean is to not get dirty in the first place. This is true of both the dirt you can see and the other kind that can get into your heart and mind and shows up in the way you talk and act. You will be judged in part by the friends you have. It has been said that if you travel with thieves, you will be considered a thief. "Unfair," you say? Maybe so. But we tend to make friends with people who are like ourselves." We just had a Scout transfer into our Troop, who is in the 8th Grade. One of the reasons he said he moved was because of the bad language in the other unit - F bombs being dropped all the time. This went hand in hand with some pretty bad behavior. Sorry, but in no way, shape, or form is this Scout behavior, or in keeping with Scout Spirit. Finally, I find the excuse - "I have to cuss because all my co-workers do" - very amusing. No, you don't. On the other hand, you could be setting an example for them by not cussing. Ah, but that would require courage and self-control. Probably too much to ask. It's much easier to just be a Scout on Troop meeting night.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Following up on Beavah's comments, I suggest you set up some criteria for your adults who wish to be ASMs. Hopefully it will help prevent this type situation from happening again. In our Troop, we register new leaders as committee members initially. Those who wish to be ASMs go through all the SM/ASM training, and then spend a year being very active with the Troop. If they "get" the program and work well with the Scouts, they can become ASMs. If not, the CC will decide if he wants to keep him on committee. I have found that when adults have to earn that ASM patch, they take the job more seriously, and they earn a little more respect from the other parents. As for the YP issue, it sounds as if it wasn't a by-the-book violation, but maybe it wasn't a good idea.

Fom my perspective, the adult leaders have cultivated this problem - in several ways. For one, Troops don't push any obligation on the older boys, I guess for fear of losing them (which they end up doing anyway). Troops tell the boys they will cater to them and their schedules, meaning the boys shows up when they want to. At that point, their only real reason to stay in Scouting is to stick around and earn Eagle. I have to ask - have they really earned it? How have they participated in any Patrol Method? As B-P said, the Patrol Method isn't A way to run a Troop, it is the ONLY way. Without Patrol Method, you really don't have Scouting. Instead of making it easier for the older Scouts to stay as a member of a Troop, they should have to make an obligation to be active and participate. The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings and outings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout "Prepared." Will such an attitude mean fewer Eagles? Probably so. Will it mean better Eagles? Probably so. In the end, what do you want? An active, functioning Troop of all ages, or a bunch of older boys earning Eagle that half the Troop doesn't even recognize?

There are 5 reasons guys use profanity: 1. They want to please their mother. 2. They want to make their girlfriend proud. 3. They want to show off their expanded vocabulary. 4. They want to display their tremendous self-control. 5. They want everyone to know they came from a good family. Think about it.

I must be in fantasy land, as well. Knock on wood, but I just don't have these parent issues. On the contrary, we had our second anniversary of the forming of the Troop back in the first week of September, along with a COH. The Troop parents surprised me with a very nice gift, a Garmin 745T navigator. (I get lost once...) What a cool gift! Yes, I was shocked at the level of generosity, and very appreciative. I grew up in a Troop where everyone treated each other as if we were one big family, and that is what I have tried to copy with our Troop. We have a big December COH with covered dish dinner and slide show (PPT) with pics from the entire year. Everyone comes and we get to try different ethnic food, as we have a diverse Troop. I think this one event goes along way towards building that family feeling. I think we run a pretty demanding program, but we let the boys know that before they join. We tell them we expect them to be there for meetings and campouts. We expect them to be in uniform, which they are. We ask them to buy the Troop t-shirt and the BSA Action shirt for camping, and they do. We expect the boys to say "Yes, sir" and "No, sir" and they do (sometimes with some reminding). We expect them to call their PL when they aren't going to be at a meeting, which they do most of the time. We expect them to act like Scouts, which they do pretty well. I love being SM for this Troop, and I look forward to every meeting and every campout. God has blessed me with this group of boys and their parents, and I am very thankful. I hope to be involved with this Troop for a long time.