OldGreyEagle

Wait a minute here, BSA policies outline a procedure by which Patrol's can go on outings by themselves, but if a patrol wants to go on such an outing, the BSA says Not In My Back Yard? Is that right? Bob, I understand you to say a patrol cannot go on a patrol outing on BSA property even though BSA policies says patrol outings without adult supervision is OK ? And that provate property is the only option? So, I own 5 acres, I have a nice secluded spot for a patrol campout. The patrol comes and camps and due to unforeseen events a scout lossess his life. Wouldnt have mattered if an adult was there, its an acident, pure and simple. The scouts family sues me for allowing the patrol to camp on my property knowing they had no direct adult supervision. I say it was an accident and they say if the BSA allows non-adult supervised patrol outings, why do they not allow such events on their own property and I think I am sunk. Do I understand this correctly?

Ok, maybe the jury thing is over the top, still strange to think the people deciding whether another person lives or dies doesnt have all the facts The point is, if you were to forfeit your life if your wrong, about murder, maybe you wouldnt be in a rush to fry the son of a gun. (the rhetorical you of course) Going after the Jesey Devil, see youze guise latta

I am saying that when the state kills a murderer, all the state has done is become equal in action to that murderer. Next, If the death penalty is going to happen anyway, I have an idea. If the person who is convicted on murder is proved to be innocent due to DNA or other unrefutable proof, I think the jury that convicted that person should be placed in jail for the same amount of time the convicted person was in. And if after execution the convicted is found to have been innocent, then the jury is executed as well. I am not saying dont punish, just dont kill.

So if my wife is the victim of a heinous torture muder, I can console myself by thinking, well, at least she wasnt 5 years old, that would have been really bad. I could change my mantra of all life is sacred to all life is sacred but some life is more sacred than others In the bible it tells many times about how we must become like a child, and we are all children of God. When Jesus talks about Children, could he mean all of us who believe, or does he mean just the very young?

bsat4jb, you said "Are you suggesting that we should not punish any crimes?" Did you see where I wrote "When you violate the laws of a society you accept the consequences" If a devils island scenario doesnt work, how about an 8 foot by 8 foot by 8 foot cell for life. I never said dont punish, just dont kill

Ah, Rooster, just like old times, right to the jugular. Before I answer, I would like to pose a rhetorical question, why is the murder of a child or a young woman always held up to be more heinous than the murder of some poor sloob? Now, dont lose me in this, this is all conjecture, but the brutal torture murder of a child, complete with anything you want to add, is horrible. But if the exact same event occurs to me, should it not have the same impact? Why is it that adults are considered expendable, well, he lived a good life, its ok for him to die, but the baby, wow thats bad! The punishment should be the same either all life is sacred or none is. Thats why I abhor abortion, murder is murder. Had a friend of my fathers wife die a few years back, She was 89 and he was 90. She had congestive heart failure, emphysema and arthritis. At the funeral, people were comming up to him telling him not to feel bad, they had been together for 60 years, lived a full life and well, it was to be expected. I can remember the husband looking at my father and saying, all these people tell it was to be expected, hell, I expected Hattie to always be with me, but I digress. I have to admit its easy to be clinical when I have had no one close to me murdered. I don't know what I would feel if my son or wife was killed by someone "just because". Would I cry out and scheme for blood or would I pray to God for the strength to forgive as only God can truly judge. I said I was against the death penalty as I find it contradictory to society's value of life. I do not however have any problem with a Devil's Island set up where proven murderers are placed and forgotten. When you violate the laws of a society you accept the consequences, I just dont see execution as fitting in with our value of human life. Either all life is sacred or none is

So, 30-40 percent of the time, or out of every 100 people on death roow, 30-40 individuals are facing state sanctioned death who did not do the crime they will be killed for. First, I dont agree with the death penalty, but if its gonna happen, what percentage of error do you think is reasonable? 10 innocents for every 90 guilty? 9? what? Remember, we are as a society abhor the taking of another's life as the ultimate wrong, so to prove our point we take that person's life, is that condtridictory? And then, the process, in at least one state has been shown to be more than slightly flawed

Ah, but there is an out, first the scoutmaster tells the scout this isnt a scoutmaster conference for rank advancement, its a conversation to discuss whatever. The BOR, as we have establsihed isnt always about rank advanement. The BOR tells the scout this is not about rank advancement, its to discuss blank. Remember, for a scout to pass a Board of Review, all members have to agree to advance the scout, if that is not done, the scout doesnt advance. A BOR is not a rubber stamp. I would suggest anytime a BOR is held and a scout doesnt advance, a letter detailing the expectations of the scout and troop is drawn up.

And as I understand it, the odds that a convicted resident of Illinois's Death row actually committed the offense is what? 60-70 percent?

Maybe this would be too obscure, but then again sometimes obtuse is my middle name, Actually Grey is my middle name but thats beside the point. Rather then wear the Cub uniform silly, and potentially risk embarassing a boy, and have the collateral damage of other boys in the future 'copying" the leaders bad example because they thought it was a hoot, why not have a leader or boy scout show up in "silly uniform" for football, hockey, etc. Have it all wrong, and have the scouts critque the "silly uniform", why is it wrong? Safety equipment missing or on wrong, jersey inside out, helmet backwards, that sort of stuff. Have the uniformee straighten himself out until it looks right, and then make a correlation to the scout uniform. Its still done with humor, but not to the scout uniform.

Lets see, we have an action on this matter that both Bob White and Ed seem to think is OK, and a blessing with adjuntant suggestion by DSteele, if I was Satan I would be checking on down filled parka's, muk luks and a mummy bag. Has anyone noticed any funny behavior due to the solar flare?

I agree Ed, the first BOR is to provide a "road map" to get the scout on track. No question of advancement until the agreement's terms are completed.

Here's a thought, since I think we all agree a BOR doesnt have to be only about Advancement, lets try this. The scoutmaster reccommednds a BOR be held to help straighten out the "mess". Three committee members sit down and talk to the scout about the situation. The scout says he didnt do a good job, ok, then the BOR asks what would it take for the scout to feel he did a good job. What kind of support will be needed and how that support is to be accessed. The BOR doesnt have to do everything the scout asks, but it starts a dialogue. At the end of the BOR the scout knows what must be done, how to get the support he needs, and the amount of time he needs to do. All should be layed out in a "letter of agreement" complete with check up dates to assure things are on target. Also on the agreement is the date of the next SM conference and BOR, both of which will happen whether the SM wants the scout to advance or not. Again, the BOR actually reviews the scouts progress. If the scoutmaster objects the second time, then reasons need to be shown, but if all have input to the agreement, and its followed, it shouldnt be a problem. This way its not the Scoutmaster against the world, its a group effort to help the scout and the scoutmaster isnt holding up advancement, he is facilitating it and following the process. As it stands now, it doesnt look like theres a plan, and that may be the biggest problem the parents have. Dont just tell the scout he has to improve, but talk to him about what the expectations are, have the scout verbalize them back Make sure he knows where to seek help. You cant just tell the scout Do Better, define what better is is concrete terms with a specified time line, Hows that?

Rob, I see you are in Lafayette, Go you Boilermakers, (I know, technicaly Purdue is in West Lafayette) A little question, a few years back one of your neighboring states (Illinois) reached national attention for having some outlandish number of innocent people on death row, or something like that, do you remember the particulars?

So even though you have only been a member of a Venture Patrol, which is part of the Boy Scout program, and you will be awarded a Bronze award, which is part of the Venturing Program and no one sees a problem? Its amazing what good people can do with a good program with good intentions. SPL_T15 I can offer no advice but have fun, doesnt seem like the rules get your guys way of having fun, and maybe all of life should be more like that.

The name Mike Walton has come up here a few times, it may be interesting to read what he has to say about Scoutmaster conferences: http://usscouts.org/boyscouts/smconf.html I am not saying he is right, or he is wrong, only that he is a respected Scouter. Nowhere does he talk about the Scoutmaster's duty to decide if the scout has adequately met all the rank's requirements, (leastwise not that I saw). I realize this is only an opinion, and as with most things, opinions vary.

Just a quick thought, doesnt the COR ultimately approve and remove all adult leaders? Its not the Committee's job to hire or fire anyone, leastwise not in the conventional sense. Now, if the COmmittee has a huge beef with a scoutmaster they may invite him to resign, but its still up to the scoutmaster as to what he/she wants to do. If he/she is buddies with the COR, then it may be the entire committee that ends up with an extra hour a week. Then again if the COR gets tired of the bickering the entire lot may go, along with the unit, leastwise thats what I understand, I could be wrong...

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but doesn't Israel require men and women to register for selective service and does anyone know how the Israeli Army uses women?

From the USSSP Advancement page 5. While a First Class Scout, serve actively 4 months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop)..." The scout did serve actively, it is acknowledged the boy did not meet the Scoutmaster's expectations, but as has been pointed out the Troop knows they are at fault for allowing this situation to exist. I see no reason to punish the boy and make him do more than the requirement because the adults didnt do their job. The Scoutmaster should sign off and make sure plenty of support is available for the scouts next Position of Responsibility. Even with plenty of support, the scout will be expected to do the job satisfactory. Note that I did say the Scoutmaster should, doesnt mean he has to or that anyone can "force" him to. I think this is what Bob White is talking about when he says there is no need for formal "votes" at a Committee or Troop level. This needs to get worked out without anyone forcing anyone else to do something.

It's not any Venturing thing that I know about, and I have done Venturing for 4 years and earned Poweder Horn

I would like some other Venturing Adults opinion on this, DSteele especially you. While I support the idea of SPL here "double dipping", doing Venturing activities and counting them as merit badge activities as well, but can work towards Bronze be done BEFORE a scout becomes a Venturing Crew member? Can members of a Venture Patrol earn Bronze? I have my opinion, but I want to get others first. BTW SPL, will you be wearing your uniform to school on Friday? When people ask you what you are, your response should be "a babe magnet"(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I don't know know how inspirational this is, but it's one I remember. I had just gotten a job at a hospital as the Radiology Manager. A few months later they had the Employee Pic-nic. A volley ball net was set up, and many vigourous games were being played. The net was suppported by two poles, and each pole had one stake. Well, the people running the Volley ball just wrapped the cord around the stakes and it kept getting loose and the net would fall at the most inopportune time. Being the newbie, I wasnt sure I should step in, but after the fifth time the net collasped, I figured I didnt have much to lose. I set the stakes back and tied Taut line hitches in the cord. The resident obnoxious know it all watched over my shoulder as I tied each one, and after I was done, he tells me he had never seen "those kind" of knots ever work. I just shrugged my shoulders. The Games went on, people still fell into the net, but the taut line hitches held up much better than any arrangement before, and when the whole thing did go down, it was much easier to set it up again using the slip knots. After the festivities were over, the Obnoxious guy came over and told me, "You know, until today I had really never seen those kind of knots work" I told him, well, maybe those knots had never been tied by a real Eagle Scout. He took a few steps back, laughed and said, well, maybe not. You know knot when they will be usefull

Ed, it could be considered on the edge, but if you guys have no problems, Party On !!!

Not sure who you are talking about, Crew Committee Member and received my Poweder Horn on Sept 21 of this year. Can you point out the dribble?

No, To reiterate what has already been said, and perhaps enhance, a Troop does not "grant" "give" "Bestow" or otherwise control the requirements of a Merit Badge, thats up to the merit bdge counselor.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)