OldGreyEagle

http://www.windsports.net/yahts.php Ain't I a stinker?

Well, as I understand it, we are here because of the James Dale case. He was an Assistant Scoutmaster and as I understand if not highly regarded, he was at least not thought of as a liability. While attending Rutgers, he became active in the campus gay and lesbian alliance. When a newspaper printed an interview with him it was seen by someone in his council and then he received a letter saying his membership was revoked. He asked why and was told because being gay was not in keeping with scouting values. The case went to the US Supreme Court and it was correctly decided that as a private organization we get to establish our own membership rules. Now, about the other court cases, those cases seem to be about the BSA and use of facilities, not a person wanting to be a member of the BSA. IN the San Diego case regarding Balboa park its the use of the facilities that are the issue, I dont know of anyone in San Diego who is gay or atheist who is suing to be a member of the BSA. Maybe Merlyn could help me here. And I thought I answered the next part again, but here goes. I dont think we separate males and females because of sexual attraction, I posted somewhere that we separate because of cultural tradition. I know when traveling and feel the need and find a service station that has unisex facilties, I feel slightly emabarrassed that separate facilities are not available though I have no idea why other than societal convention. I have also posted that in the troop I serve tent mates are not assigned by adults, the youth figure it out on their own. Why can't that continue? I guess when it becomes the norm to have restrooms labeled Straight Males, Gay Males, Straight Females, and Gay Females then we may have to worry about it.

Your explanation helps, but I still have difficulty formulating an answer because I think you base your question on a false assumption. I think that false assumption is as soon as Boy Scouts allows gay leaders, then all the boys immediately delare themselves heterosexual or homosexual and the dance of how to keep them separate begins and I dont see it that way. When I say there is no room in Boy Scouts for sexuality I mean its not a subject that is open for discussion. If a scout comes to be because he has a question about sex, I refer him to his parents, church leader or school counselor. I don't care how trivial the question. Because youth read these pages I am not going to give examples but that last thing Boy Scouts needs is a boy going around saying I asked Mr GreyEagle about xxx and he told me all about it.

Long Haul, when I figure out what you asked, I'll have a response

first off my understanding of a wise skier is one that stays comfortably close to the lodge fire all day Next, it will be a big mistake, to start using merit badges as your meeting program. What if I have the featured merit badge? What do you do with me? What if I am not interested with the featured merit badge? How do you keep me interested ? Making meetings fun is hard work, (fun is work, what a concept)But I am sure this forum can help you with ideas and suggestions. And you may ever ::cringe:: have a few people disagree with me

Fred, I am not sure where you are going, but here goes my take. The American Society separates men and women when it comes to matters of "that sort". Its societal norms that give us the "gents" and "ladies" rooms. Male and Female locker rooms at pools and fitness clubs. Its a cultural thing. if we had been raised in a culture of unisex bathrooms or showers, there may not be an issue of keeping the sexes separated. But, be that as it may, we do live in a society with social conventions and we separate the sexes in that regard and I imagine we shall continue for quite awhile. So, why do we do it? Tradition. How do I feel about it? I feel like its the thing to do. Now, I have said this before, there is no room for sexuality in scouting. We dont have straight scouts or gay scouts, we have scouts. We wouldnt have gay leaders or straight leaders, we would have leaders. its not a question of separating gay and straight boys in showers as there is no reason to know who is gay/straight because there is no sexuality in the BSA. In the Camp showers I have been in, all stalls are individual and there is no reason for anyone to be naked in front of another. If your camp is not like this it soon will be. I am sure most members of this forum who have showered in public facilities have showered with gays. How did that work out?

well, its all over http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060127/NEWS/60127004 Its against the by-laws of the BSA to so what they wanted. Think the whole situation needs to be reviewed on how things got so far out of hand financially and the process they went through to decide to assess the 52 dollars.

Eamonn, I always thought of Fagin as almost B-P like, he did have the patrol method down pat, he inspired loyalty and certainly worked the buddy system, then again his track record on trustworthy and instilling citizenship could use work, I guess upon reviewing the situation I think I'd better think it out again!

In the troop I serve we have had miltiple Eagle ceremonies and although normally we do individual ones. Actually, its not the Troop that does it, its up to the family. They are usually held in the sanctuary of the CO, but they have been held in other places as well. After years of telling parents that scouting is for the boy and trying to stamp out parental "helping" on requirements and Eagle projects this is the time we tell the parents they can do as much as they want. We have a CD that has various ceremonies on it as well as invitations, programs, addresses of dignitaries, etc. that is passed around and this year we have a committee member whose job is Eagle Court of Honor Liason, to help parents with the process. In the past the Troop would give each Eagle the red wool jacket, the problem was no one ever wore it, and with 3-4 Eagles a year, it was quite an expense. When the scoutmaster's son made Eagle, he received a plaque commerating the day. (traditons can change!)

We have a 30 cup coffee maker that is used to heat water with instant coffee and tea bags present. Troops are assigned to bring "goodies", usually they do but not always. I view Roundtables as I do Summer Camp, I am not there for the cuisine

This statement was made on another thread: "... Well, maybe because when the National Democrat Party invites a Boy Scout Color Guard to their National Convention to carry in the flag, and then booh's them on nationwide tv, that would be a start..." Then in the story Fred posts it says: "...In Philadelphia, we learned, a crowd once booed Santa Claus. But members of the usually mellow California delegation trumped Philly on Tuesday night when they booed the Boy Scouts leading conventioneers in the pledge of allegiance. The Scouts don't allow openly gay leaders, and their presence onstage did not sit well with some of the 434 Californians, 34 of whom are openly gay..." So the story documents it was "some" of the California delegations. What about the delegations from Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, etc. What does some of the California delegation actions tell us about the National Leadership of the Democratic party? It was wrong, but was it orchestrated? I seem to remember after the booing there were apologies made, is there any reference to that avaliable?

I took Powderhorn training with a Wiccan scouter, he was quite devote in his beliefs

Fgoodwin, as far as coed camping goes, I refer you to Venture Youth Protection, it deals with coed camping rules quite well. Boys and Girls have been camping together in Venturing since 1998 and Girls were part of Exploring since the early 70's. While I am certain indiscretions occur, its not like Venturing campouts resemble Caligula's Rome. Next, I think many people have implied in various posts here and other places, I am not sure I can keep the threads separate that sexulaity has no place in boy scouts, or the co-ed scouts if that be the case. We dont have gay scouts and straight scouts, we have scouts. We dont have gay leaders or straight leaders, we have leaders. Now, I dont know how the troop you serve arranges tent mates, but the one I serve, its buddy up by volunteers. I dont worry about puting a gay scout with a straight scout, as its the scouts who figure out where they sleep. AHA you say, then two gay scouts might end up together well they might but as previosly stated as there is no place for sexuality in scouts, and "issues" are dealt with. As far as showers go, do high schools worry if they have gay and straights taking showers together? (maybe I should watch that, some might) I know at the Summer Camp we frequent, the shower stalls are quite private and no one needs to be seen naked. I dont see it as an issue. Just one extraneous thought, what ever happned to SAGregan? He started this little fracas and where is he/she now?

Gee Brent, I didnt think I attacked you, I just answered your post, or at least thats what I thought I did I accept your right to your views and I am not sure where I or anyone else asked you to apologize for your views. I said I was independent and it was fun watching from the sidelines. I meant watching the mud slinging, not issues that I am concerened with. I have stated before that I beleive abortion is murder, You can look it up on this forum. Thats a conservative view. I don't think the world would end if the BSA allowed gay leaders, thats a Liberal View. I don't think Capital Punishment is moral, that would be Liberal, but then again I voted for GW in both elections, that would be conservative. I am for conservation and Leave no trace camping, thats liberal, I dont beleive in welfare, but think "work fare" should be required, thats conservative. Where do I fit in political spectrum? Comfortable in my beliefs. I found this on the web, http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=750 I dont know if its an unbiased site, but it says what I thought was true, so at the very least its biased to my thoughts so I'll use it. Accrding to it, 30% of the population identifies themselves republican and 31% democrat, that a dead heat. Oh, and BTW, that means approx 40% of us consider ourselves independents. Democrats and republicans need the independent vote to win elections, wonder if they will start to describe what they each plan to do rather than talk about how lousy the other one is.

I am the one who asked about the Scouts at the Democratic Convention. I did not mean to imply that it was urban legend that they were booed, they were indeed booed. The question I raise is whether or not "democrats" are anti-boy scouts, and whether or not the people who booed at the boy scouts were representative of the Democratic party(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Brent, I have a ceiling to paint, can I get the name of the store where you buy your paint brushes as you paint mighty wide The booing of the scouts at the Democratic Convention was a poor display of those who booed. Is there any proof it was set up by the Democratic leadership at the time? I have heard varying stories about that incident, I would like to hear more. I dont think it was the Democratic Parties policy to boo Boy Scouts but rather select unruly people enjoying their right of free speech and unfortunately targeting those who least effect the policy they were protesting. Next, does Pat Robertson talk for all consevatives when he says our National Policy should include policital assasination? or that God punished Sharon? I thought it was an atheist that wanted to change the Declaration of Independence, might be liberal, may not Merlyn may be able to help us here. I do know that the hottest bed of Liberals, Massachusttes is amoung the most catholic of all the states, go figure them godless liberals. Next when Conservatives talk about timeless values, would those be the ones exhibited by Abramhof? Next of course is Howard Dean saying that no Democrat took a dime from Abramhof, which is about as hysterical as his rant following his loss in Iowa. I didn't know the sticky fingerness of politicians respected party lines. I guess what I am trying to say is if you align yourself with a group that can only point out the foibles of another, you had better be darn sure your own house is clean and at this point Hercules had an easier time cleaning up The Augean Stables than either side will have tidying up after this disaster. I am a registered Independent, which means I don't have to cringe anytime one of "my" kind is found which his hand in the cookie jar nor do I feel incumbent to throw garbage at the other side. I have a fine time watching from the sidelines and wonder when/if either/both sides will ever get to the task of directing a society rather then running down the "enemy". As commented on another post, all great societies fall, and most from within rather than from without, is this our beginning?

It was my first time, I'll do better next time

GB, you can get your dime under the same conditions as Trev

Trev, that's not the answer I was looking for, but if you PM me I will send you my address and if you send me a self addresed stamped envelope, I will send you your dime as it's technically correct. The answer I was going for is that those faiths I listed all have religious award medals sanctioned by the BSA to be worn on the uniform

Actually you could say Merlyn supports scouting, its the BSA with which he has issues Yikes! Now I am channeling Kudu

Actually its not just the Atheist that may have been intimidated by Moore's display. Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, Baha'is Meher Babas and Zoroastrians all whose faiths do not include the 10 commandments may have not figured to get a fair shake in the Judge's courtroom. For a bright shiny new dime, what does the above mentioned faiths have in common besides being non-christian?

On one weekend we did troop PLC training. Friday night was a showing of "the great escape" to show how various people can become membes of a team.

First Funscout, I didnt mean anything aimed at you, there have been several blue and red comments lately and I was reacting to that. Nest I live in Pennsylvania and have no idea what color "we" are. For that matter, when someone says they are blue or red, I really have no idea what that means. Ok, yes I know it means how that state voted in the presidential election, but as to who is red and blue, I dont know nor do I really care. I have stated before my job sometimes calls for extensive travel. This past fall I spent significant time in Tupelo, Mississippi (saw the King's house, man it was small) as well as time in Augusta and Winder Georgia. Now as I take it these are conservative states Yet the entire time I was there I never did meet anyone without shoes, the people I worked with had all their teeth that I could see and all could read at least the sixth grade level. Overall, they were as decent hardworking and bright as any I have met. I also have spent time in Massachusetts and on Whidbey Island in Washington and several Seattle suburbs. I have been told these are very liberal areas, yet I never did see anyone giving prophylactics away in the street for that matter the streest werent anywhere near to what I have imagined Sodom and Gommorah to have been like. Overall the people I met were as decent hardworking and bright as any I have met. Maybe I am being a Pollyanna on this, well at least a Pollyandy, but I see more common amoung us than differences. Its funny how cyclical things are, as a child of the 60's I followed the crowd in a rush to prove our individualism (I can hear the youth murmurring "what?") Growing hair long, wearing bell bottoms, doing what we could to establish our own identity, telling people that we wouldnt be pigeonholed, labeled, that we were all unique. And now in the double "Aughts" (remember Jethro Bodine, he wanted to be a "double aught" agent) we want to label outselves and others as Red or Blue, conservative and liberal. What happened to being unqiue?

I really dont view people as being from Red or Blue states, are the differences that huge that the distinctions needs to be made? How long before the Blue and the Red becomes the Blue and the Grey? xxxx

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