Pack18Alex

The Council budget supports the camps, staff in the store/office, and the DEs/SEs. You can pull up the 990 for your Council and see how they spend money. Niche product, a neighbor's sister wrote a Passover Cookbook that we wanted to sell as a fundraiser. They said no non-BSA product sales were being approved. OTOH, we hadn't done a Council Fundraiser in a few years. And we had stiffed them on a recharter fee a few years earlier that was still on the books. I'm pretty sure after doing good Popcorn/Camp Card sales, we'll get whatever we needed pushed through. Other things for us... we're a Jewish Unit, which means no travel on Saturday. Well, as we've restored our Council relationships, they added an option to Camp Over for Cub Fun Day (a Saturday only event). We were the only group that Camped as a Unit, a few were individual families that thought it would be fun. They are working on ways to accommodate us in other ways, and a good relationship is important. But my Emails/TXT messages are corresponded with with our DE on a regular basis. We chat as needed. Council helped us straighten out a bunch of messes. We have a good relationship in that everyone knows me, helps me when needed, coordinated things for our boys that were necessary. Council needs to function so we can put on the program. It's a professionally guided, volunteer run organization. Doing the Council Fundraiser helps your Unit make money AND Council pay it's bills.

Council doesn't get dues, unless your Council charges dues on top of national. Our council doesn't pay dues. They really want us to do their two fundraisers, but several units refuse to do popcorn (we apprehensively tried it for the first time this year, had a smashing success). If your only involvement with Council is to show up at re-chartering, fine, skip their fundraisers. But if you want a good relationship with Council, I highly suggest participating in the fundraisers and urging the parents to give SOMETHING to FoS. We applied to do a fundraiser for a niche product, we were rejected. That year we hadn't done popcorn, and didn't do camp cards the prior year. We did camp cards that spring, popcorn this fall, and I can't tell you how much of a change in attitude I get from everyone I deal with at Council. At a district round table, someone came out and spoke to us about fundraises. Our DE said, if you're not doing our fundraisers, make sure you do some fundraiser. I have a really good relationship with my DE, but our doing the fundraisers helps him make his numbers. In turn, he helps me wherever he can. Others have problems with Council, but a lot is expectations. Council's job is growing units. The definition of a good program is, are scouts joining, are scouts retaining, and are scouts advancing. If you take an adversarial position with council, you'll get away with it (they serve you), but it creates more conflict than is necessary.

I think if we do that he'll have to donate pin work so we can do both at once...

When my wife was reviewing them with our son, she commented to me that in PE she remembers learning different sports and playing a bit. It seemed to her like the same purpose here, to make you more well rounded. Last Pack Outing, we did Chess and Badminton. Some of the boys already knew Chess and taught the others, the others learned a game they wouldn't have learned otherwise. Badminton is one of those things that is a "only because of Scouts" like Marbles, things people don't learn otherwise. On one hand, I think doing Belt Loops @ Den Meetings is a mistake, it's crowding out the age-specific electives that are way more Scouty. However, for Pack Activities/Pack Meetings/Pack Outings, these are great because Tigers - Webelos II can all do the same activity and receive recognition. My son went Gung Ho as a Tiger, likes earning them as a Wolf. The new Bear Scouts are gung-ho, the existing ones are bored. The Webelos enjoy receiving them but half the time forget to wear their belts. Given that today, in school, PE is so much more limited, I think that they are a great program. My son set a goal of getting them all (I have no idea how to do Snowboarding/Snow Skiing in South Florida)... I doubt he'll hit it, but its neat for him to set a goal, try, likely fail, and grow from that experience. Given Council and National's Cash Flow Problems, I don't understand why they'd cut a program that involves buying 5 cents of plastic from China and selling it for $1.80 at the Scout Store. The Pins, however, are one of those things we could ditch. My son LOVES his (we sewed the C on the Brag Vest, like a letterman's jacket), but they seem to be less about learning about the sport, and more about the leader pencil whipping them through the requirements. The Academic Belt Loops seem like a great and underutilized part of the program as well. After Blue and Gold, I'm looking to see how I can arrange for doing a meeting to satisfy a few electives AND do a Belt Loop.

Overstated. The High Priest new the ineffable name, and mentioned it in the holy of holies as part of the Yom Kippur service. Various names used for God are prohibited from distraction under Jewish law.

I apologize for getting the origin of hymns wrong, I'm not Christian, and while I have huge respect for all people of faith (and respect for people without faith), I'm not an expert on my own religion, let alone an expert on others. I didn't say discussing religion, I said discussing faith. Focus on Faith is a VERY Christian concept... salvage via faith, etc. Jews have a commandment that is best translated as to KNOW God. We're not supposed to have faith, we're supposed to KNOW God and we're supposed to serve God via 613 Commandments. There is no bonus in the world to come for faith, simply for doing positive commandments/deeds, and not violating negative commandments. I have tremendous respect for what BSA is doing with Scouts' Own. I'm just suggesting that a freewheeling service is a Protestant STYLE service, with non-denominational and inter-denominational prayers. Jews, Muslims, and Catholics have a set prayer structure. The Jewish prayer structure is at least 1600 years old, the Muslim one at least 1200 or 1300 years old... the Catholic liturgy has had more recent changes. If I ran a Scouts Own, where we started with Psalms, morning blessings of Thanksgiving (with non-denomination versions), then a silent prayer (letting Scouts do their own to be non-denominational) then the fixed prayers read by a leader, read the Torah portion for the week, read the Haftorah (book of Prophets) for the week, and then did another silent/repetition prayer set, interspersing different Psalms and prayers from faiths around the fixed prayer sets, it'd be non-sectarian, but it'd be a non-sectarian Jewish service. I think BSA does a wonderful job being inclusive. My Council and District are being AMAZING at including our seemingly quirky Jewish Units. I don't want to take away from what BSA does to include all faiths. I'm just suggesting there is a certain underlying Protestant Lens. Nothing wrong with that, the program is EXTREMELY flexible for us to adapt towards our faith, for both faith-based and non-denominational Units. But there are certain parts of it that are inherently Protestant that we work with. Quick FYI: the idea of writing G-d instead of God isn't disrespectful, it's to avoid destroying the name of God. It technically only applies in Hebrew, but many Jews will not write, on paper, God in English. You can write it out in Hebrew too, it's just that instead of throwing away the paper, you bury it.

The Troop is responsible for recruiting for the Troop. The Pack is responsible for recruiting for the Pack. Fine. If the Troop wants to find 6th Graders to join and ignore the Pack, that's their choice. But if you don't want to recruit, then you die. Put another way, why should I, as a Pack leader, help your Troop (as opposed to another one) getting a NSP from my Webelos II if you haven't done anything for me. The Troop gets Scouts from Packs. Why is it offensive that Troops have to do something for that? None of us WANT to recruit, it's part of the program. I resent the idea Scouts is all play and no work. Learning that you have to do things you don't want to do, like recruiting, is part of growing up... Last I checked, that was what we are here to do, help turn boys into men. If the troop resents helping the Pack, then you're turning boys into Man-Childs.

Accepting atheist Scouts is distinct from accepting atheism. Some atheists will reject Scout Law and can't be Scouts, some atheists will accept Scout Law and can be Scouts. The problem is, once you open it up, you end up with atheism crowding out religion, with things like removing God from the promise/oath.

Regarding BSA being Protestant: BSA is extremely Protestant, it's just that Protestants don't even understand how it's Protestant, which I've posted elsewhere. Scouts' Own: EXTREMELY Protestant. Not the content, which is non-denominational, but the structure. Catholics/Jews/Muslims have fixed prayer liturgy. LDS has it's own structure. Freewheeling services are Protestant. Religious Requirements: talk with parents/religious leader type stuff. Again, very Protestant in the personal interpretation area. Other religions have their own structure. Cub Scouts: Tigers talk about faith that is simply a Protestant approach to faith. Wolf: again, it's a Protestant approach to religion, the electives have things like "learn a hymn before/after meals" -- Jews don't do hymns. We do prayers with the pre-post psalms. In Cub Scouts, my son is talking about Faith, believing in things we can't see, etc. In my son's religious schooling, faith is at most presumed. The boys at this age are learning to read Hebrew, learning the most common prayers, and learning which prayer is for which thing (tricky one: bananas follow the vegetable prayer, not the fruit prayer, since they fruit within 12-18 months and aren't classified as trees), learning the morning blessings said every morning (not subject to your personal views that day). They aren't talking about faith/belief. Muslim youth at this age would be learning their structured prayer service. LDS has their own structure, I'm not aware of the details. It has some heavy Protestant influences in structure (as opposed to the more Judaic/Catholic legalisms), but it's own structure... part of why LDS runs its own Scout Programs. But the structure of their service reflects that they broke off from Protestantism. In contrast, Catholicism and Rabbinic Judaism both broke off from Temple Judaism.

As an individual, you can absolutely have verb strong morals and be an atheist. You can be a very strong theist and utterly immoral. The very legalistic side of Judaism, Catholicism, and Islam all tend towards amoral legalisms. That's NOT the point. Scout Law as a philosophical framework requires that there be an absolute set of principles, enumerated as 12 points of Scout Law. That framework requires "black and white" from an external higher authority. It is a philosophical framework, divine morality. There are certainly non-divine morality frameworks, but most of them require a degree of case-by-case relatavisms. For example, if we accept Rawl's Theory of Justice as our framework, then all actions get viewed through a Veil of Ignorance, and morality is determined by how we would feel if we had no idea which side of the equation we'd be on. This encourages compassion for the less fortunate, but it's case by case. If you accept Utilitarianism as your framework, it's greatest good for the greatest number, which accepts scapegoating, but again is case by case. If we accept Kant's categorical imperative, then we have to evaluate each decision on universality, something is only moral if everyone doing it results in a good result. This is the most compatible with Scouting, BTW, but runs into conflict with the ability to deal with behaviors that are harmless in small numbers, bad universally. To bring it back to the current subject, acceptance of Homosexuality is rejected by Abrahamic Divine Law, accepted by Theory of Justice, and Utilitarianism is somewhat indifferent, while perhaps seeing that the greatest good is accepting everyone for whom they are. The categorical imperative forces a condemnation of homosexuality, because if EVERYONE is homosexual, society crumbles. So it is very possible to build a personal moral worldview without divine law. It's very possible to build a philosophical worldview without divine law. However, Scout Law, with its emphasis on 12 unbreakable virtues to live by, is NOT compatible with case-by-case philosophy. At it's core, the Scout Law requires accepting those virtues as given and not negotiable. Mosaic Law is given by Torah/Talmud, Christian law by Bible/Canon/Governing bodies, and Scout Law is given by Baden-Powell. If you reject "law from on high," then you can't really accept Baden-Powell's Scout Law, because the idea of law "as given" is rejected. Scout Law is NOT compatible with "personal morality." One can ABIDE by Scout Law and ABIDE by personal morality, but only because in your personal morality, you've chosen to embrace Scout Law. The nature that Scout Law simply is and must be accepted is not compatible with a view of personal morality. Now, if you embrace personal morality AND scout law, you don't see this conflict... that's not my ignorance, that's your selection bias. Those that embrace personal morality and reject scout law simple aren't Scouts/Scouters, so they aren't in the discussion.

If you take out the religious component entirely, the entire concept of Scout Law goes away and we have a camping club. Not because religion is inherent in 11/12 points of Scout Law, its only inherent in one I suppose. BUT, the concept to "there is a right and wrong" is critical to the concept of Scout Law. Atheism can define a set of morality, but the morality is inherently legalistic and morally relativistic. Without the divine nature of morality, you are stuck with awkward things like Categorical Imperative, Veil of Ignorance/Justice, Utilitarianism, etc. All of which lack hard and fast black and white rules. Scouting, with its Scout Law to be taught to minors, requires the existence of black and white morality. It doesn't require any one specific black and white morality, it does require one. Without granting the power to the supernatural to define morality, everything becomes, "it depends." So while BSA is defacto Protestant while being officially non-sectarian, it doesn't reply on Protestant morality so much as divine morality, pure truth, pure black and white. The religious right didn't "take over the BSA." The ACLU bullied BSA, got it kicked out of the schools, and BSA relocated to the Churches. Prior to that, the anti-atheism bent of scouting was more or less the Pledge of Allegiance and acknowledging a Duty to God. Making a stand against that resulted in the very Christian BSA we have today.

I think that the current Pack/Troop model is fundamentally broken. The administrative separation causes a problem where the parents have to choose which one to support, and if they have two sons, it's always the troop since "he'll be in the troop soon." But, the Troops never feel the need to help the Pack, and all BSA recruiting is falling on the shoulders of Cub Parents, and that's pretty lame. GSUSA mostly does single-level troops, but you can do a multi-level troop, which lets you run from age 5-12 under one number. You can operate age based patrols under one banner, and mix the levels up as appropriate. Now, they have a "girls choose" model that is different than "girl led," the GSUSA adults are always completely in charge in a was BSA Troop adults are not. But administratively, you can break up your groups as makes sense for programming, while administering them together, providing multi-level leadership, etc. In years past, our Pack/Troop met same time, different places, and no cross-overs for a few years. The Webelos dropped out as they were outgrowing Cub Scouts. This year, same place, different times (with some overlap). I've "borrowed" a Boy Scout for 10-15 minutes to teach Fire Safety, etc., to the Cubs... when that happens, the boys are SO focused and intent. I'm hoping with the 2015 changes, we'll retire the dated Jungle Book Mythology, and focus Cub Scouts more on going back to being Junior Boy Scouts. If everyone at a CO was in a single Unit, you could float your Webelos Den as a better transitionary program. They should do Webelos "getting ready" activities in Den Meetings, participate in Boy Scout Outings with a Webelos Patrol (with Den Leaders actively involved), and Pack meetings as leadership. They need guidance.

Sucks for you, but it's all about the boys. You can still be involved in the Pack and work on the Pack/Troop integration. If they don't want you because your son is a "traitor," so be it. I know our district is trying to recruit Cub Scouters to fill the District Committee when their boys bridge to troops. If you like BSA involvement and your son's troop isn't welcoming, I know volunteer Scouters are always needed. Your son's Troop time is limited at 7 years, there is plenty of Scouter activities for you for the next 7 years. Perhaps you can find a Venturing Crew that wants an active Scouter to help the program.

If the policy brings more corporate money in at the Council level, that'll be really helpful. The youth policy is largely irrelevant. If a boy is a problem, he'll be kicked out. The policy really hurt with some more liberal parts (extremely liberal parents won't want an activity with military style uniforms and patriotism front and center). BSA losing the narrative to GLAAD has been deadly. People associating BSA with bigotry instead of service has killed the program. GLAAD clobbered the BSA brand, sad to say. We did popcorn sales for the first time ever this year, raised a bunch of money. I used a chunk of it to subsidize our campouts, which has helped massively increase our participation. $5/person doesn't seem like much, but it's $25-$30 for a family of 5 or 6, which is the difference between Scouting being expensive or inexpensive. Money helps, money that doesn't come from Scouts and families is HUGE.

Mixed feelings. The boys LOVE the belt loops, it's easy to have stuff for many boys at Pack Meetings. They are much less work than the other ones. However, I feel in our Council (our district and another one whose summer camp we attended), Belt Loops are crowding out electives. I have memories of doing a bunch of electives with my Den and my dad when I was a kid, and the electives seem like they should be a core part of the program. But 10 electives takes 2-3 meetings to plan and execute, while you can do 1 belt loop/meeting pretty easily. OTOH, the academic ones seem silly. I also find it strange that they just rolled out the Nova program, which at the Cub Level is VERY belt loop centric, and they are getting rid of them? I'd like to see more of the electives re-emphasized. One of the joys of the Cub Scout program is pushing old fashioned "boy hobbies" that drop by the way side. The sports ones are great, get exposed to different sports, but it is seeming to crowd out Scouting. I know one Pack that every meeting does 1 Achievement, 1 Belt Loop. So you do 12 Achievements (15 for Tiger) to earn your Rank, but you've earned 12 loops along the way... Which do you think seems more substantial to the boys? Over the summer, my son took an old iPod, installed a belt loop app, and really focused on belt loops with my wife. It was a great experience for him.

But either way, christineka, your time as a Cub Leader is coming to an end (well, at least your emotional investment is). If your boys want to hit all 20, run your own sessions for other pins. Focus on making sure they are enjoying Scouting and getting ready to join the Troop. They only have a few months left in Webelos. Alternatively, pre-merger, call a Pack Meeting and Award Webelos for anyone that earned it, then it's a moot point. Send in the paper Advancement report to Council reporting their Webelos badge in December (when it was earned) and move on.

I think that the over-exposure fear is a myth. The concern isn't over-exposure to BSA, it's that the program shifts so dramatically from Cubs to the Troop. Webelos is a pretty weak transition program. However, jblake47's approach of using Webelos II to get the boys ready for Scouts makes more sense. No reason to not do Webelos + AoL in one year, the LDS units do it. I think the push for 20 pins is a mistake, it makes Webelos more cub-like (Tiger/Wolf "do it all"), instead of the Boy Scout "merit badge" system it's designed to emulate. I also think it's a poor transition program. The Troop program is supposed to be: work on scout skills to First Class, then branch into merit badges. To have boys working on mini-merit badges in preparation for the Troop is a mistake, since their first 1 to 3 years are supposed to be skills. Merit Badges, the mini-vocational program for older Scouts, is dominating the middle school years, which is making the troop more cub-like...

True, but if a scout joins in 15 and goes all out for AoL, they are into it. The way this reads, to me, is a Tiger,Wolf,Bear,Webelos self contained program, followed by an arrow of light program. At least before you need to do the 18 month program in 6 months, now you can just do the 6 month one... Hence my lame comment...

I find it disconcerting enough the way Arrow of Light is. Under the program guidelines, a boy that's been scouting 4.5 years and one that has been scouting 0.5 years that amassed the pins in 6 months gets the same recognition as the highest honor in Cub Scouting, one that they'll wear on their Boy Scout Uniform AND Adult Scouter Uniform. There is no need for Arrow of Light for someone that isn't in Cub Scouting and a real participant in the program. Strengthening Webelos is good. Continuing to spit on the program that is the bread and butter of Scouting is lame.

Cub Scouter here... Our families get them there. On our Tour Plan, I list Transportation Other: event begins at location, families are responsible for arrival. No problem getting my Tour Plans Approved... At the Boy Scout level, tell the CC it's a problem. They need everyone's DL/Insurance info on file. For each event, contact the drivers, ask who is available. It should rotate. If that doesn't get you volunteers, minimums are hard, but a credit towards dues for driving might work. Is the goal more equitable driving, or more driving? The former is a different problem than the latter. If it's fairness, find a way to distribute the load. If it's just more, organize on file and ask people.

I would suggest talking to the leaders, and focus on all the positive things. You're excited to be in a more Active Pack. You are happy to be a part of the new team, etc. I would focus on the non-standard issue that bugs you, awarding of the Webelos Badge. I believe that LDS Packs use the old-school Webelos Square badge on the blue uniform for Webelos, right? In that scenario, I would ask that they are awarded their Square Webelos Badge when earned, so they can wear it as a Cub Scout. Then they can switch to a Tan Uniform, wear their Arrow of Light, and be presented their Scout Rank Badge. That seems like a minor change to their program, that would make it slightly more BSA-standard, and more friendly. We had hiccups in our program last year, Rank Advancement happened in May. We didn't encourage the Webelos to switch Uniforms at that time, because we wanted them to wear their Bear Badge for a few months this year. Since Tiger displaced Webelos on the Blue Uniform (for non-LDS Units), there isn't really room for the square Webelos badge anymore. So my suggestion would be to ask if they are okay with this: Webelos Rank Badge - When Earned Arrow of Light - at Birthday Scout Rank Badge - As earned I'm 99% sure that they earn the Scout Rank Badge as part of Webelos Arrow of Light. I think that they want Webelos to be a full year program celebrated with Arrow of Light. I think that they haven't thought through the fact that they'll never wear their Webelos Rank. It would seem that: Webelos Rank as Earned Arrow of Light + Scout Rank Badge to go on their new Tan Uniform Would do what they intend to do, a full year Webelos Program with Rank at the end. The difference is, the rank at the end isn't Webelos, it's Scout. We aim to Rank Advance @ Blue and Gold now. That means Webelos 1: Webelos, Webelos 2: Arrow of Light. I'm not sure if we'll cross over @ Blue and Gold (no Webelos 2 this year). We may do it then, or a month or two later. Our Webelos Den if they stick around will double the size of the Troop. I think we want to hold them into the Pack until it is time to cross them over and ship them off to camp.

Every Dec 24th I'm at Home Depot before it closes... Always do a home improvement project with a full clear day and no obligations. Cashier was shocked at my materials that I was having for Christmas Eve. I told her that I was Jewish, so it worked out. She got embarrassed, nervous, and I just smiled at her and said, "Have a Merry Christmas." She beamed like it made her day. This Jew hoped y'all had a merry Christmas. We enjoy the display of lights and cheer, though we avoid the malls for a month - mall holiday season makes me fear I'll hurt someone... But I am quite comfortable in my religion. I'm Jewish and a practicing Jew, not Jewish in the I'm not Christian style. I have lots of holidays, I see not reason to begrudge my holiday-challenged gentile friends theirs. A few of my Jewish friends and I were very inspired this Christmas. The families that go all out are truly inspiring. As Jews we have lots of rules and few avenues of raw expression. I told someone I was to approach Passover cleaning with the joy and excitement of the families with a 1000k light display. They thought I was nuts...

You could also drop Boys Life and let them re-add it with their Troop transfer application. We charge dues for our program year, Sept - August. New members "cost" us money, because we pay for them in the fall, then pick them up for the year. My dilemma is I have Scouts who paid dues for the year, have said that they are "out" and it's recharter time. If I pick them up, it hurts us for JTE for next year. If I drop them, it's kind of lame, because they paid, and I'll need to re-enroll them if they return.

Qwanze, Early Chanukah didn't help at all, but our problems crept up before that. Reviewing with the Cubmaster, I think that part was a decision we made over the summer that needed to be revisited. We only really had two active leaders last year, the Cubmaster and myself. In prior years, the Pack had skipped the meeting before or after a Camp Out to let the leaders recharge. Last year, we didn't do that, and the Cubmaster and I burned out. This year we reinstated it, and I think it created confusion as to when we were meeting or not. Also, we scheduled an October Camp Out, and chose to participate in Cub Fun Day two weeks earlier (since they opened a camp-over option for us), so two campouts in one month killed us. So between meeting confusion and 2 campouts 14 days apart and we lost steam. Chanukah in November KILLED us... we normally have a Chanukah project as a meeting theme, and because of Thanksgiving Break, we took off that week, and had conflicting Chanukah parties with sparse turnout. Hopefully we can reconvene. I know we lost a few people, but we're hoping to get back on track. We also need to plan out more fun Pack Meetings. We've been doing a Den Breakout to prep a skit, doing skits, announcements, and awards. Last year we didn't do a Pack Meeting each month, so it was 3:1 Den:Pack Meetings, this year we are so it's 2:1 Den:Pack Meetings, which I think is too much administration to fun time. This year we have about 10 active leaders and 20 Active Cubs (a BIG uptick from 2 leaders, 12 cubs), so even if we've dropped off from our 30 Cubs at the beginning, we're looking good. The Pack after September just didn't look like the Pack we had in August at our last planning meeting (we did 3 summer planning meetings to put it all together). I think we'll be okay, I just don't want to lose more Scouts before year end. Thank you for the feedback everyone, I reviewed this before a discussion with our Cubmaster.

We had great recruiting, came on strong with our Dens in October. People were excited, joining each week, new people coming, everything was great. We had solid campouts, everything went smooth. We hit November, the clocks changed, and things started to fall apart. Leadership team hit strong, then we hit a snag in one of the Dens. We didn't have our communications super strong, and we lost a few Scouts. We're rechartering and not sure how many people should still be on the roster. Administratively, I think I'm going to drop anyone that looks gone, and if they show back up in January, fill out a replacement application for them (with our Unit Copy), and have the parent sign and blame it on a paperwork snafu. But for next year, I hate to see awesome recruiting go to pot. Extra fun, it's South Florida, so the weather is good year round, but we campout in October, January, February and either March or April, so 4 times/year. So November/December is the slowest part of the program year. Add Thanksgiving, December Holidays, and other commitments, and we have BAD attrition this time of year. I think the kids also go a little batty showing up at meetings in the dark. Any advice would be appreciated.