Scouter99

BSA is' date=' as usual, experiencing delayed development.[/quote']

While we're all making up wild stories, I'm going to say that I infer that BSA waited and waited because they were experiencing a lot of anxiety about having to hear all this whining. So, since their insurance is secondary, anyway, they let the COs go ahead and do it to a lot of units first and now it's time for the roundup: all those privately owned vans in use and by God who is the BSA to tell me whether or not it's safe to use my 1987 van with its perfectly fine duct tape fuel line and square knot seat belts.

<< Have you listed YOURS?, >>

 

 

No, and I don;t intend to.

 

 

 

The constant demands on the time of volunteers for pointless record keeping are a bad feature of BSA, in my opinion.

You can't find someone who isn't a martyr to do just the logging?

My experience with the OA is not very extensive (the last contact I had with it was about 40 years ago when I became an Ordeal member and really had nothing to do with it after that)' date=' so I have a question, and this is really about the current situation, not the new rules. So here's the question: When a Scout who is a member of the OA turns 18, I understand they can continue to be a member of the OA. But, I am assuming they must also continue their registration in a unit, right? Or wrong? And if I am right, does that mean that in order to continue as a member of the OA after turning 18, one must become an Assistant Scoutmaster, or else register as a "youth" in a Venture Crew? Or is there some special registration status where an "adult youth" (i.e. age 18, 19 or 20) may continue as a "youth" member of OA but have NO other affiliation with a Scouting unit?[/quote']

 

I don't mess with OA much either (just one more Scout place where I have to deal with some adults that annoy me) but my impression is that youth extends to 20 in the OA because it's youth led but 18-20-yr-olds are the age you want a national leader at, not a 16-yr-old.

I think this is just more of a reason the BSA should follow the traditional international scouting program model(some of the names vary country to country)

 

Under 10/11 Cubs

10/11-14/15 Boy Scouts

14/15-17 Venture Scouts

18-25/26 Rover Scouts

Where this gets me is international events. A lot of foreign camps reach out, and I am unclear whether our 18+ people (College Reserve, ASMs) can attend as "youth" since the foreign association's youth programs run through mid-20s, or if they're outta luck and can't go because BSA considers them adults. Or if they can go by themselves since they're adults legally and in the yes of BSA, or if they're welcome to come but I also have to go because they're youth in the eyes of the hosts.

As far as "adult participants" let's get real, it's clear they mean participants in the advancement system, who are legally adults but just in the crew to have fun. SMs of any age could earn Eagle Scout until the 1940s.

What does this mean for the Order of the Arrow?

 

Sentinel947

http://www.oa-bsa.org/pages/content/ask-the-chairman-does-the-change-in-adult-age-affect-the-order

Those that refuse to face the future, will simply recede into the past. STEM has parts that can take the scouts outdoors. Science is still based on nature and its myriad natural functions, many of which can only be truly experienced in the field. Instead of constantly crying how "outing" is being taken out of scouting, try announcing how STEM is being taken along with "outing", and moving forward.

 

There is really no reason for all the "chicken little" blather, except that some REFUSE to see that half full glass, but focus instead on it being half empty. Go out and find minerals and field test them for identity. Go out on flower hikes and use modern technology to help determine their variation and so on. Go on an animal hike and snap photos of them in their natural habitats and take pics of footprints and so on. Go on a landform hike and identify them in their natural state. Then take the raw data back to the STEM labs and improve the overall knowledge.

 

Or, get the lab rats to build you a retro time machine and go back and live in the past where everything was so much simpler.

Your comments here betray a basic ignorance of why Scouting was created, why it uses the outdoors, and therefore what it is.

Scouting is a direct reaction against modernization. Scouting is a direct reaction against modernization. Scouting is a direct reaction against modernization.

Scouting's forerunnersâ€â€The Woodcraft Indians, the Sons of Daniel Boone, the Wandervogel, YMCA campsâ€â€are direct reactions against modernization.

That is why we take boys into the woods. To combat the effects of urban living: Sloth, poor health, moral decay, child labor. To combat the ill effects of modern conveniences.

Your picture of STEM a la outdoors is just that: A picture, a fiction. It is not what STEM Scouts is, and it is not BSA's picture of STEM, so it has no bearing on the discussion here.

Skip the time machine and hop in your car to the local library where you can check out The Scouting Party: Pioneering and Preservation, Progressivism and Preparedness in the Making of the Boy Scouts of America and gain a sufficient understanding of what the BSA is before you jump to throw out the program that was designed in a specific way for a specific reason and has worked for over 100 years despite your myopic, faddish insistence that as a retrograde outdoors program in the era of Tesla and Edison it should have "receded into the past" 5 seconds after it was created.

Everything should be just fine. Something new to get kids more interested in the scout program. How can that be a bad thing? Cub packs are folding left and right around my area. Thanks to the "decision", my son and other boys are called gay, or faggots at school if they discuss scouting openly. Without cubs to refresh the troops, the troops will likely follow. We need something to put a more modern face on the organization.

Are you being funny, or do you really think that the best way to stop kids from calling Scouts faggots is to put them in lab coats and goggles?

If you feel the STEM initiates (with the introduction of such merit badges as Programming, Robotics, Multimedia, Digital Technology, etc.) are "just more hoops to jump through" and that their inclusion in the program is an unnecessary burden on "busy Scouters" then how do you feel about all the farming initiatives (with merit badges such as Farm Mechanics, Animal Science, Plant Science, Gardening, Veterinary Medicine, etc.) or the business skills initiatives (with merit badges such as American Business, American Labor, Salesmanship, Entrepreneurship, etc.) or the transportation initiatives (with merit badges such as Aviation, Railroading, Truck Transportation)? Are they all existing "hoops to jump through"? Are they just busywork added by industries with their own agendas to promote and have unnecessarily overloaded Scouters? I don't see how making the program more well-rounded and more up-to-date is a bad thing! How is having a Programming merit badge or a robotics summer camp any more of a misstep then having a Dentistry merit badge or a search & rescue summer camp?

 

I also disagree that STEM Scouts is totally adult driven. I know plenty of youth that would be interested in joining a youth organization that spends it's time building robots; designing, and creating websites or video games; exploring environmental sustainability issues and competing in science fairs; producing digital multi-media content; using and developing trade skills (such as welding or mechanics); etc... There are probably just as many (if not possibly more) youth that would be interested in that program as there are kids interested in a youth organization that focuses on camping, hiking, canoeing, rock climbing, fire building, and knot-tying.

 

I will admit that "STEM" is a bit of a "buzzword" these days. It is occasionally slapped on things as a marketing ploy or a way to seem "current" without being backed by any real or worthwhile content (having a "science day" where you mix baking soda and vinegar in a paper-mache diorama may look cool but it does not teach much about geologic processes or how volcanoes work). But the STEM initiates being introduced to the BSA aren't just fluff - they are worthwhile, include real skills, and kids enjoy them.

 

BSA had STEM programs long before STEM was even an antonym (with merit badges such as Electronics, Computers, Space Exploration, Chemistry, Nuclear Science, Surveying, etc.). They're just branding and focusing it now. Science and technology are growing fields of interest for youth, and are life skills that they need to have, and careers that they should be encouraged to explore. I think it's great that BSA isn't just staying stuck on 1910 methods and are offering programs and exploring methods to deliver their aims in a way that is connected to skills and subjects that are relevant in the 21st century.

Responding to STEM Scouts by arguing along the lines of the MB program is intellectually dishonest and you know it. And if MBs are enough, then we have enough STEM MBs and no need for STEM Scouts. The boys who want to do them can do them from a regular troop.

In either case, you, like skeptic, seem not to misunderstand what Scouting is. It is not a career prep program, that's why Explorers exists as a separate venture.

It is not a modernity relevance program, or else it was already a failure in 1910.

I thought the BSA strove to distance themselves from lookng like a paramilitary organization? Sounds hoky to me. We already have programs for military-inclined youth such as JROTC' date=' Young Marines, Sea Cadets, Civil Air Patrol, etc.[/quote']

 

Exploring has not been "scouting" for decades. It is administered by Learning for Life, which is a separate subsidiary of BSA. Explorer posts focus on a specific career, mostly police and fire departments, but at one point William and Mary had an archaeology Explorer post, airports have them, etc. No reason not to have them on an Army base. Some posts focused on high adventure type activities.

 

A factor (maybe The Factor, but I can't say with certainty or authority) was the ACLU's lawsuit against Chicago Schools, the Pentagon, and Housing and Urban Development over their chartering BSA units. Once they all settled, government agencies were forbidden to charter BSA units because the oath's line "do my duty to God" would mean that the government is forcing Little Johnny to make a religious oath. So, Explorers were spun off and are not scouts. That allowed Police, Fire, Army, schools, and other gov't institutions to continue reaching the youth they were reaching through Exploring.

 

Venturing was created to replace Exploring within Scouting, and its focus is solely high adventure.

 

 

It's a good thing the ACLU is around to save everyone from themselves.

Way back when, our Cub Pack was going to rent the school gym for a recruiting night of PWD, camp displays, games etc. We thought, hey, the Girl Scouts might like to take half the gym, so we looked up the Brownie leader (who happened to be the PTA president). When we suggested the joint "join Scouting Night", her response was , "Oh no, we have enough Scouts, we don't need any more". Her words. That was my introduction to the difference between the BSA and the GSUSA philosophies.

I suspect there are other GS leaders with a different outlook, but there you are.

There have been up to 5 GS troops at our CO at once, each one had enough girls. It's stupid.

I suspect this is a reasonable decision. My issue is the lack of supporting information to go with it. It's almost certainly true that it wasn't just "Oh' date=' look at what the NHTSA says, we should ban these. Likely there is somewhere either a white paper examining all the issues or a communique from an insurer giving a more detailed explanation. But the BSA (like most large organizations) underestimates the abilities of its members to understand real information, and rather than share the full reasons why it does something says trust us we know what's best, but you poor simpletons couldn't really understand it, now run along and play like good children.[/quote']

 

Or they realize we're almost all smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and realize that the insurance carrier said nay-no to these vans.

Sounds like a nightmare. Pretty much impossible for kid-serving agencies to lobby against without looking horrible, maybe once the first round of renewals comes through and a bajillion volunteers do the math the state will be asked to come to its senses.

"The Mid-Iowa Council' date=' BSA STEM action committee is excited in your interest in this event. It is a unique opportunity for the Ankeny School District and the Boy Scouts of America to work in tande m within the community. At the event we will also have information about a potential new Ankeny STEM Club that would do STEM activities once a quarter. We hope that you and your child are planning to attend to learn more about the growth of S.T.E.M. programs and education in our community."[/i']

Exporing STEM in Ankenny

March 7, 2015

http://www.ankenyschools.org/modules...203.7.2015.pdf

Don't tell Merlyn

When I was in Cub Scouts (for instance), I wore my uniform to school for picture day and for Pack meeting days. That almost never happens today.

And when it does http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dfe_1302195872

A few years back, a middle-schooler wore his uniform for picture day. He was bullied so badly that he decided to get even, so he filled 11 Coke bottles with gasoline, put his knife in his pocket, and off to school. The school resource officer walked in on him mid-scheme in the bathroom. The officer was stabbed several times while subduing the boy, but survived. At sentencing, he asked for leniency for the boy.

Tangential: Why worry about a CDL for 8 scouts?

The world is different.

I served as the tempo SM at summer camp. Scout (13, First Class, PL) comes to me and asks if I would please sign a note attesting to the idea that he knew his CPR skills for his Emergency Preparedness MB class. I asked why, he said he had forgotten to bring the CPR card (a prerequisite for the MB) from the class he took before camp. I said I would review the CPR stuff with him, go get your ScoutHandbook. He said he didn't bring it with him to camp. EPrep MBBooklet? Nope. Then go borrow a ScoutHB from one of his buds. He returned with the book and we sat down. OK, I said, turn to the CPR section. He couldn't find it, it wasn't listed in the table of contents. Ok, turn to the index. What's that? He said he had never used an index. I flipped to the index, mmmmmm, CPR, page ... and there you are. Scout was impressed (!). We went over the CPR skills, he was good to go with them, and I gave him a note after extracting a promise he would attend the CPR class in camp later in the week.

 

Index? Our Troop Scribe sent out emails about the past Troop meeting . Labeled them "Troop XYZ Minuets" Well, I thought, FINALLY our Scouts are learning some etiquette and social graces.....

As an early Millennial, let me just say that the later models are idiots. Truly. "Gifted" kids that don't know what an index is; ask me if they should use a pen or pencil; don't know their own phone numbers; miss events because "no one told me about it" in spite of notice via text, FB, Twitter, voicemail (if their mailbox isn't full) and email twice; are genuinely shocked that if they send a picture of their crotch to someone that person will and does forward it; one word: "promposal;" handwriting like a 2-yr-old because of computers; spelling like a 2-yr-old in spite of computers; incapable of discussing any issue for fear of hurting someone's feelings.

Yeah Most Millenials are still youth in the troops. I think we are getting Millenials confused with us Gen X'ers.(maybe some Gen Y's)

Gen Y is the same as Millennial.

I'd need to know what you mean by "credit for an activity" before I really felt comfortable in an opinion.

Do you mean your troop actually tracks their percentage of attendance for advancement?

Awwww, it couldn't have been much worse than this Scout statue

I won't do it without an explicit moderator "OK" but I could post the cover of a late 1950s UK magazine "The Scout" (British Boys' Life) that features a completely nude scout on a raft he's built Tom Sawyer style. Not frontal, but just imagine the deaths by heart attack if there were a boy's butt on the cover of Boys' Life.

Of course, even Boys' Life was once racy by today's standards:

http://boyslife.org/wayback/#issue=jsuwk3gy8lwC&pg=14

I'm pretty conservative, but the 1980s pushback against the 60s/70s sex culture took us to a point that is more prudish about non-sexual nudity than we ever were before the 60s.

This is just the whining of people who can't stand being criticized.

This is just the whining of people who can't stand open discussion.

I chucked ad-hoc patrols years ago. The issue is the scouts are the ones that want to create them. They like mixing it up. They don't like cliques in school. Everyone said people these days don't want to commit to a group like Rotary or Elks' date=' so why would scouts commit to a patrol for years?.[/quote']

 

Your millennials need to get with the times: http://www.marketplace.org/topics/your-money/service-clubs-get-gen-x-boost

 

 

My fault. I was not clear. There was an announcement that a site giving all the rules about uniforms and insignia would be up and running a couple of years ago. The current "Guide" and been patched and patched, and is not a particularly complete or useful tool.

Oh! Yeah, that interactive site? Terrible.

I'm on board with Qwasze's sentiment in the over-the-top area but I'd suggest you just tell the kid to set up a pup tent then egg the guy's house for the same effect with less effort.

Forward your offending committee members this video from BSA National "Guardians of the Gate"

Boy, that on-line uniform and insignia site would be a nice thing to have delivered on.

Uhhhhh http://www.scoutstuff.org/emb-honor-guard.html#.VMm1IS6b9m0

Like all ethics, scout leader ethics are subjective and inconsistent, get used to it.

I order to have two deep leadership at last weekend's outing, two young siblings showed up and pretty much messed around in everything the Boy Scouts were trying to do. I don't know if it would have been better to allow the disruption or just call the event off.

 

Stosh

Be mean to them and make ugly faces while no one is looking, then stand close to wherever you don't want them to be. (This is theoretical, thankfully I've never had to actually solve this issue)

The G2SS specifically talks about a child who does not meet the age guidelines, so Cub and Webelos age siblings who accompany a parent are almost always going to meet the test of being age appropriate.

 

The G2SS also describes Family Camping as kosher, and that probably accurately describes the situation where a sibling accompanies a parent: "Family camping is an outdoor experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection policies apply."

Cub camping and family camping are not the same as scout camping, and troops that conflate the two are doing a disservice to their Scouts.

Family Camping has its own section precisely because it is different than what a normal Boy Scout camping experience should be.

I never took that as a flat-out "don't". But as a "buyer beware."

Sometimes your back is up against a wall, and options are few. In my crew, I sometimes don't get that essential female adult without a youngn' in the mix.

I find making this compromise is hardest on the siblings of the tag-a-long. Even while camping 300' away, they can find a way to be bothered by it.

I make it clear that the parent must be responsible for the tag-a-long at all times. The kids, even if they were willing to baby-sit, did not sign up to do so.

Exactly.