Scouter99

The whining immature smarty-pants comments on Scouting Mag's FB and blog comments are a real goldmine. I don't see why anyone is so from-my-cold-dead-hands passionate about this phrase when it was never said by BP, and is not the line from Hillcourt, and can easily be replaced by the actual quote without changing the meaning or screwing with Highlights. Just a bunch of ignorant babies.

Update:

I tried explaining why we needed to go camping without parents and siblings always tagging along. She said the committee had decided some time ago to allow it, probably when I was out with the broken leg, and again thinks it's a great way to recruit new adults and have extra people around in case of emergencies.

So direct her to the Guide to Safe Scouting:

"If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx

Family camping is not Scouting, it's the opposite of Scouting and works against our aim to produce young men who can do things for themselves. Make 1 or 2 campouts per year a family camping event to release the steam on that, make it clear the rest are troop camps.

The issue here is that you are in charge of program, but your CC is steering and she has no idea what Scouting is about. Assert your authority: Make a list of the issues, why they're wrong, and what the right way is and get the troop behind you. If they don't want real Scouting or they don't get behind you, then you stand up in front of them and tell them why you're resigning as SM and have a nice life.

Speaking just about US labor unions...

Another point, scouts were more likely from middle and upper middle income families and not union families.

Scouting arose in great part due to concerns among men of the era of the effects of urban life on the men of the nation, upon which, of course, the future of the nation rested. It was actually the working class who were most profoundly feeling these effects, thus Scouting aimed for these boys. War orphans, dropouts, families whose parents were absent due to work. The Woodcraft Indians, E.T. Seton's forerunner to Scouting, also targeted these boys; it's founding campout was by invitation to boys who were spending their free time vandalizing Seton's property.

No, there is no reason that you can't do both jobs. Committee members don't command each other so it's not like you're setting things up for some insubordination showdown or mutiny.

Tell the people who have a problem that any one of them is welcome to take one of the two jobs and watch them all slink away mumbling about how busy they are.

AND: Welcome to the forum!

They were to be committed adults that we trained in every way needed to be active leaders. They weren't going to be called ASMs because they were most likely only temporary to get the troop to where the SM felt it needed to be for the boys to lead and then a few would continue on as ASM.

I can see where any number of adults might fall upon this solution from an adult-driven program perspective. It is not necessary at all.

Put the boys in patrols, tell the PLs, SPL, ASMs, and Committee how things are to be, and it will happen. The adults must imply resign themselves to and embrace that it will be bumpy, and that the bumps are the lesson. The aims of Scouting are the lessons learned, patrols are a method--the two are different. Your advocates for a Leader Patrol think the goal is to have perfect patrols ASAP because they think the patrols are the goal rather than the path.

I have talked to the SM quite a bit about the meaning of a boy-led troop I think he gets it.

If he hasn't done the homework, then he doesn't know. None of the position patches imbue knowledge, only study does that.

 

My fault, I missed that.

Odd the way this is laid out. After the December 2015 page is a page with 2016 and 2017 religious dates, then a page with 2017 and 2018 religious dates, and finally two pages of 2014-2015 religious dates.

Again sorry

RS

It is laid out in a dumb way. I imagine it only lists the major Christian holidays as well as federal holidays because they're the ones that are also going to be school holidays that all units, Christian or not, will need to grapple with (every unit I know of doesn't meet on school holidays)

In the bigger sense (where my "grow up" was placed, not just to you, sorry), I'm simply tired of every person with any quirk turning it into victimhood for themselves, or of people without any quirk white-knighting for no reason.

Go to Wood Badge, they say, it's the best training in Scouting, they say.

Ok' date=' I think I need to give a little back story as this conversation has gone a little awry. Before we joined this troop there were only 7 boys. They claimed to be boy-led but it turns out their definition was to let the boys decided what to do and the SM did all of the footwork to get them there. I don't think the words "go ask your SPL or PL" had ever been said, it was usually "go ask the SM". A new SM took over and is pushing to get us into a true boy-led troop. We have grown to over 30 boys in the last 2 years which has brought in a wonderful group of parents who want to help. Unfortunately the SM is running into the "this is how we always did it" mentality from many of the original parents which is creating obstacles. The original 7 boys have very little leadership experience so it is hard to tell all the younger boys to go ask them. The idea behind the parent patrol was not to create a competition between parents and boys, it was to create the image of how it is supposed to work. We need a way to give the older boys the concept and get the younger boys ready for when it is their turn to lead. The "mentors" will be there to help all of the boys through this transistion and give them the guidance they need to be able to become leaders. All parents in our troop that interact with the boys or go on camp outs need to have YPT. The new mentors will also all be registered and go through basic training as well as SM training. I envision the mentors will only be around for a year or so and then slim down to a couple ASMs.[/quote']

 

If your new SM wants to implement boy led then all he needs to do is first make sure he himself understands what it is, not simply what his idea of it is.

How does he know? He has to do his homework. A copy of The Handbook for Patrol Leaders by "Greenbar" Bill HIllcourt (http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Patro.../dp/B003JDR8LY) and The Patrol System by Roland Philipps (free at http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/Patrol%20System.pdf)

That is what boy led and the patrol system are.

 

Once your SM actually knows what boy led means, then he can implement it by simply telling his boy leadership the plan, empowering them, holding them accountable, and on the other side explaining it to the adults around him and telling them to get on board or get off at the next stop, whether or not they've gone and got their Wood badge baubles, I mean beads.

God, grow up. The index in the back of the calendar includes all holidays from Judaism, Ba'hai, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism (for all 5 people in the US that are Zoroastrians), Sikhism, Jainism (for all 3 Jainists) and a ton from Christianity which aren't marked on the calendar pages themselves, either.

 

The problem with the "kids will be kids" approach is that in our case (see the 2010 post), it sent one of those kids to the urgent care. No, this is not "slug bug" or something else that is painful but relatively harmless. This can result in permanent injury. Would we react the same way if instead of "sack tapping" they were taking turns poking each other in the eye? Nope. This kind of thing is a serious issue requiring a serious response.

Reading the 2010 post, I don't see why you needed a bunch of internet strangers to tell you that a guy who sexually harassed and groped crew mates should be kicked out. If I were an adult in your unit and you hadn't, I would've left until you were gone.

As far as the gravedig/rehash from the other week, wrapping up the basically harmless teenage game of nut tapping with false allegations of abuse is a big goofy conflation.; they're separate issues.

I wouldn't tolerate nut tapping if I saw it, but it's not a kick-this-kid-out issue by itself.

We avoid Christian holidays because you're not going to get anyone to show up with 73% of the population celebrating that holiday. If we're talking about a Jewish holiday, we do not have the same utilitarian issue with just 2% of the population, up to 20% of whom are actually atheists and a further 20% of whom adhere to a faith other than Judaism.

There's no reason to not hold a unit event on Yom Kippur unless the unit has Jewish members.

BANANA REPUBLIC - still around as a hipster clothier catering to the young and too-skinny' date=' but when it opened, it marketed travel/outdoors/"adventure" type clothing, as well as some authentic military surplus. I used to enjoy reading their catalogs in the mid-1980s. Times have changed.[/quote']

 

Same for American Eagle Outfitters. When I was a kid, it was a store for my dad: Canoes and snowshoes hanging from racks on the walls, mounted animal heads, etc. with a focus on outdoorsy clothes.

Now it's just "American Eagle" and their idea of a large shirt is anyone else's medium.

 

OR..... he read "rocket fuel stove" rather than just "rocket stove". I've made that mistake a couple of times and put my cat into orbit.

 

Stosh

Or I was pulling your leg. That was fun.

The rules seems to ban smudge pots for lighting purposes. Correct? My council camp uses them extensively for OA purposes.

That's really quite funny given that your council uses the same policy that bans their smudge pots to make everyone take some ridiculous stove training. (wasn't that you complaining about that?)

Calico has it.

If I get a BSA plate, I can't honk at jerks anymore.

There was a similar effort for a BSA plate in Virginia a few years back

It's ongoing, there's no time limit on gathering the pre-paid applications.

For fun I tried out a new rocket stove I made (at camp, of course), Worked really well burning only grass, leaves and twigs. I can see leaving the Coleman home next year and saving on the price of white gas and propane.

Stosh

Tut, tut.

"Prohibited Chemical-Fueled Equipment:

Equipment that is handcrafted, homemade, modified, or installed beyond the manufacturer’s stated design limitations or use. Examples include alcohol-burning “can†stoves, smudge pots, improperly installed heaters, and propane burners with their regulators removed."

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-013WB.pdf

I think it would be a real draw to offer Wilderness First Aid certification to the adult leaders during summer camp.

Our council does that, but we don't camp there.

The training sessions I've been to during summer camp, from YPT to Weather Hazzards to Climb Safely, have been horrid. Disinterested staffers who probably took the assignment to get into the AC for a couple hours doing a half-way job with a group of equally disinterested crusty hardheads who know better.

If rank is given out for time in grade and parents doing the work' date=' what message does that give other scouts? Is this the BSA program today? Are POR's supposed to teach management and/or leadership? Or are they an excuses to wear a patch?[/quote']

 

Accountability in positions of responsibility would go a long way in curbing paper Eagles, and therein lies the irony: The troops get the paper Eagles they create themselves. Scouts will do exactly as little as you let them in a PoR, and if you sign them off for doing nothing, they'll do nothing. The Guide to Advancement makes it difficult to deny credit for PoR, but I think its guidance is the correct guidance--it's fair to the scout and unit.

In the end, the entitlement mentality central to postmodern thinking means that accountability is bullying. People aren't brave enough to hold people accountable anymore, and the ones who do are regarded as hardassed jerks--parents will transfer Johnny or councils will gladly overrule you.

Likewise in my unit, our Assistant Scoutmaster's also conduct Scoutmasters conferences due to the size of my troop. 80+ Scouts.

Which is why your SM is having difficulty doing right by his boys, and is the reason BP opined on the best size for a troop:

"The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two.(Aids to Scoutmasterhip)" As quoted at WOSM. (emphasis mine)

Scouter205,

As others have done a good job noting, SMCs are barely in the purview of ASMs, certainly not JASMs.

I felt really insecure as a 20-yr-old ASM, I was discussing it with a friend whose advice set me straight: At your age, it's basically your role to keep up friendships with the boys, promote participation and have fun. When something serious is going on, get an older guy. In the meantime, you're uniquley positioned to be a confidante and have a better perspective of what the boys are really thinking about the program, and relay that to the SM.

Once the last kid that was 10 when you turned 18 is gone, you can start to really begin being perceived by the kids as an adult. Until then you're better used (and you'll enjoy yourself more) as more of a super-scout who's along for the fun but can also drive scouts and gear, and count as leadership for trips.

What a pinhead.

While watching a program on federal agents violating an indian reservation to destroy a crop of hemp, they discussed that it would actually be quite smart to allow cultivation of hemp because it would naturally cross-pollinate and wreck the potency of growing operations.

Unit leaders are as much the problem as crappy camps. In 2011, the Horsemanship MB requirements changed to the inclusion of a 60-foot straight cantor and 30-foot half-circle cantor. Apparently a cantor is very hard to manage, and the instructors decided they couldn't do it in a week, so the Program Director announced that because of the safety issues the boys would all be leaving with a partial and would need to do the cantoring at home.

All I heard for the rest of the week was Scoutmasters talking about how they would just be signing off that requirement as soon as they got their gear unloaded.

One of my sayings is “Sometimes, it’s ok to break a rule, but make sure you know why you’re breaking it.â€Â

 

For example, at summer camp this year, they offered a “Chaplain's Award.†It involved saying grace at a meal, holding an in-camp devotional, and participating in the scout's own service. One of our Webelos Crossovers told me he wanted to do it and I encouraged him to go for it. The first wasn’t a big deal, but standing in front of the whole troop and reading a devotional (he choose from some I already had) took some courage. Even more so to participate in the Scout’s Own service in front of the whole camp (all the other participants were Life Scouts or higher).

 

When they gave him the physical award at the closing campfire, it was obviously not an “official†award – it was a simple ¾†metal shepherd’s crook pin. He came to me beaming and asked me where it goes on his uniform. I wasn’t about to tell him he couldn’t wear it. He now wears it where I suggested - pinned on his left pocket flap, right beneath his Religious Award knot. If I told him it wasn’t for uniform wear, it would probably be at the bottom of his sock drawer somewhere.

 

Disclaimer: the crossover in question was my youngest son, but I like to think I would have handled it the same way with any of our scouts.

 

Good solution in the short term. It bugs me when 10- and 11-yr-olds cross over and come in wearing Cub conservation awards in weird places, but I couldn't ever bring myself to deflate a kid.

The 22-yr-old, however, I like to give a hard time. I mean, really.

If those injured/inactive Scouts have to earn the merit badges' date=' then the whole Troop becomes ineligible and all the other Scouts are punished due to circumstances beyond their control.[/quote']

I think the way it's written means your unit must earn an amount equal to the number of scouts, not each scout earns at least one. But let's take it that it means each scout must earn one. . .

I'm really sick of the mindset that if a person or unit does not meet the requirements, then they're being "punished" if they don't get the award. Awards are created to encourage certain behaviors, the requirements are the behaviors. If you didn't do it, you didn't do it, that's not punishment, it's real life, grow up. If you want trophies for everyone for nothing, turn your troop into a little league team.

The existence of an award does not entitle you to it, meeting the requirements does. You earn it or you don't. If you fail to earn it, then you have a goal for next year.

But my own personal experience is that most folks will let things escalate pretty far simply because they don't want to be bad guys. If and when the time comes' date=' you will have to be the bad guy. I don't think the time will come, but if it does, be ready. Barry[/quote']

Yep. Be ready to be labeled the villain for daring to stand up for the right thing next to a drunk SM.

 

You can also view the old Boys Life articles via Google Books.

Sep 1911: http://books.google.com/books?id=twUG1X-LzB8C&pg=PA3&source=gbs_toc&cad=2#v=twopage&q&f=false

Yeah, it's framed in from Google on Boys' Life's website, note the blank Google ad space at the bottom of issues on boyslife.org.

Per this link, if you have Firefox and install the FireShot addin, you can print from Google Books: http://www.ehow.com/how_2311479_print-google-books.html

 

Disclaimer: I haven't tried it....

Thanks, I'll have to look into that!

Yes' date=' I left it alone a day or two because I thought someone else would answer. I also felt kind of bad that it sent the discussion on a different path. The two adult policy is probably the most misunderstood and misused BSA policy.[/quote']

And it's written so plainly!