Scouter99

Scouter99, is that the standard we apply now? Anyone who disagrees with some aspect of BSA policy is invited to leave?

Really?

When it gets to the point that you want to ignore the rules and make ridiculous equivalencies to progress a political movement? Yes, I think it's probably best that one save himself the agony and find the organization he should have joined in the first place: One that shares his values, where he will be happy. You and are are discussing the very Super Moderator who shut down a thread because he doesn't like what people think about the heroes of his pet movement, is that where this forum is, pro-gay or shut up?

The BSA prohibits the use of Confederate flags in patches, that's a "political act" Does NJ think that proponents of the stars-n-bars should be able to march in uniform at the KKK rally by some ludicrous reasoning that because BSA has made an internal policy decision they are acting the same as the protesters?

The double standard of starry-eyed "progressive" agents provocateur who think the rules apply to everyone except their cause du jour is obnoxious. The BSA is an ideological movement, it has heard the arguments, it has made a democratic decision. Scouts/Scouters can continue to work the internal structures (which is fine by me), or, yes, they can do the logical thing and find a movement whose ideology matches their own out of the box. This malicious public campaigning that NJ is cheering isn't coming from a good place whether its from that burnt-out McGrath standing behind his poverty-stricken human shields, gloryhound Wahls, or sadistic tyke Tessier.

But I will tell you what is definitely a political act: The retention and enforcement' date=' in 2014, of a policy that says no openly gay person may be a leader in the BSA. That is absolutely a political act, and it is being done in the name of the BSA by its national leaders, some of whom wear uniforms at least part of the time. And even when they are not wearing uniforms, they are acting in the name of the BSA. So I don't think they are setting a good example for the idea that one is not supposed to act in a political manner while in uniform, or while otherwise "representing" the BSA.[/quote']

 

So go join the BPSA.

 

From Bryan at the blog explaining the change:

Someone asked

"...it raises a question for me. If the idea is to make it easier to determine which form is needed by labeling them by location rather than activity, you’ve neglected Troop HA. Many (most?) troops don’t depend on national bases for HA, and many don’t depend on council programs (which would indicate which forms to use) either.

Does National care if unit HA participants have a health evaluation at or beyond X level? Then national needs to indicate which on the AHMR web page.

Where I’m defining unit HA based on the definition in the National Outdoor Awards: Adventure badge.

That being “A backpacking trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food resupply

“A canoeing, rowing, or sailing trip lasting three or more days and covering more than 50 miles without food resupply

“A whitewater trip lasting two or more days and covering more than 20 miles without food resupply

“A climbing activity on open rock . . . that includes camping overnight “"

Bryan's answer was:

"Unit high adventure greater than 72 hours would be the decision point for completing a pre-participation physical. Check out the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety for more planning guidance."

So McGrath's claim that he only wanted to be a Scoutmaster and wasn't trying to make a political statement is out the window' date=' huh?[/quote']

 

McGrath's claims about his motives have been lies from day 1. He's gay, he knows the rules. He did a cross-country bike ride to protest the policy last year and started a website to threaten BSA officials while documenting the ride. He led the parade last year knowing he couldn't, he was reprimanded. He founded a troop knowing he couldn't with a church that also wanted to purposefully break the rules, called the news, and got kicked out on purpose.

 

McGrath is vicious trash with no aim in mind except to set BSA on fire.

I wouldn't personally spend the ink/paper on printing them for every parent when 80% will go right in the trash. If you've got a printer or copier at the meeting place I'd just say they're available for anyone who wants one.

Just in time for pederast and stalwart Jim Jones ally Harvey Milk to get his own postage stamp.

Liberace's house!

Quentin Crisp's apartment.

Have them show off with one-handed bowlines around their waists

I think it was an opportunistic opinion piece.

Actually, as the article noted, the effects of therapeutic culture have been a matter of study for decades.

I've uploaded a more in-depth discussion of its genesis and effects taken from a history of the 80s, Transforming America from Columbia Univ Press. It's 5.5 pages, so not a long read. It begins on the very bottom of page 151 under the heading "The Therapeutic Culture" https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B49...it?usp=sharing

 

Whose plan, do you think?

Pascal Tessier, Zach Wahls, David and Geoff McGrath, August and Liam Easton-Calabria, and so on

Just to add' date=' while membership may be up in Utah, we just lost an entire council here in New Jersey. And I don't think that's the end of it. I don't think it is going to make the surrounding districts and councils, which have absorbed the units from the Central New Jersey Council, any healthier financially. If more councils collapse, I see no reason to believe that the remaining councils will be able to absorb what's left. I am not talking about councils merging in an orderly way, with a plan for how to manage a larger number of units and a wider geographic area. What seems to have happened here is simply chaos, and I am afraid that what will follow is even greater chaos.[/quote']

 

All according to plan.

USSSP has a program: http://usscouts.org/InternetScoutPatch.asp

Give your scumbag friend a chance to do the right thing, and if he refuses, he'd ought to have a lonely Eagle ceremony.

False. You should read the document you reference. "Scouts should not have access. Their interaction with the Scoutmaster in discussing work on a badge' date=' and obtaining a counselor's name,is an important part of the merit badge plan."[/quote']

Context clues, Ding Dong. The line you quoted out of context refers to online lists of MB counselors (which is why it is located under the heading "Web-Based Counselor Lists") The specific prohibition against Scout access is obviously to ensure the system is followed by preventing Scouts from calling MBCs before having the discussion with his SM. It does not refer to MBC contact information in the broad sense.

 

I think you need to read the "Guide to Advancement, 2013 edition". It says that identifying at least one counselor is the responsibility of the unit leader.

"Identifying" one MBC doesn't mean calling him for the scout or doing any of the rest of the scout's work for him.

 

 

"Earning merit badges should be Scout initiated, Scout researched, and Scout learned. It should be hands-on and interactive, and should not be modeled after atypical school classroom setting. Instead, it is meant to be an active program so enticing to young men that they will want to take responsibility for their own full participation."

 

Wapa wapa wapa wapa wapa wapa wapa wapa

I know the idea of your snowflakes making their own decisions and phone calls is scary to you, and that the idea of the resulting young man is even more scary, but your fears about empowered youth don't change the program.

For your son's situation' date=' run away. Find someone else. You don't want your son to associate with that person anyway. Heck, you might find the next counselor won't talk to your son until he has already filled out the worksheet. Counselor attitudes are everywhere on the map. But you don't want your son dealing with mean spirited ones. [/quote']

That's funny: people who do the job differently than you are "mean-spirited"?

You despise worksheets, but take them anyway, does that make you "lazy"? You think they rob the Scout of the full experience, but you take them anyway, does that make you a "cheat"?

 

The troop should be providing the name/phone of a counselor or choice of counselors. A Scout should not have to "find" one.

False. Recruiting and maintaining lists of MB counselors is the responsibility of the Council and District. Finding and contacting MB Counselors from the approved list is the responsibility of the Scout.

Merit Badges are about more than " simply providing opportunities to learn skills" and "there is more to them than an introduction to lifetime hobbies, or the inspiration to pursue a career."

They're about personal growth. And a big part of that is the Scout being a big boy and getting the counselor list all by himself, discussing the badge with the SM mano-a-mano, and calling and meeting the MB counselor for himself.

BSA has aims and it has methods. The methods are not ends unto themselves. MBs are not the aim, the growth achieved by a specific process is the aim.

 

Sitting down at a desk and filling out worksheets is neither the method nor the aim. The MB program is explained here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/guidetoadvancement/themeritbadgeprogram.aspx

If your son did all the work before engaging a counselor, then the guy isn't a "counselor" is he? He becomes a rubber stamp. The worksheets are unofficial conveniences, nothing more.

Several people, as usual in Scouting, referring to a rule/definition and tossing in the word "National" for gravitas, but with no link or quote.

In regards to Scouters and "rules," I'm an adopted Missourian: Show me. It may well be the case that wherever two units are, it becomes a Council event, but I personally find that hard to believe--that makes our troop open house a council event, and as follows we could offer shooting sports. Doesn't pass the smell test.

Nor do I think your dual registration matters. I'm also registered in a district-level position. That doesn't make what I'm doing on my own or within my troop a district action.

You can't. It is the position of the BSA that belief in a higher power is part and parcel with being the kind of man we aim to produce. To admit atheists, we must change that belief, or resign ourselves to advancing substandard scouts and bestowing Eagle upon substandard young men.

The BSA is an ideological movement--certain ideals are at the heart of what we do, and they guide why we do what we do.

Not every movement is for everyone. I am not a Methodist, I do not share theology with Methodists, I don't go to the Methodist church. I am not a veteran, I am not interested in joining the VFW. I am not a Republican, I am not going to the Republican convention and demand they change the platform to fit my beliefs. I am not an atheist, I do not share ideology with atheists, I am not going to beat in the door of the local atheist club.

And it is my great hope that no Knights of Columbus are sitting around flipping channels thinking "hmmm, how can I alter the nature of the KoC's to the least common denominator so everyone can join."

Nor do I sit around flipping channels thinking to myself "grr, what a bunch of so-n-sos those Knights of Columus are, with their friggin cheap beer and their friggin Catholics-only"

Not every organization is for every person--that's not intolerance, it's not hate, it's not prejudice, it's not fear, it's not irrational. It's human evolution and philosophical life.

3rd - The law and oath are different depending on the country.

They are, and they virtually all include God. Of the various Scout oath translations collected at USSP, the only country whose oath doesn't include God is Israel http://usscouts.org/internationaloaths.asp

This is probably the case because WOSM requires it for membership:

"Article II, paragraph 2: 'Adherence to a Promise and Law'

All members of the Scout Movement are required to adhere to a Scout Promise and Law reflecting, in language appropriate to the culture and civilization of each National Scout Organization and approved by the World Organization, the principles of Duty to God, Duty to others and Duty to self, and inspired by the Promise and Law conceived by the Founder of the Scout Movement in the following terms: The Scout Promise

'On my honour I promise that I will do my bestâ€â€

To do my duty to God and the King (or to God and my Country)

To help other people at all times and

To obey the Scout Law.'"

I actually find it quite amusing that the people who most want to change BSA usually don't realize that the BSA is already the most inclusive scouting organization in the world. Go to Wikipedia, and look up "Scouting in [X country]" Peru, England, France, Russia, first world, third world--whichever, wherever. You will find that almost all of them have multiple Scouting associations based along ethnic and religious lines. The BSA is more open and tolerant than scouting associations anywhere in the world.

FAQ for shooting sports at each program level of scouting: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/ShootingSports/shooting_faq.aspx

"For any questions regarding these documents, please call or email Curt.Palmer@Scouting.org"

Frankly, nothing has changed between last year and this year, the same people are doing the organizing and planning, the same people are coming, the same activity will be offered. It doesn't sound like it was ever a district/council activity, so you never should have been allowed to offer BB gun shooting in the past.

@Scouter99' date=' we're not trying to bash you, buddy. But it must really be no fun in your local Council with all those good ol' boyz and incompetent Scouts. Sorry, I had to.[/quote']

Hey, I wasn't born crabby

Because' date=' really, watching an articulate scouter set up a fire lay that won't light with 10 matches beats watching an inarticulate youth set up one that lights with 1 or less. [/quote']

 

You're not hearing me because you like this idea: Maybe where you are they find boys who are inarticulate but can light a 1-match fire. For the 3rd time now: Where I am, they pick boys who are both inarticulate and cannot light a fire with 10 matches, but daddy gave $5,000 to FoS, or ran the camp 20 years ago, or was the RT commissioner. I don't care for the idea because it wouldn't bear results here.

OA is the worst of them all, hahaha!

Like I said, I'm not opposed to it if somewhere there are people doing it right. I don't personally see the point, frankly, so it's not something I care about implementing, but when they get youth to do something adults ought to be doing around here (all scouting is local ), it's a crapshow.

My general experience with youth put into adult roles is that they're connected incompetents who've been put there by adults who are more interested in making kids feel good or putting their connected kid on display than they are in a quality job being done. If you've got serous youth and it worked, fine, but I don't trust the Council or District good ole boys clubs around here (or 90% of the rest of the country) to pick the right youth much less look for them to begin with.

I'm not so sure if that's their motivation exactly..... no matter if one is more harried than the other' date=' I [u']think [/u]their point is more that the parents set the family's schedule, not the other way around......

In either case, it's clear your committee doesn't understand scouting. How you deal with it depends on a lot of stuff, ranging from tossing up your hands, to explaining how it is and pointing out the door to dissenters.

Short spot on the scouts' local station: http://newjersey.news12.com/news/new-jersey-boy-scouts-rescue-tv-anchor-ann-curry-from-new-york-mountain-after-she-injures-leg-1.8002193