Krampus

I guess I'll just have to ship my boys down to Texas.  

Don't laugh, but we typically get troops from OK and AR to take our NYLT during winter break and spring break. They don't like what their council does so they register for ours.

and I'll bet most DE's struggle seeing that too.  

When I think about it, it must be tough doing a job that you yourself clearly see as devalued, while getting all sorts of negative pressure from your boss.

 

From my perspective, about the only direct and clear benefit from some of our DE's have been an occasional hand off of paperwork..... such as meeting the DE at say a University of Scouting to hand off the recharter papers, and thereby saving me a drive into the office....  I believed of course there's more.... it's just hard to see.

Good point! It is a bit like being a corpsman...you know you are going to be in the hot zone, being fired at and with little suppressing cover. Takes a special kind of person to do that day in and day out and love it.

From your explanation, it sounds like there is a huge disconnect as to what units expect from a DE, what we need from a DE and what a DE is truly asked to do from council....which is sad. I think the role (DE) could be very valuable to units if were revised to actually be a servant to units and not a slave to council.

in another thread, @scoutpro66 (maybe I have their tag name wrong) posted a detailed description just yesterday of the job, season by season.

Basically, they are run ragged

vacation is frowned upon

they are expected to do stuff that they know does not much good or that they know is not wanted or needed (such as FOS & spring recruiting for Cubs)

no time for family, lots of divorce

Thanks for the reply. I suspected as much. I can be honest in that, from a unit perspective, I don't see how the DE impacts me:

• FOS: Units see this as a burden and not really something that impacts us. I understand what the money is used for but it really does not impact us. It is seen as BSA asking for "yet another check". If the rate of return is so low then perpetuating this fund raising model is silly. Time and money could be better spent on a better way to raise money.
• Spring Recruitment: Affects Cubs but not Boy Scouts...at least in my area. In all my years of Cubs I never had the DE involved in any of our recruiting. Our success or failure was all our own. Same goes for other packs in our district. The DE has never been around nor provided them with any (useful) materials, strategies or insights. This usually comes from volunteers or word of mouth between units. The DE is MIA on this.
• Summer: Never seen the DE. HE's usually hob-nobbing with the guys in Irving.
• Fall Recruitment: See spring recruitment.
• December/Recharter: This is the only time I get anything from my DE. It is usually a poorly worded email sent out to all units reminding us to get our recharter and JTE paperwork in. He does not bother to look to see that we've turned our paperwork in early, nor does he acknowledge that our unit (every year) has turned in our completed paperwork early. We *do* end up with the bulk chastisement that goes out to units who submitted late. Go figure.

I can sympathize with working in non-profits. I did that for ten years before my current career path. I know it is thankless work where you get burned out fast. However, I struggle to see how the DE serves my unit or my members. It seems he's all about 1) raising money for council, 2) managing paperwork, 3) trying to implement membership strategies that are of no use to the units in the field.

Is that it? Is that all they do?

Okay, you have a good program.  Boy like it.  We don't have a good program and the boys don't like it.  Where is the disconnecting occurring?  Why can't we have a good program, too?  Where's the program validation not happening?

At the risk of quoting myself I think it goes back to the discussion we are having in the outdoor adventure thread. BSA training needs to be more standardized and available. What really bugs me about some BSA training is that their manuals are not very substantive. For example, when discussing leadership the leadership section may say something like "Discuss key leadership principles here" and not actually give you leadership principles to discuss; so the instructor lacking leadership background will have no clue (for lack of stated examples) on what to discuss.

I don't think you will ever get the courses exactly the same, @@Stosh, but if we could get close it would be nice.

My guys like NYLT. It is usually well taught in my area. It *is* pricey for a week of camping and bad cafeteria food. Same cost as summer camp without any MBs or activities. I'd like to see a cost statement to see where the money is being spent.

BSA is their own worst enemy in that the process is cumbersome, redundant and time-consuming.

@@Eagle94-A1, I am curious, what is burning out the DEs? What's the role description and job requirements that's taking its toll on these guys?

DE is never around. Never answers email, never attends RT, never seen him at a district or council event. Could not pick him out of a line up. Might as well not have a DE.

The chairman is one of those WBers that gives the group a bad name. Egotistical, self-centered and self-serving. Attends RTs but treats them as if he were king and we were in his court. Is more interested in hitting FOS and JTE metrics than putting on a good program.

Commissioner is never present. Like the DE I could not pick him out of a line up.

The district is run by "underlings" willing to do the Dark Lord's bidding. I guess they all hope to get one of the bigger jobs one day. All have been around longer than dirt and would rather run things the way they've always been done than do anything new.

I see Baloo as being the most basic stepping stone for camping.  Many times OWLS is combined with Baloo by many districts.  

Just from a time perspective, if we (as experienced scouters) were going to reorganize training, I'd hope we would do a few things:

1. Increase the value, decrease the time commitment.
2. Make the training complete and relevant.
3. Standardize how it is taught.
4. Increase availability.
5. Make re-certification easy and fast.
6. Eliminate redundancy.
7. If they cost money, make them cost-effective.

That's my input. I think much of the current training can be re-used, but let's eliminate things that may not be needed OR that could be combined if only to reduce the time we spend training.

This is not about other things that the BSA may do that are, arguably, just as bad or worse than this. Even if there are other things that are just as bad or worse, that does not make this a good idea. And certainly this is not the first thread that has ever appeared in this forum criticizing some of things that BSA National and/or councils do to bring in funds.

Help me understand, what was bad about this?

Since the corporations who withdrew funds -- for reasons which I won't name because someone will think it is political and move this to I&P -- have not come back yet, how is BSA supposed to get the word out about fund raising for units and councils if they don't take some valuable print space to do it?

How do you think BSA should get the word out to their members about fund raising? What would be "better" way to do it?

Krampus, Trail's End is something explicitly sponsored by Councils, much as cookies are by GSUSA.

 

In this case, the marketing is a back-door.  What I find untrustworthy about this is a senior professional using what has become his blog space to shill something else.  For me, that's a step across the integrity door.

Do you disagree with Bryan allowing his space to be used for a paid spot to provide room for a BSA-sponsored fund raiser? How it that any different than BSA pushing Trail's End or any other fund raising program they hock in BL or Scouting?

For me there was not line crossed. They clearly marked the post as a sponsored item. They did not mask it in any way. The piece was written just like any other piece suggesting ways units can make money. Read the popcorn or greenery bits he's written in the past; same thing.

When did making money and being honest about the source of a sponsorship become code for lack of integrity?

@@cyclops bought up a poorly run website as an example. I commented on how that website was "fixed". No one mentioned anything about politics, just how poorly the thing was implemented, nor did anyone denigrate any political affiliation.

I think we can have a brief conversation about bad websites, using the example that was used (because it is the truth and apolitical), without moving the whole thread to I&P. Or have we just become *that* over sensitive?

No, they don't work for you.

 

They work for the Council Board of Directors.  Your local Council, as mine, is a non-profit corporation registered under the laws of your State and chartered by the Boy Scouts of America National Council.  Each of the Directors has a fiduciary duty.

As a non-profit corporation aren't they chartered with one of three specific purposes: 1) to serve a public interest, 2) to serve a specific group of individuals or 3) the non-profit's membership?

So wouldn't we (members) be in category 2 or 3?

The way I see it is the training courses are:

1) Baloo : Basic camping planning for packs

2) OWLS : Outdoor training specifically targeted to jump starting a quality Webelos Problem

3) IOLS : Outdoor training specifically targeted to skills necessary for scouts up to First Class

4) Powder Horn: Outdoor training targeting High Adventure training for Venturing and Boy Scouts

 

Unfortunately, it seems that Powder Horn is very regional and not offered everywhere.  

Why not just have one level for Cubs. Get the training done once and over. Same for basic Boy Scouts. Then have advanced training for high adventure.

I would encourage us to stop this tread because there is tons of wrong information being spewed about here and the average parent or scouter is going to read this stuff like it is the Gospel. The law is vague at best. At worst it is down right contradictory.

Let's just drop this issue and leave a big sticky note that tells people to get with their COR and CO to determine how to handle any unit finances. There's clearly no one here who should be giving tax advice because everyone commenting thinks they know the "right" answer. No offense folks, but we've been around the horn on this a few times and we've seen no definitive answer to the question.

I know folks are well-meaning but we will never agree until either BSA or the IRS step in and show us the EXACT wording that says we can or cannot do (x).

 

My real question is -- what can we do to help other troops kick-start their adventure program? 

Depends on the unit. No need for WRFA if the troop is going to do plop camping only. No need for canoe instruction if they will never use them. No need for bear safety if they are never going to such areas. No need for RSO training if they never do those sports.

Units that *do* want to do those things can take various training courses. Most are outside of scouting. Some are part of scouting. The units just need to know 1) know what is required, 2) where to get the training, and 3) how often they need to recert. 

In my mind this is where the council and district could be of the most help.

In contrast, the Obamacare web site is both massive and complex...and the Obamacare website is working now. How's that for a comparison? What is the conclusion? BSA is even less efficient and less competent than the federal government, lol. And BSA gets paid more! LOL! [insert maniacal laughter here]

Ah, the Obamacare website wasn't working for a long time because the contractor involved, and the government entity that oversaw it's implementation, had their heads up their bums. It got "fixed" when a new contractor (an very prestigious high tech firm) came in and said, "We will fix this. Kick out these other companies, get the government oversight out of our face, oh, and write another BIG check because this is going to cost you."

In short, government and incompetency was kicked to the curb and private business came in to fix things. The cost of the original system and the fix were nearly seven times the originally intended cost of implementation. 

Many folks have been saying all along that BSA's systems could be fixed if they stopped acting like they were an IT organization and actually hired a company that knew what they were doing.

Oh, fer the love of commerce, ppl!

Have you never looked at the back pages of Boy's Life? I used to spend as much time reading ads as I did memorizing the jokes and riddles! Never once did I misconstrue the levitating car plan advertisement for advice in one of Green Bar Bill's sidebars!

Exactly. Or how about any of the gear peddling they've done recently?

After years of being forced to swallow all the Trail's End stuff we have indignation for this? Really?

How is this any different than using Trail's End? Or any of the other fund raisers listed here.

 

Most units want to have that in-person, face to face before taking and accepting either a youth or adult leader application.

Not really. I'd rather we have a link we can give our members that allows them to register and pay online, upload their YPT cert (or better yet, have that mapped to their log in from their my.scouting log in) and submit any other info.

Most units I know cannot stand to make 1, 2, 10 trips to council to get their paperwork messed up again. They'd rather deal with a good online system that works, with less paperwork, less red tape and less time.

I know no one who *wants* to work face to face with anyone at council. That's where the problem happen.

@@Jackdaws, we had a similar issue. Here's how we solved it:

• Create a spreadsheet where the horizontal rows are your members, the vertical columns are what you need to collect.
• We collect applications (for new members), recharter form (for existing members), YPT for all adults, insurance and BSA medical forms for adults and scouts, payment and a comprehensive waiver for events. Those are our columns.
• Everyone must submit a complete registration package or we don't accept it. We then check everything off, check for signatures, proper boxes check (i.e., ASM or Committee Member or MBC), etc.
• We set a deadline (mid Nov) and then we submit all of our documentation en mass (with our JTE form) to Council. We have our members keep copies of EVERYTHING they turn in to us.

This process has greatly reduced any errors on our part AND gives us a solid way to track any problems Council may create.

Very odd and very weird program. Part of the allure to scouting in my area is going OUTSIDE our council for summer camp. If you've ever spent more than one summer in Texas you'd know why.  

While I think we have some great camps (Sid Richardson), my guys won't spend a week in Texas during the summer. With so many options out there they want to experience what others have to offer.

Krampus, thanks for the eye opener!   I guess after all of those years in the field as a DE/SE, chasing numbers, pushing FOS/popcorn, working with unwashed volunteers (some of them cantankerous vols haven't even been to WB, BSA's life-changing mountain-top leadership extravaganza!), they've finally grabbed the brass ring.   A nice cubical in Irving TX.   Lots of meetings, but only with fellow pros.  If they slum a bit and visit a council, they are treated like a rock star.   Sit on committees.  Draft edicts that are "for the BSA's own good" like six foot tall signal towers and the water gun ban.   Nod and grin as volunteers have the gall to criticize the endless red tape and poorly managed BSA software.  Watch the DEs and SEs out in the councils scramble.  Yep.   The good life.

Of course I generalize, but for the most part I believe my observation is spot on.

Krampus, when you say that you live among them, what exactly does that mean? Are you in Irving, are you at the HQ? Or are you talking about those politicians?

I live in north Texas. We interact with national all the time. The disdain for volunteers is clear but disguised with a faux sense of interest. The MB courses they offer out of national are very draconian and would make a true Scouter weep.

@@SeattlePioneer. we tried this approach one year which ended up costing our membership person countless hours registering those folks who lagged. So we revised the approach to require folks to get their paperwork in two months in advance. That way the word was out and the membership person was able to get all packets early. Also, we did not accept incomplete packets. Lastly, everyone was told that if you miss the deadline you had to get to council on your own to register.

That revision to the process reduced the amount of time spent and increased the number of complete, on-time packets.

SCOUTNET will automatically drop a leader once YPT is expired.

 

I have two leaders in that status and they are still on the charter and online. I don't think it's automatic.