Krampus

 

I knew at age 50 at Philmont that cardiac arrest was a possibility.... I went anyway.  I got dealt a good hand, not everyone does. 

Getting a full stress echo and test, as well as calcium scoring, is a good way to know where you are at on the heart disease spectrum. Do that every three to five years after 45. Before Obamacare my insurance covered nearly all of it, now just a fraction. However I do it anyway and I'm in the pink. All men should have that done if they are going to hang with the big dogs on high adventure.

If I understand the police correctly, all of those mechanisms were in place.

 

If by "two ticks", you mean contour intervals, that would put you at 80' above on this map.  That's pretty high.

What I inferred from the article was that HQ had radios. Some (not all) staff in the field had radios. Some crews (but not the troop in question) had radios....though I must say no crew I have ever sent or been on has been given a radio or frequency to monitor by Philmont staff. The staff at this site seemed unclear on where the unit was located or able to get them advanced warning. The crew itself did not seem to have a two-way (or even one-way) device to get/give position location, get weather data or warnings. There did not seem to be any type of auditory warning system (siren, canon, etc.) sounded to signal flash flood or tornado or anything.

I guess my point is that the systems that may have been in place were inadequate. Certainly for a place that processes 20,000 people a summer there should be better systems in place to warn people. Training is another issue.

And yes, two clicks would be 80' above stage. I might go with one click depending on the topography, but 50ft from a creek bed with no elevation change? That was clearly not a good decision.

Agree @@Stosh. And if all that is the case then you don't allow weekend warriors who are 6'3" and over 250lbs (and way off the BMI index) to lead a group of slightly-trained kids into the back country. Make WFA mandatory. Make advanced storm spotter training mandatory. Actually turn down adults who have not had an EKG and full stress test done recently. Make advanced orienteering and map reading a requirement, as well as LNT advanced training.

If this is to be the pinnacle experience for scouts and adults, we should make the training and requirements for it match that; not allow anyone who shows up a pass to go on the trail. BSA cannot relax the standards and then be surprised when something like this happens.

All that said, if you look at accident statistics for outdoor/indoor sports, more people die from those things than have died under the auspices of a scouting event. Message: When you live life it is actually dangerous.

Our scout leaders use text messages. They think email is for old people (over 20). The school system asks students to use email and text messages so they know to check both, but they check texts faster than email.

We don't have mailing lists for non-members, nor do we allow non-member adults to audit scout text communications (they use Remind).

We are talking in another thread about the rumor of making wilderness first aid mandatory. IMHO I think advanced storm spotter training is just as important. The ability to read the sky is exceptionally important. Next, I think a warning system between HQ and the various bases is needed. I'd also recommend equipping the crews in the field with a method to get/give updates on the weather. 

Lastly, looking at a topo of the area where the tragedy happened, There don't appear to be any decent camping areas that are NOT in the creek bed. We did high adventure this summer and had our crews (always) two ticks above the high water mark of the creeks we were near. Yes, sometimes that meant camping on a slope but better that than this.

Our unit has found that the link between uniformity of dress (e.g., Class A, Class B, etc,...and yes I know the terms don't exist in any handbook) and unit spirit, and esprit de corps is high. We used to be one of those troops that wore the shirt but pants and socks were anything goes. MB sashes were worn in the belt when wearing OA sashes, hats were anything goes too. Summer camp was like YMCA camp, not Boy Scouts. Changed our uniform guidelines to adhere to BSA standards and it was amazing how things changed literally overnight.

I wonder how many folks who are at ease with less stringent patch/pin placement will be upset if an OA sash were worn incorrectly or MB sash worn over the belt, etc.

Could you imagine BSA making this mandatory for adults in scouting? I can't find a class now as it is without extreme difficulty. In my area we'd have to train or hire dozens of groups to offer this course to meet the demand. I suspect the same is true with everyone else's districts.

I totally agree that this is a great course and solely needed, but I agree with whoever it was who said it should be just as much for the scouts as the adults. We sent three crews to Philmont in 2013 the last week it was open. During that time two adults (not in our crews) died as a result of heart-related issues. Sadly only faster medical evac would have saved them as the first responders were well trained.

I think that the transition is hard, mainly because of the poor training for Scouters and parents on boy lead and the patrol method....

I know it's more complicated than that, but I feel that it wouldn't need to be.

 

Exactly why during recruiting we are very clear on such issues. We let the parents know flat out how we will transition them and their kids from the hands-on, nose-ring approach of cubs, to the more autonomous, boy-led approach we use in scouts. We have a few parent meetings during the spring to walk them through stuff while the boys are in their first year program. This has helped reduce the shock. It has actually lead to us getting more parents camping because they know they won't have to follow Timmy around everywhere.

Parents who find it hard to cope with this transition will pick a troop that is more adult lead.

So it is okay to pick and choose what things from BSA we will follow?

We're having a fishing camp out this weekend.  I really hope someone catches some fish as I don't think any of these Scouts have ever had fried fresh fish.  And I don't mean from a restaurant.

 

I had to look up the recipe for cornmeal batter as it's been awhile for me too.

We were south of Dallas last weekend and the fish were biting fine.

I build aircraft carriers for Her Majesty :-D

I knew that. Plus I can see what Stosh is doing now.

Translated: I work for the government on contract, I don't know what it is I'm supposed to do because I'm kept in the dark all the time.

 

Am I close @@Krampus ?  

Partially. Let's just say the folks I work for know all about you. Everything.

Can't say for whom or where I work. Can say it is for a large company that does work for a national government. I work in areas that don't have light switches (hint, hint).

$54? Really? - @@Krampus did you buy stock in the company?    There are parents out there that won't buy a used pair of scout pants for half that.    Naw, the cheapie http://www.brownells.com/emergency-survival-gear/food-amp-cooking-supplies/cooking-supplies/5-piece-aluminum-cook-set-sku100016270-74834-155218.aspx?cm_mmc=cse-_-Itwine-_-pricegrabber-_-Aluminum%20Cook%20Set&gdftrk=gdfV21820_a_7c187_a_7c828_a_7c100016270_d_100016270_d_22437will do just fine.

LOL...I wish. Since we were talking adult gear I figured I would put out my A list choice. Nice and light, If you are on the trail for two weeks and want something flexible, compact and light, that's a great buy. Expensive? Sure. 

When I am at Philmont I simply take my sierra cup and splork, pocket knife to cut anything. I will say that last time we took this instead of the Philmont gear. Took up much less weight and space. 

Little Tommy Tucker, a wolf cub, says to Billy Jacobs, another wolf cub, "Oooooohhh, look at that. Mr. Addinsell is wearing a pin on his collar. I distinctly remember reading in the Insignia Guide that THAT is a violation of the uniform code. No need to pay attention to him anymore, he has no regard for the law."

To which Billy replies, "Yes, and look, he's not even wearing the proper socks with the uniform either, O M G!"

 

Later some parents, horrified over these outrageous violations, vote to join the unit Krampus is in. After all if one of the leaders is wearing a pin on his collar, they need to get their sons away from that bad example right away.

Or, what happens in the real world is that Billy and Tommy start wearing ANY pin or patch they want to ANYWHERE on their uniform. Why? First, because they saw Mr. Addinsell doing it. Second, they don't know (or care) about what is an official patch versus and unofficial patch. Third, they don't understand (or care) about why Mr. Addinsell is wearing a patch/pin in the wrong place, they assume because he simply wants to.

What other rules or policies would you like to pick and choose to obey? This is like the people who walk their dogs without leashes in cities with leash laws because their dog obeys them. The law says use a leash but somehow they think they're above that and the law does not apply to them.

@@blw2 depends. I'd say the BSA kit if that's what your scouts use and you do a ton of patrol camping. Always good to show the scouts that you use what they use.

If you do a bunch of backpacking I have tried a few dozen systems and found this to be the best value for the weight and price. Depending on what you're doing you can pick and choose what to bring. Of course a sierra cup and splork will do you fine, but I like to have the ability to do a bit more and the Microdualist works great.

Sorry, didn't read the Tenderfoot and Second Class requirements.

Wait until you read the Camping and Cooking MB requirements. Camping is basically a repeat of first class reqs. The old pre-2014 cooking requirements has a scout cooking three times: patrol camping, hiking and home cooking. For the latter when they cook for family I encourage them to cook all three meals in one day so they get a feel for what mom and dad do for them.

I don't get "one and done". The requirements are written are clearly progressive against a boy's abilities coming in from Cubs. I think they fit perfectly in to the patrol method. Who is to say that a scout completes the requirement just by doing any of this once. Maybe he does not fully complete a requirement.

• Tenderfoot: [PL Method Link: The new scout learns how to assist in all aspects of patrol cooking and clean up. He is taught by his peers and learns how to set-up, prepare, cook, eat and clean as a unit. All boy-led]
  • On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol’s meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together.
• Second Class: [PL Method Link: As the scout progresses he learns to take control of the patrol fire, and not just for cooking. He learns about more advanced cooking methods (stoves). He is given more advanced duties -- having spent several camp outs as an assistant cook -- and is allowed to chef two meals. He learns healthy food habits and avoids pop tarts and beef smokies. Again, this is all boy-led]
  • Use the tools listed in requirement 3c to prepare tinder, kindling,and fuel for a cooking fire.
  • Explain when it is appropriate to use a cooking fire. At an approved outdoor location and at an approved time, and using the tinder, kindling, and fuel wood from requirement 3d, demonstrate how to build a fire; light the fire, unless prohibited by local fire restrictions. After allowing the flames to burn safely for at least two minutes, safely extinguish the flames with minimal impact to the fire site.
  • Explain when it is appropriate to use a lightweight stove or propane stove. Set up a lightweight stove or propane stove; light the stove, unless prohibited by local fire restrictions. Describe the safety procedures for using these types of stoves.
  • On one campout, plan and cook one hot breakfast or lunch, selecting foods from the MyPlate food guide or the current USDA nutrition model. Explain the importance of good nutrition. Tell how to transport, store, and prepare the foods you selected.
• First Class: [PL Method Link: He's hit the big time. After learning all the basics, he's head chef. He plans it, prices it, buys it, packs it, cooks it. He's even got assistants now. He runs the show from beginning to end.]
  • Help plan a patrol menu for one campout that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner, and that requires cooking at least two of the meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from the MyPlate food guide or the current USDA nutrition model and meets nutritional needs.
  • Using the menu planned in requirement 4a, make a list showing the cost and food amounts needed to feed three or more boys and secure the ingredients.
  • Tell which pans, utensils, and other gear will be needed to cook and serve these meals.
  • Explain the procedures to follow in the safe handling and storage of fresh meats, dairy products, eggs, vegetables, and other perishable food products. Tell how to properly dispose of camp garbage, cans, plastic containers, and other rubbish.
  • On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup.

This process seems ideal for the patrol method, IMHO. In our unit, new scouts wanting their tenderfoot cooking signed off have to contact their PL and instructors and let them know. During their helping they are evaluated by their leaders. Boy-led, Patrol method. Same for second and first class. Everything is witnessed, reviewed and signed off by the scouts. The adults are burning their own cobbler while this is happening.

If a hat or neckerchief are optional they should still conform to the standard if worn, IMHO.

Sorry, our troop has one cook per patrol per camp out for this very reason. It is much easier to track/manage who does what from a PLs perspective. Instructors in our troop sign off on requirements but they must be documented. A scout must come to the instructor with a copy of his menu and his PL's signature that he cooked and supervised. All cooking requirements are on the menu template just as reminders.

In Texas we use them. We have to be careful because those things heat up fast under the Texas sky. Cook times are REAL fast. Baking can get done in no time.

That we care more for who is under the shirt than what is on it?

 

Here's the thing: a search of "mentor" or "pin" in the IG comes up with zilch. Thus some folks take that as lattitude, others see it as limiting.

 

So, what about the BSA dress uniform? Can scouters wear a mentor pin or two on that lapel?

You see, that's the point exactly. If it is not on the guide, it goes on the brag vest/jacket. 

If it does not show up on the guide one should not assume they can put it where they want. That's just looking for an excuse in my opinion. When the uniform and insignia guide gets so prescriptive as to tell you how many inches a service star is from your knots, that's by design, just as omission of where to put this pin or that pin is by design. There's the temp patch area. That's it.

I fully understand the sentimentality of having something unofficial being given to an adult leader. Over the years I have collected by fair share of baubles and such which mean something to me and the person who gave them to me. In Cubs, I wore them on my adult brag vest. That is the appropriate place for them. In Boy Scouts I wear them on my red wool jacket. That is the appropriate place for them.

Given that kids learn best by example, what example do we set when we break rules and then later try to get them to conform to a higher standard or guideline? We can serve two masters here. We can show our appreciation for that special gift AND we can adhere to our uniform guidelines. They do not need to be mutually exclusive. My two cents.

Great read. I wonder if he's aware that scouts now cannot even use squirt guns, let alone go hunting for wild game or go in the back country without 30 adults, a trailer, and mountains of paperwork. 

We have two organizations near by that will bring a live Eagle and do a presentation as part of a Court of Honor.

Great idea. We have a raptor center in Wylie. Maybe they will bring an Eagle if the price is right.