Krampus

Figured talking to the DE might 1) uncover if any problems had risen to the district level with this scout, 2) put the DE on notice what the unit may be considering if the family of the boy decided to complain.

Thanks everyone! You're all saying what I believe to be true, but have struggled with simply saying "No". 

Have you talked to your DE or the other troop? Maybe they have more information for you.

Thankfully we have never had a totally disruptive scout. We have had the odd issues over the years but, after counselling, they typically drop or don't recharter. Most change or grow up. Those with severe issues (not due to mental, physical or emotional issues) usually just leave. Those with the issues I mention usually get better. One boy took two years to get over his issues. We were patient, had a plan and he kept to it. Never had safety issues.

"I may break a rule from time to time but it is never intentional."

ROTFL

 

You ought to be a politician!

Case in point: The guys used water balloons at summer camp. Never thought BSA would be so obtuse as to deny the guys a chance to have fun using those unless they were s prescribed size and no bigger. Found out we were in violation of BSA rules. My fault. I take the blame. Did not do it intentionally, but geesh, who would have ever thought that was "illegal" for Boy Scouts.

It's not like we violated two-deep, make up our own requirements, policies or rules. So you can be snarky if you like, but when you look at the "rules" that we may violate unintentionally they are the more inane and obscure rules of BSA that 99% of Scouters would have no clue about.

So what are yall gonna count when Camps become Lodge/Cabin Camps for Summer Camps?

Since yall say Outdoors only 

 

And How Many Summer Camp already set up tents...""Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched""

To be honest, I doubt my boys would pick a camp like that. They had the chance to do a camp back east that had cool cabins and they picked normal tents. I *do* think any type of open cabin or shelter should still count, but we follow the rules regardless of what I think. I've found that the boys will usually pick being outdoors than being in cabins when they have the chance. The only exception was winter camping when they did not have the option of snow shelters; only tents or cabins....they elected the latter.

So Krampus, have you always done absolutely everything absolutely by the book? Yes? No?

 

As a matter of fact, you yourself advocated for flexibility on 5 October this year in regard to 'special needs' boys.

 

"Posted 05 October 2015 - 10:36 AM

@Exibar, Section 10.2.0.0 (Advancement Flexibility Allowed) in the GTA spells it out. Just like everything we do in Scouting we should have the boy strive to reach beyond his grasp. Our unit usually meets with the parents to determine how we are going to proceed for each rank. We set goals and boundaries, identify how we will evaluate the scout and move forward. We remain flexible."

 

Do you only apply this flexibility to the scouts whom in your judgement you feel like you need to apply it? Or to none of them?

In case you have not read the special needs accommodations from BSA, they are the ONLY group for which you CAN change requirements.

Let's make sure that when you are trying to make a point you stick to the topic. We are talking about applying the STANDARD REQUIREMENTS to the AVERAGE SCOUT, and NOT special needs scouts. There is a mountain of difference there. BSA supports making accommodations for special needs scouts. They DO NOT support making changes for your average scout.

Hope that's clear.

...and yes, I read "the book" (and all other documentation) and try to live by the letter of the law. I'm not one of those people who thinks just because my dog listens to me I can let him off the leash in the park when there is a leash law. I don't cut down the shoulder of the road just because I am taking the next exit. If someone held the door open for me at Starbucks because I had my hands full I, in turn let them in line in front of me because that's where they would be had they not opened the door for me. I don't cheat on my taxes, when I am not charged for the item that the check out girl forgot to scan I pay for it. Rules are in place for a reason. Don't like them? Change them, but don't think they don't apply to you because you don't like them. I may break a rule from time to time but it is never intentional. My patrols don't play laser tag, but the boys in the patrol may meet as a group (without BSA affiliation) and play it. That's not breaking or bending the rules, that's boys finding a way around things even they consider silly.

So flexibility is okay if it violates BSA requirements or policy? Please. This is nothing more than an adult trying to step in and put his stamp on things rather than to follow what is written in plain English.

BSA is clear on the subject of what constitutes camping. If we cheat and allow two summer camps we are breaking the rules. Period! Once you put yourself in the role of picking and choosing which rules or requirements you will or won't follow you are guilty of being part of the problem.

Camp the days, outside, in a tent or shelter you built or put up, one one of these camp can be a long term camp. That's pretty clear.

Once you start ignoring the rules -- and showing others its okay to ignore the rule -- you create people who think the rules don't apply to them. You can try to disguise it as "helping" someone, but what you are doing is far from being helpful....at least to others that are doing it by the book.

We have a scout who doesn't like the outdoors and his mom worries about him getting dirty.  He also has allergies.  I guess we could make an exception for him.  IT would only be fair.  Maybe he could set up a tent in his basement and sleep there.  It says "under the sky" or "in a tent you have pitched" -- so if he pitches the tent inside that works.  I guess it needs to be a campout, so one of his scout buddies can stay with him.  If we give him credit, we would have to give his buddy credit.  But what about the other guys?  That wouldn't be fair to them.  We could allow everyone to set up tents in our CO's multipurpose room.  The grubmaster can fulfill his T-1st cooking requirements by ordering pizza and picking up donuts in the morning.  We could even get one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Indoor-Campfire-Artificial-Flame-Halloween/dp/B00166RUVO 

Exactly!!!

Why not make accommodations for the non-swimmer? Let him swim in the shallow end to earn the swimming MB?

Eagle is supposed to be an ACHIEVEMENT, not something we go around BSA policy to accommodate non-disabled scouts.

BSA allows SOME flexibility in things, but only where allowed. When you start picking and choosing what you want to apply and what you want to ignore it becomes a slippery slope.

I prefer to follow the letter of the law. Sometimes the law isn't fair, but when applied to everyone equally and uniformally then at least there's equality.

When I first read your comment about rules of membership that were "tossed away", I thought you were talking about the change in policy regarding gay people. But when I got to the last sentence of what I quoted, now I'm not sure if the "rule" you are talking about is that one, or the change to allow female leaders and Venturers, or both. Can you clarify that?

All changes to membership policy.

18 hours is great than the current 11 hours, but not by much.

One would think BSA would require a bit more for ranks. You need 18 for ranks now, 8 for CCC, x amount for your conservation project for camping and I think that is it, no?

First Aid. I have had to use it to save a life (my own son), as well as to save a life as a scout. I have used it on countless occasions and it was all due to my initial training as a scout.

Second would be orienteering or astronomy. Being able to navigate keeps you safe.

Third would be cooking. I developed my love for cooking as a scout. Got me my wife and the skill has been passed on to my kids.

This scout has been with the troop since before my son joined.  I have been SM for 2 years and he "came back" to troop meetings maybe a year ago.  All other ranks were covered by the previous 2 SMs.

I was in a similar situation when I took over. We have a few inactive guys who I had never seen come for their Life or EBORs. I had been in the troop nearly 18 months and they wanted me to give them their SMC. I asked the previous SM (still an ASM at the time) to run the SMC. They knew the kid, I didn't know them nor had I seen them before. I figured the kid would get more out of the SMC with someone he'd at least seen before.

We have ASMs as part of the EBOR but never SMs

None of our Scoutmasters (SM or ASM) sit in on BORs of any kind. As the GTA says, the SM and ASMs can sit in on an BOR (unless they are the parent of the Scout), but they cannot be "on the board".

Let's remember that as adults we should be able to do this without making it hard.  National has come out with their definitions, but reality is that you are at the troop level and should be able to make a fair, but reasonable decision about actual activity.  Why can't we simple make this kind of decision and stop making it harder than necessary?  Sure, occasionally someone will really corrupt the intent, but mostly it will be rational and make sense if we simply decide based on the general guideline.  

 

Again, if you are a leader; be one.  Make decisions that are sensible and fair, and that attempt to adhere to the basic intent of the challenge or requirement.  Why is this so hard?  

It is hard because when you set your own arbitrary level of what "active" means you are establishing your own definition and now using what national gives you. The GTA does not give you any specific level to determine what active means, they simply say:

1. A Scout is Registered: That means as long as he pays his dues he's active. Does not mean he has to attend ANYTHING!
2. A Scout is in Good Standing: As long as he has not violated any BSA rules or been dismissed for behavior he's considered active. This good standing is in all scouting activities whether local, regional, national or international. Again, does not have to attend anything, just needs to be paid up and not on anyone's naughty list.
3. The Unit Activity Level Is Defined in Policy: The Scout meets the unit’s reasonable expectations; or, if not, a lesser level of activity is explained. If not, the scout can use the "alternative explanation" to define his level of activity.

However, they *do* allow units to set what they call "the unit's reasonable expectations" for being active. ONLY if you have a stated policy can you apply this "standard", otherwise their inactivity can be explained by the "alternative" to the third criteria. Essentially, if the scout can point to demonstrating scouting's values in ANOTHER activity then a unit's board must accept that as being "active" for the purposes of BSA membership.

So, let's say it is December and Tom wants his Life BOR. Tom has not been to a single meeting or camp out. Tom has paid his dues, kept his nose clean and been very active in school government, football, german club and national honor society. UNLESS your unit has a STATED policy about what constitutes "active" in your unit you MUST consider Tom an active scout and afford him all the benefits of a member....which means he sits for his BOR.

Please note that I only credit scouts who are regularly active, which will include other camping, hikes, and consistent attendance in meetings and service and so on. 

How do you measure "regularly active" against the definition of "active" in the GTA? Since there's not BSA standard that defines "active" in terms of % of events attended, etc., I am curious how you measure that given no measurement standard.

Not to be a pain, but my understanding was that shelters a scout build DID count, i.e. survival shelters?

Good point. I usually think of shelters as Adirondacks or other such pre-built shelters.

Survival and snow shelters count.

Another bug I just saw. Some posts I can "thank" while others (just above or below the ones I can thank) I cannot.

The SM or his designee may "observe" the EBOR, but may not participate (speak) other than to introduce the candidate.  There are two methods of conducting EBORs.  Some councils delegate it to the units, to be conducted by the unit Committee Chair and committee members, with a rep from the District Advancement Committee (who must sign the Eagle Applcation).  Some councils conduct all EBOR at the District or Council level.

 

The post from John in KC is news to me ... is that a change?  I think in the past, the Eagle candidate could request a member of the community (teacher, Pastor, etc) to participate.

Curious, but how are there just two methods? The GTA says, "Council advancement committees must determine— and make known—method(s) for conducting Eagle Scout boards of review: whether unit committees or the council or district advancement committees administer them, and also how board chairpersons are selected."

I have seen a few different methods (unit, group of units, district, cross-district, council, etc.) used. I think there may be more than two official methods.

Because we have a BOY Scout program and a GIRL scout program.    If the girls don' tlike their program, fix it, don't go messing with the programs of others.  Next time one confronts a male in the female restroom or vice versa, you'll understand.  An intolerant minority is progressively promoting their agenda against a former tolerant majority.  As that majority becomes more intolerant society will further polarize until it collapses.

 

Why shouldn't we just let them in?  It will appease nothing and further antagonize the agreements we have with other organizations to stay out of their concerns.  As with any other political agenda decision, it just depends on which group you're going to tick off on any given day.  To disregard the BSA/GSUSA agreement is the first step in removing a couple of Scout Laws from the books.  By the time it's finished, about the only Law that is left will be a Scout is Clean, well, maybe not his hands, but the rest maybe.

 

While these comments may not reflect my beliefs, they still remain my observations.

Devil's Advocate here, but we had rules of membership before. They were tossed away because we've "progressed" as a society as to not discriminate on any basis....supposedly. So how can the organization justify discriminating against girls when: 1) They let in women, 2) they have girls in crews now, and 3) we are supposed to be eliminating barriers.

Slippery slope the BSA has created.

Need the group's help on this one. Scout went to summer camp for the full week in year one. In year two Scout attended three days/nights. Camping MB says "you may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement." We have varying opinions if the days/nights in year two can be counted, because it wasn't "a week." MB also says all campouts since becoming a Scout may count toward the requirement, which may also be causing confusion.

 

So do the days in week two count toward the MB requirement? Scout met the other requirements to count these days, as he was at camp each day and night and slept in a tent.

 

Everyone has posted the party line:

• Only one long-term camp counts, ever.
• Camping must be outdoors. Nothing indoors counts, ever.
• Must be under the stars, tent you pitch or tent pitched for you (e.g., summer camp). Shelters of any kind do not count.
• Must be scouting events. Cannot be dad/son camping unless it is part of a unit, district, council, national, international or other formal scouting event.
• Clock starts when they become a scout and ends when they turn 18. Camping done for scouts what meets the above restrictions during that time counts.
• Note said, but you CAN apply the nights used for the Camping MB for OA eligibility.

Box checking? In Boy Scouts? Naw!

If BSA really wanted to hammer the point home, wouldn't they focus their dollars on outdoor programs rather than cannibalize their program and create a STEM offering? Can't be much exercise using a beaker.

Some folks think BSA is uniquely positioned to set things aright.

those folks clearly have never used a BSA computer system.

Why shouldn't we let in girls? We cannot discriminate based on any other reason. Why discriminate based on sex?

Scuba Diving - around here the going rate is about $250

That's cheap. Gear alone will cost you that much. Open water cert is another $350. Add in the cost of Seabase and you are in for $2k.

Still, it is FAR cheaper than going to Jamboree. Our council requires you buy their trip. In 2010 that was $5300 for a scout and $5100 for scouter, $4900 if you were "staff". 

I was just notified of this post.

 

I cannot post.

 

I cannot open some threads.

Odd. I can post, reply,  PM. Have not tried to open a thread. Just no notifications.