Krampus

...and this is where you are proud because 1) your kid is smart, 2) you obviously did something right in your parenting, and 3) he knows who screwed up, you have values and he shares them. Buy him an ice cream and have one of those father-son moments.

The manual system takes more time than the online system. Much more time. I can enter in blue cards at camp. Done. I don't have to wait until I get back home. If my house burns down my records are not destroyed, they are backed up online. In my district they want more. Our unit does so much service that the boys run out of space in their book. We track it in TM so that we can credit automatically for rank and the boys can see online. With the new requirements increasing service hours, this feature will be more important. Again, it is FAR less time consuming than the manual method and allows for back up of the data. This assumes BSA records are accurate. Would bet that they are? I don't know anyone who thinks BSA's online system accurately reflects their training. Heck, this past summer they lost over 20,000 training records and accounts. *Poof* Gone! Mine was one of them. 12 years of training, gone! Thankfully I was able to get full credit in one day by sending them *MY* back ups from TM. All training that we do that does not go directly in to BSA (RSO, WRFA, CPR, etc.) is tracked in TM. Again, takes FAR less time and we have back ups. Good for you. House burns down and take the tote with it you are screwed. I press "print" and get everything back without having to bug 83 families for their forms again. Did I mention it is faster and I have back ups? No one is saying you can't do it the old fashioned way. But there is no argument that doing it online 1) saves considerable time, 2) reduces paper use, 3) provides for back up in case of emergency, 4) allows for swift reporting or providing updates, 4) integrates with other systems (SOAR) to increase communication and information sharing. As for your phone, you still use a pager? Flip phone? Or do you have one of the new HTC or iPhones? Then ask yourself why you have that fancy phone. Save times? Allows you to do more? Same with online scout systems.

Let me clarify: No offsite data back up. Also, no secondary production system. I know a bit about their technical architecture. Not to be pedantic but I will explain it this way: The SB primary system is hosted in one data center. That means all the computers on which the SB application runs, and all of your data, is in one location. SB is in an active-passive configuration. This means that there is a primary system online, which is what you use to access the application and your data. Simply said, the computers on which your application and data sit rely on a single group of computers to stay up and running. If something happens they (BSA) have the option to turn on the back-up system (which is a development environment). So if there is an outage or problem with the main production system it may take a while for BSA to cut over to the secondary system....if at all. You have experienced this if you've ever used myscouting.org. When it is down it takes a while to come back online, and then it is VERY slow. Because this is a single location where the system is hosted, if there is a problem you could lose access to your application and data. If a backhoe cuts the power lines to the data center where this is hosted, you have no access to your system. They cannot turn on the back up system because it is located in the same building. Same for if the backhoe hits the telecommunications lines. No access and it make take days to get restored. Because this is a single location, if there is an act of God (or Rock, if you're an Atheist) and the building in which this system is hosted gets damaged or destroyed, you lose your data. All data is on a storage array on the data center floor. If that gets destroyed you are toast. No data. All the data gets backed up (to tape....yes some folks still use tape). The tapes are stored on site in the same building as the SB system. If the building is destroyed your data back ups (as well as your live data) get destroyed. Back tapes are sent off site every month. If you are lucky you can get your month-old data back once they find a new building to rebuild the entire platform in. As a comparison, Minecraft is hosted in the Amazon cloud, has an active-active environment (think: one goes down, the other is up right away), uses more than one data center for both application and data. Cost: $20....once. Scoutbook is $10-$40/year. Just sayin'.

LOL, it is not kids that made this hard. From you say here's what I think everyone gets out of leaving: He learns how to analyze a no-win situation. He learns that trust, honesty and one's word still mean something in this world. He learns that there are times when leaving is better than fighting. He learns to analyze his values (boy-led, PM) and discern whether he wants to waste his time (life) trying to fix something OR being in an environment he may not agree with. He learns is old man has ideals which he won't compromise. He learns the value of his dad making sure he gets to enjoy his youth, learn, grow and develop in to a leader; instead of playing Cub Scout until he's 18. No one like to leave something they had thought was going to work out, but I keep thinking about their dishonesty and wondering what else they will do? What other shortcuts will they take? Will their RSOs be trained or just very good duck hunters? Will the leaders have WRFA training or just say they do and print up a certificate online? Will you and your kid even get a fair shake after this? No one can walk a mile in your shoes. We've all been in similar situations but we can only give you what we would do and hope it is of comfort and aid.

I'd buy that if: Units didn't have to track and report rank advancements/MBs. Units didn't have to track and report service hours. Units didn't have to track and report training. Units didn't have to track and manage health forms, medical conditions, etc. I've tried managing all the things *required* by district/council/national on paper. Too time consuming. Tried spreadsheets. Too cumbersome and still too time consuming. Online tools -- that are backed up in case something happens -- works just fine and has reduced my time for administration so I can spend MORE time making sure stuff is boy-led, PM-based. Remember, even back when *we* were Scouts, parents and adults were using pen and paper to track these things. You think THEY would go for quill and parchment if they had the option of TM+SOAR+smartphone? How many of you Luddites carry pagers instead of smartphones?

That is how the local option should work, but I doubt that is how most people read the BSA change. Many I speak with think it means you have to accept anyone who applies now.

As was pointed out be several already, they are not "honest" so what other parts of the Law are they going to break? Not sure I would have my kid in that group. But I will say that kids get a great deal from their parents. It might be best for him to see you stand up for your principles and leave to find a better troop. After all, you are fighting for his well-being and development. He needs to know that is why you volunteered to be SM, and that is why you are leaving. He will understand. Heck, he might know it already.

I think he was talking about when, in an organization that held the concept of God dear, people with religious beliefs were not demonized.

...and it has not data back up. If the primary hosting site becomes a smoking hole then you lose your data. Until they establish onsite and offsite data back ups or replication, it won't be any good as a tool.

I wonder what they mean by "LBGT troop"? Are they only going to accept gay members?

@@fred johnson for the sake of argument I will disagree on pen and handbook. A system like TM gives you a back up of all records (rank, MB, awards, medical, training, camping, etc.). It makes tracking and reporting easier ("how many kids need x requirement?"). I agree it depends on needs. I agree TM + SOAR make a great tool for getting, managing and communicating information. I've done things with pen/paper and phone. I've done the custom website and email. TM + SOAR are by far the best, least time-consuming of the lot...but we have a huge unit. Smaller units with less tracking and reporting might be better off with something else. At very least, TM gives you back up of our unit's records and a history...and that's big when you need it.

We've noticed in our area the success of fund-raising (off topic from the OP) depends on what others are doing. Since we live in an area saturated with packs, crews and troops (in a 20sq mi area there are over 110 packs, troops or crews) units need to be savvy on how to raise money. GS has their cookies. Cubs do popcorn. No way a 14 year old freshman is going to out-sell a Tiger Cub in uniform. Same with camp cards. Little Cubs hit you up coming outside the supermarket and you are going to buy from him, not my guys. Most troops sell mulch or something along those lines. Our niche is flower flats in the spring. $20 for the flat and the boys walk with $8. Nice ROI. Did xmas greens this year since no one in our area of town does that....filled a void. I would love to live in an area where we had more latitude and less competition. Where I am there are just too many units hitting you up for stuff nearly every month. Saturated.

That was a guy already turned down before just waiting for the decision to "re-apply" despite already knowing what the answer would be. Activist tilting the same wind mill.

Do you live in my district/council? Sounds very familiar. Yes, our council/district push popcorn and camp cards as mandatory too. We do flowers....huge sellers. Camp cards? Not so much. Did Xmas stuff this year. Was a last minute thing but I think it could be a big seller for the CO and unit. Unfortunately the CO is lukewarm to the idea simply because it is seen as competing with other ministry activities/events/fundraising.

Well then I have to say I am with @@Stosh...I'd look elsewhere. Hopefully you have other options in your area with a more boy-led program. Good luck. Sorry the adult drama ruined your experience.

@@Renax127 I read this last night before bed. Re-reading it this AM I'm thinking that you should have a meeting with the guys that made BOTH decisions. Ask them what gives. Why the change? Which decision are they going to stick with and why? They OWE you that. This is Scouting and they need to come clean and be honest. @@Stosh is right, even if they give you an answer it's likely time to move. It appears "loyal" is not in someone's vocabulary, so let's hope the other 11 points are. They owe you an explanation otherwise how can you answer you son? I'd hold them to that. Face to face, man to man. My two cents.

Don't use any of these things. Maybe that's why we succeed.

@@NJCubScouter if you look back at the threads all about gay scouts and leaders there were MANY supporters here that felt there was a huge group that hadn't joined scouting because of those restrictions. It's been nearly 3 years since that first decision and numbers are decreasing at a rate twice of the usual average. Ain't getting better. Don't see that increase. I think that's the point.

I'd volunteer to run their first year program. Get your kid to FC and teach the boys to be strong and boy led.

@@redfeather60 I think there's a thread where this was discussed pretty well. If you search on the keywords like TroopMaster or Scoutbook you should find them. We spent days discussing the pros and cons. That thread should help.

We still don't allow a group of humans. So it's okay to gender discriminate but not discriminate against unreligious people? Not quite sure I follow that logic. You're either for breaking down barriers or you're not. Can't see how you justify it any other way.

"Entire classes of citizens"? You mean girls? Did we decide to accept them now or are they still bared? I guess we can't "go forward" until we stop discriminating against all "classes of citizens" right?

I understand there was a record recruitment this year in Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts the likes of which we have never seen because all those folks who had been avoiding Scouting because of these policies have now decided to join AND volunteer to lead units. Didn't you see the press?

@@HICO_Eagle I'm in a similar situation. Thankfully my COR is pretty much against allowing the new rules to impact our unit. Should the issue come up we'd lose most of our leadership. I'd likely go a similar route to you, as would most of our leaders.

....and many of the ISIS killings are war related, not terror.