Bob White

Actually Kudu my post is based on one point alone. Today ain't yesterday and never will be, And you are trying to live in a day that you have only read about. I think playing like its another time is fun for youth, what kid hasn't played Cowboys and Indians. But you can only play at it. You can be a civil war reenactor but you can't actually go be in the civil war, its over. But there are real adventures you can do with scouts today and you don't have to pretend that you live in 1938 to do it. Lots of Scouts are able to where todays uniforms, use today's advancement, follow todays rules and still introduce the skills of yester year, why is that not sufficient to satiate your longing for the times you never lived in? I checked with my my mom, 1938 wasn't that great a time to live in. I though that you might want to know.

I really do not think it will be any problem Artigas. You should hear from National in 2 to 4 weeks. Eisely, the Scoutmaster is allowed to stay in the room as I described. You will find that in the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Also in step 9 of "The 12 Steps to Eagle" found in the BSA offical "Eagle Scout Leadership Project Workbook". BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What if we pick 1907? Whose up for giving the youth rubdowns after a day at camp? That's what B-P did at Brownsea isn't it Kudu? How abpout 1938, did't they treat burns with butter? but we know now that butter actually seals the heat in and drives the burn deeper. Maybe we should go to the 50's and use tourniquets to stop severe bleeding instead of direct pressure? Of course a lot of injured people will lose limbs needlessly but what a great ol' skill? How about a return to semaphore? It will come in handy if you ever are on a hilttop and need to send a message to someone else on a hiltop who happens to be there right when we are and also happens to know semaphore. I'll bet that happens a lot. And don't forget to trench your tents in case it rains, sure it trashes the grounds ecosystem and creates erosion damage, but its fun to scout like in the 'good ol days'. No more lightweight packs of cource. You need to take sticks and lash a frame together. No more mummy bags either. We'll make bedrolss from blankets and blanket pins. Okay sure thet're not as warm and they absorb water and they are a lot heavier but hey, things were better back then weren't they? And who wants to backpack with nylon tents with rain flys when you can use shelter halves or canvas voyagers. Scouting was, what it was, based on the technology and society of the day. Just as it is today. The funny thing is that most people who would want to live scouting as it was in 1907 or even 1938, never lived scouting in those days, they have only day dreamed about what it would be like or played like it was in the old days. But unless you live the program in the day it was actually set it is just roleplaying. They scouted the way they did because that was the world they lived in, the resources they had, the knowledge they had. Scouting from "the good old days" is no more appropriate for youth today than scouting today would be for youth of those days. You cannot drive forward very far while only looking in your rearview mirror without having an accident. But if you can get a teenager to show up once a week and a weekend a month to pretend like it's 1938 but stay within the advancement, safety, uniform, and membership policies of today's Scouting then more power to ya. BW

Dan?? Please let me know if I misunderstood your post. "Seems like everyone is trying to push their morals on to other people, that is wrong, worse than cussing!" Are you suggesting that to require a Scoutleader to be 'Clean' is WORSE than his cussing? How is that possible? If a community requires that you not speed is that worse than the speeding?

Good decision Antigas, While it is rare that Eagle apllications are refused at the National level it does happen. Unlike other ranks where you advance immediately following the passing of a board of review, the Eagle Scout Rank is not considered earned until it is reviewed an approved by the National office. After which time the date of earning the award will be backdated to your bor. But according to the BSA Advancement procedures the candidate is not an Eagle until after it is approved at the national level. But congratualtions on this major step. BW

I think EO2 is just trying to understand how these kinds of things happen. They happen when units do not choose quality leaders and when quality training does not take place or is not attended. Had the committee been more diligent in their leadership selection and if they themselves were trained, in all likelyhood most of this incident would have been avoided.

The advancement policies of the BSA allow your Scoutmaster to be present and to answer questions dircted to him by the board for clarification purposes only. It was improper of him to ask questions, and improper for the advancement committee representative to not have instructed your scoutmaster before the board began of his limited role in the procedures. Will their mistakes effect the processing of your Eagle application? I would say the chances of that are very slim. Had you not passed the board it could have been grounds for you to appeal based on the violation. Congratulations on passing the board you are one step away from becoming an Eagle Scout. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Most councils I think would say 'no you do not'. Why would you not want to? Well for one thing, if it is not a pack or den activity you are not required to. Secondly, lets say your council does a Scouit night at a triple A baseball game. Any scout who goes in uniform gets a discout for him and his family members. So the council announces it to all units as an invitation to the families to attend. The pack simply announces the opportunity but does not ccordinate travel as a pack or den outing. In a pack of 90 plus families why would you want to gather 90+ driver licenses and insurance info when you are not required or even asked to?

I would excuse the scout from the situation rather than try and coax the adult away. For instance I would ask the scout or scouts to go assist cleaning the Quartermaster in order for the other adult and I to discuss an upcoming event. Once out of range I would ask the adult if he was feeling alright. If he wasn't I would suggest that it is showing in behavior that I would not expect of him, and suggest he go somelace where he could relax and we could talk later. If he insisted he was fine then I would tell him that his language with the scout was unacceptable and ask if he felt he had cause for such behaviour. I would explain to him that profanity toward a youth was a form of verbal abuse and was unnacceptable in the BSA program. I would suggest he consider apologizing to the scout(s), and I would explain to him that if this becomes a problem again that it will need to be addressed by the troop committee. I would finish by telling him I thought he was a better individual than to use language like that especially toward a child, and I would be surprised and seriously concerned if it were to happen again. The adults response would determine if this remained a private counseling session of if I needed to take it to the unit committee for their action. BW

Asking a child how they got a bruise is not investigating. It is really inportant to not only attend training but to be attentive at training. The video talks about this very thing, and one thing you will learn if you pay attention to kids is that they treat most injuries as badges of honor and are usually mor than willing to discuss where they came from. When a child has a noticable injury and says he doesn't know how he got it or gives an implausable answer that is a time for an adult to see a red flag. Now I am not suggesting that the authorities be contacted over one bruise, but certainly repeated situations with the same child is cause for concern. Be aware however that people who would hurt a child are often carefull not to inflict injuries in easily noticable locations on the body so a child with no visible injuries could still show other signs of abuse that you need to be aware of. Remember also that it is not unusual for kids or adults to develop injuries along the extremities. Hands, shins, knees, nose, are areas where people get most cuts, scrapes, and bruises. Cuts and bruises of the torso (front and back), back of legs, and neck, and localized burns (especially if not on the hands) are far less common, and could me reasons for concern. This is a situation where knowledge is better than a "well what if" skepticism. As far as the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu example. Dad should be able to find a sparring partner in another adult, and Johnny with another youth of his age and stage of development. I would be very concerned of a ANY adult taking part in a full contact sport with a child likely 20 years or more his junior. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi EO2 Sorry your son had such a difficult time. Two things seem to be the cause. No matter what the quality of your son's proposal was the Scoutmaster (if you quotes are accurate) showed very poor character in dealing with your son. Secondly there seems to be a general misunderstanding of the BSA Advancement policies and procedures by all the adults involved including you as the dad. The only Scout required to be involved in an Eagle project is the Eagle himself. In fact no other youth is even required to be involved. The committee should not have met to review the projct until the Scout was ready, there was no need to rush things for their own convenience. Prior to starting the project the scout just needs the "concept" for the plan to be approved. There is no part of this procedure requiring the scout to ge grilled by anyone. He needs the signature of the representative for the recients of the project to sign saying they are aware of the project and aprove of what the scout is wanting to do and how he conceptualizes doing it. EITHER the SM, Varsity, or Crew Advisor signs saying they approve. Then A member of the committee signs for the Committee. This can be any member of the committee. Nothing requires the scout report before the committee as a whole or a sub committee. The unit is not required to supply tools or bodies, and since tools were such an important element of the plan Steve should have had a plan B prepared to cover things if the troop tools did not show up (and it appears he did). The Eagle Project according to the BSA is done "ouside the sphere of scouting" meaning this is not a troop or patrol project and as such there is no need for the SM to be present. Often times an Assistant SM or I would be present only for a short time to observe from a distance to evaluate the youth's leadership in the project, and once we saw things were under his control we would quietly slip away. We have fought these misunderstandings and several more in the Disitrict our Ship is in (things like the myth that you cannot use power tools, or adults as workers...etc. or that you had to meet OSHA standards) for over 2 1/2 years, and have only very recently gotten the council advancement committee to see that they were imposing several artificial barriers for the scouts to have to hurdle instead of helping them enjoy this final step to Eagle. What your unit needs is training. I recommend you find a sympathetic ear in the troop leadership and get them to read the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. And go step by step through what the Eagle Project Workbook actually says. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The question isnt really if the scouts can do it. It is whether the experience is important enough for the adults to go through the hassle. That is the big hurdle." I think the big hurdle is that most leaders either don't know that it is an element of scouting, or they do not develop the scouts suffciently for the scouts and the parents to have enough confidence to do it.

The nyounger guys are not only going to be younger than the older scouts the first year, The younger guys will ALWAYS be younger than the older guys. So why not give them a year to get some basic skills under their belt as awell as a little more experience to allow them to be able to interact better with the 'older' guys when they are integrated in next year?

Some football heh? Tell you what Beavah since this ahs nothing to do with the topic of the thread and you originated the thread I will give you the choice of having me respond here, or if you wish you can originate another thread on the actual topic. (if an actual topic can be distiled from the post that started this.) I will check back tomorrow to find out what you want to do. I think there is a conversation worth pursuing if you would like to try it. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If I remember correctly it was "Billy Jack" I was a sophmore in High School at the time.

Yes you are correct, that is what the Scoutmaster Handbook says. But isn't that quote. from the first page of the Boy-Led Troop chapter? It is followed by the line "Scouts learn by doing, and what they do is lead their patrols and troop." Doesn't it refer to how scoutmasters are to coach and mentor the boys to be able to lead activities rather than the adults telling them what to do? It is not directly related to the purpose of scouting but rather to unit operation, specifically the Leadership Development Method and Patrol Method. Keep in mind that the Methods are not the goal of scouting they are the tools we use to fulfill the Mission. You have selected the correct resource, however the section that speaks to the purpose of Scouting comes two pages earlier. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

All of the alternatives you offer would be fine if the SM and SPL are behind them. Why would being a JASM cause the committee heartburn? He certainly meets the age ad rank qualifications and he was approved by the Scoutmaster at the time he took office. So why is the committee involved? Your son sounds like he would be a good person for the unit to hang on to, so I would think they would be able to find a way to keep him as active as his time committment allows. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

BSA Mission Statement "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Remember there is a difference between Vision and Mission. The vision of Scouting is a dream that we would all like to see happen but is unattainable. We will never reach "every eligible youth in America" we will reach those who join scouting and perhaps a few more, but you know as well as I do that to reach "every eligble youth" is not actually attainable, uit is a vision, a dream, a hope, a desire. Buit the Mission is why the BSA exists. 'The Mission is directly effected by using the Methods of scouting to reach the Aims of Scouting. Methods, Aims, Mission are the How we do, What we do, and Why we do of Scouting.' (BSA New Leader Essentials) (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is an americam indian game using a "snow snake" that is fun for all ages. You can probably find info on it on the Internet. Id involves taking a starignt stick about 5 or 6 ft long and seeing how far you can slide it along a snow track. Cubs can just use their hands, hith older boys and adults there is a leather thong you tie around your wrist and hook onto a noth in the stick to allow you to sling shot it down the snow track. It is not unusual to send it sliding over a hundred yards. The scouts really like playing it. Some have customized their own snow sticks with carvings. BW

Thats unfortunate Fire Kat, But I don't know that it is fair to anchor all kids together as having the same problem. There are some characteristics of kids that is inherent in most. Some are good and some not so good. B-P felt that juvenile deliquecy was caused by a combination of a childs natural exuberance combined with their lack of knowledge of the world around them, and that the soultion was to give them things to do with their energy while you taught them about their world. In the Ship I serve Scouts really want to get on the water, we use that exuberance to teach them things. In order to sail they need to learn specific skills and exhibit certain courtesies to others. We get comments all the time from members of the boat club that charters the Ship on how impressed they are by the scouts manners and helpfulness to the club members and each other. Perhaps you can find a way to take the scouts you serve and use something they enjoy doing and build an understanding of courtesy into it? BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And yet Gold Wing all the posts about "Bob White said" are for the most part not things I said at all. Many of the things I supposedly said were fabricated by the poster to misrepresent me, I have even given specific instances of that. I think our exchanges could be much more pleasant if a few posters could be more honest in representing the content of my posts. The story was to explain to folks that the image being generated by a few posters that I do not think there is flexibility in the program is hog wash. There is a lot of flexibility, but only to a point, if you change too much or remove or change certain elements then it is no longer scouting, I am sorry if that was not clear.

Again with personal attacks.

You will not find a single post from me where someone who wanted to learn about the Scouting program or needed an answer to a question was not treated with courtesy and given not only the answer but the information on where to find the answer and learn more about the BSA program. Veninividi why do you continue fabricating things that simply are not true?

Talk to your Scoutmaster about using the three tiered program format recommended by the BSA. Make 5 New Scout Patrols from the incoming scouts and assign an older scout with good skills and positive tempermant to each New Scout Patrol. Ask the SM to assign an assistant scoutmaster to work with the Guides and develop a program calendar to teach the new scouts the basic skills from Tenderfooyt to First Class. They should be able to teach, practice and apply those skills during the first 12 to 14 months in the program. Let the other scouts do a different program for the next year. Things that are more fitting with their age and abilities. You can wait for a year before you begin to integrate the new scouts in with the older ones. Let them get caught up to them in skills and abilities and a little closer in maturity before you try to push them together. Congrats on such an amazing growth spurt. BW

jblake47 Since when was leaving the program as a leader the Mission of Scouting? How does one coach a team if they do not know what the goal of the game is? Venividi, The 29% represents the percentage of direct contact leaders currently in units that have completed BASIC training for their position according to recent training figures.