Bob White

The first step would be to talk to an adult you trust. I am hopeful that would be one or both of your parents.

Pappy, isn't your base camp on private land?

Sorry for misunderstanding DDibbens, I thought you said that you had a copy of The District in your posession? Most scouters, especially those at the unit level, have never seen that manual, and most have never attended a District meeting, so the general understanding of what a district is and what they do, and how they do it, is largely misunderstood by the majority of volunteers. I see no need to reprint the contents of a 31 page brochure on a forum. But since you have a copy of the manual check out page 21 under the heading Meeting of the District. It addresses some of the specific complaints that have been shared thus far. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

you raise excellent points calico. The BSa and 4-h seem to share two out of the three basic principles, I am just not sure that I would be willing to give up God in order to be able to say that the BSA has X number more members than the 4-H has.

We do a Winter "Academy" Weekend. We start with a formal dinner in dress uniforms. We do some drill work, we have a PowerPoint Sea Scout Jeopardy Game they play. We use a very cool sailing simulator software to run virtual races to learn reading the wind and choosing courses. We bring in outside speakers to instruct on boat handling and boating safety. We had the Coast Guard Auxillary come in last winter and we fired flare guns. We have courses on boat maintanence, and we have knot tying contests for prizes. The scouts have meetings for event planning, and in the evenings we watch boating related movies such as Master and Commander or films from the Horatio Hornblower series. We finish with a Landship ceremony.

DDibben's There are 2,200 District meetings held every month, in how many do yo have direct knowledge of their operations? The one's in your council have the same ability as any pther district to follow the program and purpose of the committee as detailed in the manual, if they choose to. Over the years I have seen District committees that followed the BSA formmat and ones that did not, sometimes in the same Dis=trict just under different Chairpersons. ANY group's meeting quality is dependent on the group's leader. Selection ans training are the key.

While it is possible for this situation to happen it really shouldn't. A unit with a PLANNED program can see that the scout completes the recognistions in order even though he is able to complete work in any of the three lower ranks. I agree also that there is no significant new information to come from separate boards, but I am concerned about the length of time it will take the board to review all three ranks in one sitting. I would support doing one condensed board for all three ranks because that is the fairest to the scout. Then I think the committee chair and the advancement committee should have a serious talk with the SM about keeping a closer eye on the advancemet process and helping the scouts complete the ranks in order.

There are 2,200 District in the BSA. As you can imagine there are some that do their job very well and some that do it very badly and some that are somewhere inbetween. It all comes down to leadership and selecting the right people for the right job and training them to do it. Such is true of any committee. I think most scouters would be amazed to learn what a district committee meeting is really supposed to be and when the real work of the district is supposed to be done. And few understand the relationship between the Council and the district correctly. (if they did then District patches would have no importance to them.) (Eammon I believe the most recent version is the 2006 printing of the 1999 edition with the last major chnges being made in 2004(#33070E)).

The relationship between a unit and a charter organization is not unliek a marriage relationship. At the very beginning it was probably wonderful. What it becomes over the years depends in how much effort is put into the relationship. Who is more responsible for maintaing a marriage the husband or the wife? What causes one to become less interested in the other? Each is responsible but one over time one feels neglected by the other they will wander away. If you want to save the relationship someone has to be first to take the responsibility to take action to fix it. You need to seduce the CO back into the marriage. You need to court her, treat her as the special entity she is and win her love. Because if you give up and she throws you out, or you choose to leave...just remember... She keeps the house and ALL the assets that she wants. Over the years as a youth and adult I have been in 10 scout units, every one had a wonderful relationship with their charter organization, none better than the current unit I serve. Only one began that way, but through a conscious effort on the part of the unit leaders great unit/CO relationships were quickly developed. But complaining about them never made it better.

Your figures are incorrect. The total youth in the three traditional programs is over 2.5 million that does not include the adult volunteers in those program that toatl over 1.2 million. In 1960 total membership was about 5.1 million. 4-H is hardly a good comparison since it has a totally different purpose than the BSA. By the way did you know there is a BSA Camp Schiff again?

Actually What the BSA did was update the training to coordinate with the information in the Patrol Leader Handbook, the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook, National Youth Leadership Training, and Wood Badge for the 21st Century. The newest Troop Leadership training program has no video with it but has some very good training materials. It requires adult and trained junior leaders talking with and guiding the junior leaders into an understanding of theior specific responsibilities for their office and of the leadership skills that will help them to succeed. Its' not that the previous course wasn't OK it just was no longer current with the BSA leadership resources and training used by the youth and adults. You might consider unsing the current resources since they are readily available and are directly related to the new training course.

"Sounds like a local problem to me." Sorry for the simiarity local1400, I was refering to papy's previous post regarding loss of membership. While his council may be down, I know that cpouncils adjoining his have had increases in membership. Membership is controlled by the quality of the program delivery by individual local units. In the unit that pappy says he serves he admits they do not follow the BSA program, and that membership in that unit is declining. So what is his solution? Let's have MORE units NOT follow the program, that should boost membership! How? I am not sure anyone has an answer to that.

I am not so much a company man as I am a 'program' man. I think the BSA as a corporation has many of the same problems that most any company that size will have, primarily in the area of comminucations. But I think the program, when delivered as it is designed is second to none as far as youth development and fun. But I am curious under your plan who gets to determine what changes take place and how will the changes be decided.

Sounds lie a local problem to me. If some units have no problems growing and selling the scouting program and some units do, then the problem is obviously due to the leadership in those specific units. Afetr all we all have the same program and scouting resources at our fingertips. Pappy, you say it is up to the membership to right the ship but you have not told us how it would be decided as to which of the 2.5 million members would decide what to change and how it will change. Certainly everyone can't be in charge of the changes. "We need to sell this thing- and I'll tell you fellas- here on the ground in central Illinois- it is a really hard sell." You are having trouble selling 'your' scouting program?

Let who right the ship? There are 2.5 million members which one or ones do propose get to decide the direction of the ship??(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And the BSA would want to do this beause.......?

My apoligies to Beavah, it was BadenP who is miquoting me now, and I said it was Beavah. With all the misquoting going on its getting hard to keep the players straight. BW

Correct that is you permanent and unique identifer from now on in the BSA.

The specific ID number began a few years ago (perhas as much as 5 years). It used to be that when you registered in on a differnet charter you got a diffent. Now you have been assigned a specific national ID that will follow you throughout your scoutig from youth membership through adult service regardless of where you register.

"The point about using information from the old handbooks is that there are some great information in them missing in current handbooks, you yourself mentioned knot tying for one, I will add pioneering skills for another, as well as many others." WHY Beavah do you continue to so boldly misquaote me??? I never used knot tying as something missing from the current handbooks. I used knots as an example of older skills STILL IN the current handbook, as I might point out is Pioneering, as well as in a current merit badge. I must insist you show more care and integrity in how you represent what I and others have said. To think that many of the older skills are gone is simply unsupportable. Many of the older skillsare still present in the BSA. If you or other choose not to recognize that it is not the BSa programs problem. Look at the eraly skills of scouting; conservation, emergency preparedness, first aid, fitness, knots, pioneering, wildlife identification, hiking, cooking, camping, swimming, canoeing, wilderness survival, religious beliefs, citizenship, leadershp, patrol method, even astronomy are all still a part of the CURRENT program. The only skill I can readily think of that is not in the current program is tracking, and that doesn't mean it can't be taught (I don't have my Field Book handy but it might even be in there). So while some may "feel" that the original skills are not in the program, there is so much current evidence to contrary that such a claim cannot stand up to the light of day. Basicallly its just an excuse used by some who cannot or donot lead a quality program. Its a smoke screnn for them to say "oh you can't have a good program like the good ole days because the program has changed. Rubbish, the problem is untrained leaders not program elements. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

This is a great example of the needing to know and to use the scouting program. Patrol Leader training that focused on practical skills rather than "leadership theory." I read that as "if two tent-mates are having an argument, here's what to try" You cannot expect ANY course to be able to provide an example of how to solve each problem that may arise. That would be impossible to do. So instead the leadership training teaches leadership methods that can be applied to most any situation that arises. It is the 'teach a man to fish' rather than 'give him a fish' method and it is far more effective that trying to provide a scenario for every possible situation. "Outdoor challenges that demand personal skill proficiency. So a 15-mile no-adult small-group overnight rather than a 5-mile in-town day hike for second class." There is no reason why units should not be doing this. The program certainly allows it, the scouts would certainly welcome actual adventure. What is stopping you? It is amazing the outrageous number of leaders who do not even know that Patrol activities are a part of the program dispite the fact that it is taught at training and is in all the handbooks. Do leaders need EVERY activity they should be doing to be a rank requirement in order to get them to deliver the program. You need to read the handbook beyond the requirements pages. I first brought up the topic of Patrol activities 6 years ago on this forum and many poster, some of whom are probably still on the forum today were not aware that a patrol could go out without adult leadership, and I would be willing to bet that 6 years after learning they could that many of those same leaders still to this day do not use that part of the Patrol Method. "Emphasis on skill proficiency and retention (through retesting), rather than one-time testing." How often do you take the drivers portion for your license? I took it took it once 35 yars ago. Since then I apply the skill pretty much daily. IAs long as I am successful at it I will not need to kae it for about another 20 years. If you want scouts to mainatin proficiencey them give them the need and the opportunity to put the skill to practive, either in games at the meetings or during outdoor activities. pasrctice is what makes you proficient at a skill not testing! Learning through playing the scouting game (video-game type learning), rather than learning through instruction (school-type learning)." Tallk about a red herring. Every part of scout training at the adult and youth level to this day teach hands-on, active, fun learning. If a unit is doing sit down lectures for any siugnificant part of their program then they are not using the scouting model of teaching. Anyone who thinks that the scouting moedel of teaching is a sit down lecture style is simply ill-informed about the past or current methods. "It's OK to do "old" stuff - signaling, tracking, etc. Kids are still interested in that." You are right that it is OKAY to teach it. But don't expect proficiency unless you can give them opportunity to apply the skill. Nowhere does the BSA say you cannot teach these things to scouts, they simply are not a current advancement requirement but that does not mean they cannot be taught. We had a camporee a couple years back co-hosted with the Pheasants Forever organization. During the course of the weekend scouts learned about pheasant habitat, how to train hunting dogs, how to reload shells, the different tyles of hunting firearms, hunting safety, field stripping wild fowl. NONE of thses activities are related to BSA advancement. You are allowed and EXPECTED to teach other things! "After all, more than half of the video games they play involve medieval-era stuff." You would have to show the statistics on that one. "Greater emphasis on patrol method." The Scout Handbook, much of the Scoutmaster handbook, All of the troop meeting planners, all of the Scoutmaster training, the PL Handbook, the SPL Handbook, All STRESS the PATROL METHOD. If a leader or a unit has, after 97 years, not figured out that unit scouting is centered around the Patrol Method then I do not know how much more training or how many more resources must be provided. They obviously are not paying attention to the ones that are already available. "All those things seem pretty worthy things to remember and consider from the past, eh? And no one has said they aren't just that NOT EVERYTHING FROM THE PAST is worth keeping and doing. If there is something you want to introduce the scouts to from the past as long as you do it withing the safety policies of today's program you can teach them any past skill that you can interest them in. Why do some scouters continue to say that they can't teach skills from the past? the only thing stopping them is the same thing that evidently stops them from delivering todays skills as well. I first brought up the topic of Patrol activities 6 years ago on this forum and many poster, some of whom are probably still on the forum today were not aware that a patrol could go out without adult leadership, and I would be willing to bet that 6 years after learning they could that many of those same leaders still to this day do not use that part of the Patrol Method. That is not the failure of the ascouting program, that is choice of the leadership. 29% of direct contact leaders have attended basic training. Do not expect scout leaders to learn the program by reading hard to find past handbooks when they don't read the easily to find current ones.

When a Council rejects a unit fundraiser it does not mean that you cannot do the fundraiser, It means you cannot associate Scouting in any way with the fundraiser; No Scout uniforms, no scout emblems, no mention of scouting orally or in print. No use of scouting affiliation during the advertising, the event or any followup activity (such as product or service delivery) after the event. An outside organization such as a PTO doing a fundraising can give the proceeds to whomever they choose. If the BSA name and images are not invloved in any way then no Money Earning application need be filed for approval.

"Is a patrol required to ask permission of an SM before they go on a hike outside the confines of a troop activity? I don't think so but they will certainly need their parents permission." If they want it to be a sanctioned scout outing then Yes, they are required by the BSA to have the Scoutmasters perssion. (See the Boy Scout Handbook, The SM Handbook).

You will need to debate your specific example of your cut chin wih the child behavior specialist in the YP training. Your personal example is inconsistent with normal adolescent behavior. I have worked with a lot of kids and normally if you ask them how they got the bruise or how they broke their arm they go into great detail to explain the ride don dead man's hill in their wagon, or the stunt on the skate board that went wrong. And when it is the dad who hit them they usually "do not remember" or they "walked into a door". What you suggested in your posts has no relationship to the BSA Youth Protection training or to the responsibility we as volunteers have in the BSA to be aware of the welfare of the youth we serve.

An excellent point jblake and one that was raised se veral posts ago that there are still several skills and elements of scouting left from the past. My gosh, many knots go back to the ancient mariners. The mountains that were climbed by the scouts in the early 1900s are still there, as are the lakes and rivers. So to suggest that we have forsaken the past simply isn't true, we just learned a few better methods and grew up a little. But much of what was a part of scouting from Baden-Powell's philosophies to the gear we cook in has changed very little.