Bob White

scouldr You are partially correct. While it is the District or council advancement committee's responsibility to approve merit badge counselors, the troop shares the responsibility to recruit and train them (see the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual). And it is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to see that the counselor being used by the scout has been registered and approved by the district/council BEFORE the scout begins work on the merit badge. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

OK, Real World Stuff. I don't expect a scout to do anything he hasn't been taught to do. If we teach a scout that it's OK to wear jeans or BDUs and call it a uniform then that is what the scout will learn. Is he correct? Sure he is, because that is what we taught him. Were we correct? Nope, and we are the adults, we were taught right, or at least had the benefit of having the resources available to get the right answer. we as the adults either didn't learn or chose not to learn, but that is our problem not the scout's. If we wear the uniform and teach the scout what the uniform is then he will follow. We as the leaders have resources available to help him obtain a complete uniform. If we create artificial uniforms then have trouble understanding how to make the artificial uniform work with the real program, then that again is not the scout's problem. So as long as the scout is doing his best, showing respect for the flag (wearing or moving closer to a real scout uniform) I wouldn't correct him individually. I would do my best to follow the BSA program, set the right example, and teach the correct courtesies and continue to remember that the lessons of scouting are a process and are not learned and absorbed by boys overnight or in a month, or even a year. If I do my job right I will have 11 years or more to teach a boy character, citizenship, and fitness. But is all starts with me following the program before I can expect the scout to.

Any Scouter who was already registered prior to the relaese of the new aduklt application form was not required to fill one out. Merit badge counselors operate under far less peer supervision that unit leaders do when working in direct youth contact. So National decided and has mandated that all merit badge counselors fill out the new application so that the background check can be done. It is helpfull to understand that it was abuses discovered in the merit badge program that lead to the BSA Youth Protectyion program to begin with. The BSA does not want to see that be the weak link in our overall program again. I urge you to register your merit badge counselors as instructed.

FScouter is correct.

"However, I am convinced that in the past BSA turned a blind eye to the racism of leaders (volunters and pros) and to me that amounts to an implicit nod." The BSA has NEVER endorsed racism. The BSA operates in numerous countries, over 200 councils, over a thousand Districts, with millions of youth members and 1.5 million volunteers. There is no way that you as an individual had enough exposure to enough situations involving enough people to paint the entire program with so broad a brush. If a few individuals were responsible for offensive remarks or actions, they were wrong to do so, and they bare the entire burden of responsibility. If a profession scouters or any volunteer wearing the wreath of service turned a blind eye to it they were wrong and deserve to to be thrown out on their ear. But do not for a minute try to say that the BSA in any way condoned or allowed such behavior. You have no more reason to make that claim than the racists who slandered the BSA's image had in unwarranted behavior.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sure Eamonn, it's not a problem. The impotant thing is that all the uniform elements are present: shirt, pants or shorts, belt, socks. Uniform pants are fine just as a long sleeve t-shirt, sweat shirt, or polo shirt is acceptable. Remember, There are no dumb questions...unlike answers. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

This has been the standard procedure for at least the last two years. Merit badge counseling requires a seperate adult application even if you are already registered in other positions in scouting. There is no charge for application and it does not give you all the benefits that a paid membership in a unit or District/Council position gives you. The primary reason is for the safey and security of the scouts, and it must be complied with.

Hunt, I am not sure where you got your information on the history of the BSA. I am not aware of a time when the BSA discriminated based on color. At the inception of the program there were Scouts of various races. Granted, whites made up the dominant portion of membership. There were some segregated units, but that was do more to regional laws and customs and not the BSA. As Early as the 1920s there were integrated scout units and about 5000 scouts of color under black leadership in a fledgling program. So to say that the BSA changed its stand is not an accurate representation of history as I understand it. In fact it was society that eventually came around to the attitudes of the BSA. On your other issue, I think what many parents and leaders find annoying is the attitude of "rather than start an organization that represents our beliefs, we demand that you change your beliefs to suit us". Which is precisely the avenue being taken by politically motivated organizations trying to force themselves in the BSA as a means of justifying their lifestyle.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

boleta, please share the objective evidence you have that proves the narrowmindedness of the members of the board. As you prepare that keep in mind that to pass a board of review the decision of its members must be unanimous, that having just one unsatisfied member is enough to halt the advancement. Also, that for all we know the unusually long length of the board was due to the fact that they wanted to give the candidate every possible opportunity to present some evidence of having met his obligation to his Duty to God rather than refuse him the rank advancement.

Hi potlatch, I'm not sure what part is still unclear, so I will offer a quick recap. Youasked "If you are wearing a class B shirt, do use hand over heart or scout salute?" The BSA does not have a "class B " shirt. that is a military term and is not related to the BSA although many volunteers mistakenly do so. The BSA has fo its youth members and majority of adult vlunteers, two distictions in uniforming. The Field Uniform and the Activity Uniform. There is alo a dress uniform worn primarily by professionals though not exclusively. You can find these uniforms in the scout handbook, leader handbooks, and in program specific training. When in a BSA uniform it is most appropriate to use the related hand salute of that program. The BSA has three different hand salutes, one for each program. When out of uniform the civilian hand salute (hand over the heart is the more appropriate. However you will find the main thing is that scouts show respect to the flag in whichever salute they use. Do you have a specific question that was not answered by this?

OK NJ I will address this version as well. There is nothing in the BSA that keeps a member from being reverent regardless of how their religion views homosexuality. First, why limit this just to homosexuality. I know the religion I practice welcomes worshipers regardless of their sins. That doesn't mean that Scouting would welcome them as members. A thief is welcome to church, but that doesn't mean the church welcomes their sins. But that thief could not be a member of the BSA. Does that mean that no member of my religion can show reverence to God if they are scouts? Secondly, It is not the member who is discriminating against homosexuals in scouting, it is the BSA. Thirdly, The BSA has no specific requirement as to how reverence is shown by the member. Leaving the door open for the member to express his Duty to God in an unlimited variety of ways. Fourth, You continue to speak of a scout's obligation to his religion, but scouting speaks of the members obligation to God, which is not necessarily identical. So a Scout can show a reverence to God in ways not tied to specific religious tenets. Last, Do not confuse a church welcoming a sinner with God welcoming the sin. My Church welcomes homosexuals and adulterers, but God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone in it except for those who revered Him. I hope re-writing your post helped you to see the flaws in your argument more clearly. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

And all this time I thought what made something a prayer depended on who you were saying it to.

"If your religion happens to believe that God does not want us discriminating against those of his children who happen to be gay, then in fact the BSA does not allow you to be a member and at the same time be reverent to God in the manner of your own choice and custom." That is an absolute falsehood NJ and you know it. First I defy you to find one instance where a person was denied membership due to their religion want them to not discriminate against gays. Second. Homosexiuality and membership is a completely separate matter. The BSA requires every member have a belief in and give service to God. Is it your assertion that there is a religion that requires one to be homosexual in order to be reverent? And so by requiring reverence but restricting homosexuals that there is some religion whose members could not join scouting? Please enlighten us, who is this group?

"Do Scouts have real concern with the beliefs of other Scouts?" Bad question. What scouts think and what Scouting thinks are not always identical. Scouting thinks that a belief and duty toward God is a key componentent of the program. Do all scouts feel this way? That depends on how well the leaders deliver the program, and as you know from this forum not every leader follows the program. In units that are lead correctly, every scouting ideal is important. To everyone, What one or more adult leader believes in his personal faith is not relative or reflective of what the BSA stands for. Do not forget that the membership of the BSA is made of many, many, religious beliefs. The BSA is only concerned that the Scout or Scouter have a belief in God and gives service to God. The BSA accepts the fact that those beliefs come in many different forms and allows each to be reverent to God in the manner of their choice and custom.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Basically you have been told "I have been doing it wrong for 20 years and I am not going to change." You can win this battle by requesting the Council for an appeal, but the war will continue until this SM leaves either by his choice or by request. Your son can stay and learn a valuable lesson, that you can be miserable for a long time and still survive. Or he can learn a valuable rule of life, you don't have to hang around people who don't like you. Why should scouting make him feel bad? If you have other troops in your area they may be worth the investigation.

There are tools that you can use to help scouts learn to make decisions. For instance on the shirts. Lets say you have 8 boys in the PLC and each want a different color shirt. You have the SPL list the 8 colors, and each scout member of the PLC votes for three different colors. The SPL then keeps the top 6 vote getters. Then they vote again each for their 2 favorite colors, keep the top 3 vote getters. Then each votes for their favorite color. Keep the top vote getter. The lesson they learn? If you can't make one big choice make a series of small ones. Use the same method for what the design of the shirt will be. Use the same method for where to camp next. Scouts can do anything you teach them to do.

"If a person who doesn't recognize the presence of God could benefit from what Scouting offers, is that not worth more than keeping them out? But the opportunity to belong to an organization that values the presence of God and lets you participate with others who feel the same without having to debate or defend your beliefs is one of the benefits scouting offers. What is so unusual about having an organization that is limited to people of like intersts? Try getting to be a police officer if you don't believe in obeying the law. Try to join the army if you wont swear allegiance to defend the country. Try to be Rabbi if you don't embrace the Jewish Faith. See how long you will last in Little League if you don't want to follow the rules. Heck you couldn't join my mom's bridge club if you didn't at least want to learn how to play bridge. Lots of organizations are based on its members sharing interests, beliefs, or characteristics. So is Scouting.

"Never do anything for a boy that the boy can do for himself." Lord Baden-Powell founder of the Boy Scout movement

Sorry I thought this was included in my first post. We have a Chaplain and a Chaplains Aid, We start every meeting and meal with a prayer. Every Court of Honor has an invocation. Our scouts are encouraged to seek out the religious service award of their faith, We have a special scout service each February. We do service projects for the church that charters the unit. We have campfire conversations about Duty to God, and include questions regarding Duty to God and Reverence to God in Scoutmaster Conferences and boards of review. It has never caused a problem that we know of. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Which would mean what if a Scout was wearing his troop T-shirt (Class-B shirt for those who like that lingo), cargo pants, white socks, and sandals?" Since that is not a scout uniform it would be the hand over the heart salute (often refered to as the civilian salute). But the same troop t-shirt with scout shorts, scout belt scout socks, is a BSA activity uniform and the use of a Scout salute wold be appropriate. I would agree that the most important thing is that the flag is shown courtesy and respect.

"My rule has always been, when in an official BSA uniform (shirt at a minimum...." There are 1.5 million scout leaders. Should each be allowed to determine their own version of the uniform? Would it actually be "uniform" if we did? The BSA determines the uniform. Tiger cubs and Webelos have two uniforms, Wolf and Bear have one. Boy Scouts have two. (Venturers have to many to list). There is no "class A" or "Class B". "many Cubs choose NOT to wear neckerchiefs" I was unaware that neckerchiefs were made optional in Cubs Kenk. In fact the Cub Leader Handbook says that in Cub Scouts you should wear the complete uniform or no uniform at all. Wearing the Cub scout uniform shirt is just that ...wearing the shirt. It is not "in uniform". The BSA has a purpose for the uniform (no it is not to sell more uniforms so I ask the grouches to refrain from responding) please review the unoforming information in the Cub Program and consider the benefits to the scouts of returning to a proper uniform method. By the way to answer the question of the thread. You use the scout salute when you are "in uniform". That would mean any of the official uniforms of the BSA. Those would include Field, Activity, Dress. To understand which is which see the Insignia Guide, or attend Leader Specific Training for your particular program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The value of the Eagle Award is not what it has brought the people who have earned it. The Value is in what the people who have earned have done. What is the value of your Eagle award. We are all waiting to see. Most of us who have served the youth of the BSA are confident that you will represent the ideals of scouting in everything you do throughout your life. It is in using the lessons of scouting that you will gain your success, however it is you choose to measure success. Just as every scout arrives at Eagle by a different path, each person finds, and measures, success differently. I am hopeful that scouting has taught you some positive goals to aim for and positive ways to achieve them. How important is the Eagle Scout Award? That depends on what you do with the skills and traits that you developed as you earned it. Good Luck

Not at all Mark, We were responding to Fscouters comment that "The camp our troop will be going to says they provide the necessary staff to do boards of review. All we have to do is ask."

Scoutingagain you are correct in both of your last posts

It is unlikely that this will be a problem since it was two ranks back.