Bob White

In the Council where I serve as a district training chairperson the council supplied every District with a complete training kit for every Basic Training course. We do not charge for any of the following courses. Fast Start-Videos (supplied to every unit) New Leader Essentials Cub Basic Training Courses Youth Protection We charge only for food for BALOO Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training We charge $20 For Introduction to Outdoor Education and for Webelos Leader Outdoor There is no right or wrong to this. Each council is different and needs to do what works best for them to provide quality training experiences.

Nothing will affect a scouts opinion of scouting more than the quality of his last meeting. Nothing has a more positive affect on the quality of unit program more than trained leaders.

First RE-THINK YOUR PLAN. The Wood badge project is a patrol project that everyone shouild help on and it shouldn't cost anywhere even near the amount you mentioned. You need a plan B. There are lots of great photos in Scouting and Boys' Life magazines that you should be able to use. Also check out other council sites too, there are some great images on-line.

"The problems is that no one is volunteering to join the new den, especially if it means they may be asked to be its leader." Actually the problem is the approach being taken for the solution. The make-up of the dens and selection of leadership is the Cubmaster and Committee chairs responsibility. If they are waiting for people to volunteer or expecting parents to run up and ask to be leaders, then they will wait forever. That's now how to make it work. The Cubmaster and committee chair with input from whomever they want to include, select and recruit the leader ship needed to operate whatever number of dens they have or want to have in the pack. Then the Cubmaster and Den Leaders work to gether to determine the membership of each Den. Parents are then informed of who the Den leaders will be for their child (or children). It is recommended that the Den leaders then confer with the parents to find a meeting day and time that is the most doable for the most people. This is something the pack leaders make happen, not something they wait to happen on its own.

You have two problems, 1) too large a den, 2) not enough adult leadership. Splitting the den solves problem one, the sub Den ignores problem 2. Your greatest chance of delivering a quality program would be to select and recruit adequate leadership (4 adults) to lead two dens. Then you operate the program in a format that has been proven successful rather than trying to create a new type of den administration.

Excuse me Dave?, But I answered it twice. There is no National policy if a local one exists in your council we would have no way of knowing about it...YOU would have to find out. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eamonn, you too have probably been involved or at least hovered close to budgeting. Could you earmark any amount of money for "program" and have everyone else understand exactly what items that covered? Or would you have to be more specific and budget for specific elements? Do all councils have the same line items under "program"?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not in the training syllabus, but that you will have to talk with the host council to determine if the topography of the camp and the distance to program areas will require special adaptations for you. Sign-up!

BW Your question implies that you are ready to provide the administrative funding and support needs to run the Council that provides program to 20% of the available youth. No it doesn't!!! It implies that you made a very broad statemment and I have no idea what you specifically include in that category. It is the same as saying you think property tax money for the schools should only be spend on education. Well schools provide for an education, Scout Councils provide for a program. So what exactly are you saying??? Without a specific explanaition of what you consider a "program cost" your statement has no real meaning.

Is it against BSA national Policy? No it is not. it is in keeping with the example the Chartered organization wants to expose the scouts to? I don't know you will need to ask them. Is it the Scoumasters decision? That is a personal call. Personally, I would not have allowed it. If the individual really could not be without the taste of beer for a weekend he needs to be somewhere other than a scout activity. Hopefully seeking professional help.

"It's just obvious to those of us who have been around it, that he (or she) has had a few too many. What if the parent says that it's none of our business? Is there a clear policy?" That question assumes that if there is not a clear policy that there must be an unclear one. Let's phrase it more accurately. "Is there a national BSA policy that covers that situation?" No there is not. But the unit can have their own plan as long as it is not less restrictive than an existing BSA policy. "Another twist I just thought of... some religious groups are okay with the use of alcohol, while others are not. Does the CO's perspective play into this at all? For example, what if Johnny's dad comes to the Pinewood Derby after attending his church picnic (where beer was flowing freely)? The pack CO is the same church that hosted the picnic. Is there a double standard?" Not at all. You cannot compare the rules of a social event to the rules of a scouting event. The one area where you will find a gray line is during the course of an official church worship service where wine sometimes plays an important role in the sacraments. For the period of that service that property and that event is now a church. The BSA does not restrict the use of wine in a recognized religious service. "Now, if the pack is sponsored by a conservative group that doesn't approve of the use of alcohol, I could see the CO having a real problem with the dad's attendance" I think the key here is control. Is the adult in control of his actions and behaviors? I would not make an issue of a an adult who drank alcohol prior to attending a scouting as long as he is control of himself. It is unlikely the scouts would notice and if he is not interfering with the program, or anyone's health or safety, I would not make it an issue. However I would not put them in any supervisory situation for their own protection and that of others. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

My recommendation would be to open a discussion at the committee meeting. Make sure every understand their role and responsibilities when it comes to the policies of the BSA. Not every one is responsible for the same thing. The SM does not make policies on such matters but should have input and is responsible for upholding policies in his/her own actions and those of the people he/she supervises. The committee is responsible for enforcing the all policies of the BSA and creating environments that are in keeping with those policies (as is the Charter Organization Representative). At no time should a volunteer use physical restraint except as an absolute last resort. Some examples: A parent shows up noticeably drunk to a pack meeting. The committee chair should find a task outside of the meeting room to employ the parent until the meeting ends. Then the Committee chair or CR should inform the parent that a ride will be provided to take his family home but if the parent attempts to drive you will be forced to contact the police. A parent shows up drunk to a campout. Same thing find a task away from the boys or find the boys a task away from the parent. Contact another family member to come get the parent. In the mean time they are to have no interaction with the scouts until they are sober. If needed contact the authorities and have the parent removed. After any such situation the unit committee should send a written warning to the parent that such behavior is incompatible with the scouting program and will not be tolerated again. Any repeat of the incident could lead to their revocation of membership (if registered), banning attendance at scout functions, or if needed legal action. All Scouts and parents must be made aware that alcohol at any unit activity where youth are present, or on scout property, may result in immediate revocation of membership.

I would agree that your resonsibility ends at physical restraint. That adult is not the only one from that uit there and the scouts are their primary responsibility. Although you are on private property at some point that vehicle must exit the camp and access public roads. There is nothing wrong with you arranginging for the police to meet him at that point or soon after.

"The event was open to any registered scouts who were between 14 and 21." Thanks for the clarification. BW

The YP for youth programs focus on sexual and physical abuse.

"The Council must first agree that most of their efforts, time and money will be expended on program.' What specifically does that mean? Can you give a list of what you see constitutes program spending?

Don't know why they would do that the two programs are widely different. different methods, different advancement program, different administrative structures, different leadership positions, different membership requirements. it makes no sense.

Wojauwe, do not confuse a Venture patrol program with a Venturing Crew program they are to totally different things. Hotdesk, The scoutmaster should have assigned an Assistant Scoutmaster for Venture Patrols to the patrol to help guide train and motivate them. The Venture Patrol sis designed to be an older scout patrol. It should also be based on interest and abilities. You can have more than one venture patrol just as you can have more than one regular patrol or new scout patrol. If what you want is to stay where you are then stay there, you can still participate with the Venture patrol and you can help to develop their patrol leader by sharing your skills and experience with him. Good Luck, Bob White

What is the proper actions to be taken by a camp director, whether it be summer camp or a cub-parent outing, when there is alcohol present That depends on the council and the specific plan they have created for that specific camp. What is the proper action to be taken right at that moment? You should follow the reporting instructions given to you in your Youth Protection training. Notify The SE as soon as possible for infractions of the YP program. If you believe a crime is being committed then you should notify the local authorities. Scout Executives are not necessarily readily available at that moment. That is true, and your local council should have a way to take a YP report at any time. Ask your council office for your specific local plan. Additionally, if there is not a designated plan of action, shouldn't there be one? see the previous response I'm already resolved that nothing is going to happen with my incident. You do not know that nothing is being done, you just do not know what is. There is a difference It would probably be good idea to revisit the Youth Protection training in you council BW

Eamonn is correct.

OK One-hour How about this. Meet only with the PLC. Give them the G2SS section covering the water activities and a float trip planner. Explain in an overview how to tell required policies from suggested practices. Then tell the the troop wants do do this activty and will, just as soon as they make a plan that covers all the required policies. Allow them to ask questions of you at any time, but that their plan must satisfy all safety and planning requirements. All plans need to come from the scouts anyway, this insures the troop is ding activities the boys want rather than activities the adults want. Follow the same procedure for all activities. Give the boy leaders the resources and have them make a workable plan...no plan...no activity. Never withhold your support, information or encouragement, but never go unless the boys make a viable plan.

Actually you had the authority, responsibility, and the obligation according to the Youth Protection policies, to contact the SE yourself, and to contact the police once the adult took control of a motor vehicle. Did you? The YP policies do not say to inform the camp director, they say to tell the Scout Executive and the legal reporting authority in community where the violation took place.

I think the unit is trying to build a dollhouse using plans for a skyscraper. This is just a float trip in innertubes on a gentle current right? I think we can pretty well pass on the need for three hours of operational instructions. Your problem seems to be the inability of the unit leader or event leader to express the importance of the buddy system and pfds. You should absolutely not go on this trip, or any other for that matter, until the leadership has the ability to lead and the scouts have the ability to understand and obey safety rules. Planning also seems to be a problem in the unit. If two adults or a lifeguard and buddy go over the falls first. They set a point for the others to gather at, until the group has reformed, or, spotters can be set up along the course to track group as they pass. But the scouts have no right to dislike any leader when they themselves ignore their own safety and the safety of others by refusing to follow the safety policies for an event. So OneHour take comfort in the fact that you have not denied anyone their fun, by refusing to display the level of responsibility needed to do the activity they have ruined it for themselves and have only themselves to blame. Good Luck, BW

The national policy requires that the local scout executive be informed. What localized process might have been created within a specific local council camp would be ipmpossible for any of us to venture a guess at. However it would need to include informing the SE. Remember that any investigation always takes place after-the-fact.

Just as a clarification, and I know this may seem picky but in order to have clear communications you need a standardized language. Currently there are 4 levels of Junior leader training. This will change before next summer as the new curriculm gets released. Ther first two are found in the Scoutmaster Junior Leader Training Kit. They include Introduction to Leadership Conference. (a 15 min to 20 minute individual conversation with each Scout elected or selected to leadership to explain job responsibilities and set goals and expectations. and The Scoutmaster Junior Leader Training Seminar which is a half day team building and leadership traing session. The third step is JLT Junior Leader Training, which is a one-week training conference that is put on by the Council (not the unit). The 4th step is NJLIC National Junior Leader Instructors Conference Which is held only at Philmont Training Center and trains Scouts to leadt the council JLT course back in their council. Hope this helps. BW