Bob White

If the National Council of the BSA really does monitor this forum then I hope they will give this serious consideration (and yes this has already been shared with people on this committee and at national). I had the opportunity to hear and speak with a Council Commissioner who was at the recent 2 day commissioner confab at national to discuss sweeping changes in commissioner service. I was uninspired and unimpressed. Not in the individual but in the proposed "changes" being considered. First very little new was presented. It is still the same old things but with differnt recognition criteria. Making it more difficult to earn a badge will not solve the problems of commissioning. Second, until you scrap the "family doctor making house calls" model of unit commissioning you will never improve commissioner service. Does anyone know a doctor who makes house calls? Why do you suppose that is. My father's doctor made house calls once he was to ill to be able to leave the house but that was the only time. Why do you suppose it is that doctors don't make house calls any longer? It's because they can do more good for the patient if the patient comes to where the doctor and the doctor's resources are. We need to get more leaders to training not more commissioners to meetings. Second, there are not enough qualified commissioners to do the job. Making demands on the number of visits UC musdt make will not give you enough UCs to make the visits. The characteristics needed for effective Unit Commissioning are harder and harder to meet. Why is that. Well let's look at who usually gets tapped as a UC 1) unit leaders (bad idea, no objectivity, many untrained and set in personal habits) 2)former leaders (why are they former...burned out, failed programs, replaced, Most failed to keep up with changes in the program since the last day they attended training.)These are not good qualifications for commissioning. We need happy communicators who support the official program and can be taught the many and various resources of scouting. I belive that we need to use commissioners to solve our most pressing issues. 1) Charter Organization Relationships..Scouting is being abandoned by COs because they are caving to outside political pressures. Why? because to most COs today we are unitsd that "meet there" and not "Their Scout units". De's do not have the time to meet the membership and finanacial demands of the council and reinforce charter relationships. it is the IH and CR that the UC should be meeting with regularly not the unit leaders. 2) Membership Retention a)We lose most scouts in three key transition periods. b)Their first year in cubs, their last year in Webelos c)Their first year in the troop WHY? POOR UNIT PROGRAMS! If units took their responsibility to select quality leaders seriously and if the COs made training mandatory we could turn those numbers around almost overnight. 3) Program quality Commissioners should be the hosts of and quality monitors of all training. Kids aren't staying not because they don't like the scouting program but because they do not get a scouting program. Look at the majority of the posts on this board and you will get all the evidence you need. Most posters write in for help because a leader or leaders are not following the program. Look at the majority of people who brag about not using scouting methods or of misusing scouting methods, mosdt are troop unit leaders. In a past thread many said they PLAN to lose 50% of their scouts the first year. PLAN TO! Solidify the programs role within the CO. Get CRs involved in the district. Get COs to make training mandatory. Thses are areas where commissioners could make a difference. Finally Making commissioner visits a basis for earning Quality Unit Awards is a horrendous plan if actually enacted. You cannot make one persons recognition dependent on another persons actions. If you want to add soming to the QUA make Roundtable attendance mandatory. Say that each unit must have a representative at 9 Roundtables in a 12 month period. Commissioner service needs an overhaul, it needed it 30 years ago and we could have avoided many of today's scoutings problems. But until we scrap the family doctor model, and use knowledgable scouters to represent the program to the COs in order to 1) Improve BSA/CO relationships 2) Increase CR participation in Scouting Administration 3) Increase the quality of leadership selection and development then we are just painting a new face on a very ineffective service branch. I understand that the new commissioner plan is about ready to be released. If it resembles what I learned about this past weekend it will fail. Just because a plan is made it is not too late to change course. Had the Titanic been shown the iceburg in advance they could have chosen to change course, or they could have said "well our course is already set, I guess we can do nothing but continue". I believe the future strength of scouting is dependent on the tasks that should go to the commissioner serve corps. Bob White bobwhitebsa@hotmail.com

OK, Let's say that National does monitor scouting forums. First I would hope that is not a paid position. Second, if we are really going on that assumption could we show them that we can put a little more thought into our suggestions other than, "use better materials and lower the prices"? I would have to believe that this has crossed their minds more than once. Could we be more specific than 'we need different uniforms'? we already have different uniforms. You are going to have to be more specific. Could we quit with arguments over high priced. Facts have proven over and over that the current uniform is one of the lowest priced and cost effective uniforms in any youth program. Note to national... No matter what the next uniform is there will be tens of thousands who will not wear it correctly if at all and will continue to blame you for getting it wrong. You cannot please millions of people no matter what you do. Continue to do your best and the volunteers who wear it now will wear it then. For those who have been unable to find the address for the National office, even though it has appeared here several times, even though you can get it from your local professionals, even though it appears in a number of scouting materials, even though it is available on-line, even though it is listed in the phone books for Irving TX. It is: BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA NATIONAL OFFICE P.O. BOX 152079 1325 Walnut Hill Lane IRVING, TX 75015-2079

Pack committees to complete basic training must attend New Leader Essentials and Pack Committee Job Specific Trainiing. Troop comittees attend New Leader Essentials and Troop Committee Challenge The advanced course for either once basic has been completed is Wood Badge for the 21st Century Supplemental courses for Pack committees include University of Scouting, Pow Wow, Roundtable, BALOO, Youth Protection BW

FB writes Let's assume for a minute that what we are doing is complaining. Does this complaining work or is it like shooting our guns in the air and letting the bullets fall where they may? I think that is an excellent comparison. Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of firearms understands what an irresponsible behavior that is, and a lousy way to hit a target. Why not learn how to aim the gun at a specific target and fire once? He continues Let's also assume that none of us are in a position to make any changes and do not have any connections to anyone in authority. This should make what we are doing a type of speaking out loud to each other or mumbling to our own self. It should go nowhere. Mumbling to oneself in a crowded room? Wouldn't you expect those around you to question your stability and capacity? Is there anyone who has taken training who does not know where their council or national office is? Many posters have no problem finding forums like this on the internet but somehow they can't find the mailing address to the BSA? Now, what evidence do we have that any of it matters? 1. The number of people that come here and just read. There are hundreds that come here according to the numbers on the letterhead. These people are searching for answers and we are spouting answers everyday. Don't they deserve real answers rather than personal angst. This is a scouting forum, why aren't scouting answers more available? 2. Someone belittled a Scout Camp once and there were several quick responses by many that we have not heard from since that episode. Come to find out, that Scout camp had many advocates. More conclusion leaping. You have no facts as to why you have not seen some of those posters again. For all you know it was an orchestrated mail barrage. You don't know, so instead you manufacture an opinion that fits your purpose. 3. Those with vested interests are ready to defend to the death their stand, belief, or thoughts. Try reading the opinions sometime. Who do you see with vested interests? Other than fulfilling their personal obligation to the youth they serve what reward does anyone who follows the program get? 4. Look at the bios or the personal information that people give. People are from all over the country/world that writes here and many are in positions of authority in the Scouting community from all levels. Why then are more posters, who have all that experience, not more aware of the actual program methods and how they work. Why do so few know the resources of the program, its policies and procedures. Why are so many unit volunteers writing in with problems that almost always are based in a leader not following the program either from lack of training and knowledge or from prefering to do things their way due to all their "experience"? 5. There are those that feel strongly about Scouting and have studied it and experienced it in depth. Most all of us are careful about what we say because spouting invalid information is hardly ever allowed. The reason? Many will read it and we want to give the best that we have because it may make a difference for either one or a million. How awful to have to be careful about spouting incorrect information. If posters write in with scouting problems, what keeps more posters from giving scouting solutions. Are there perhaps hesitant because they have seen how the few posters who follow the BSA program are personally attacked by those who do not follow the program on this forum? 6. A Scout is helpful. FB A scout is also Trustworthy, Loyal, Obedient, and Brave, at least if you are going to follow the program on this forum you will need those traits. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The actual figure in 2004 was just under 5%, and it was the highest percentage in the BSA history. For the past 30 years it has fluctuated in the 3% to 4% range.

How about following the Scouting program as it is in the Boy Scout Handbook, since that is the resource material for the scout and has the explainination for each requirement? What the father thinks is not relevant to the policies of the BSA which tells you that you cannot add to or subtract from the requirements of the BSA. Since you are asking about rank requirements what a mert badge says doesn't matter. The requirement for Second Class 2A says very clearly "troop or patrol" campout. 2b says that while on that campout sleep in a tent YOU have pitched. It does not say an RV or trailer it says tent. The closer you follow the BSa program the fewer problems you will have. Rather than decide by opinion why not decide by the BSA program? BW

Please provide the 10 different logiocal interpretations for.. "The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform." BW

VAscouter, While I empathize with your frustration and agree that a MB counselor should be willing to work with any scout thay are not violating any rule as far as I can find. If your SM is concerned about the situation he should notify the District advancement committee. BW

Actually my wife works for a large corporation and our family has relocated four times due to business.

Any Pack that does a Family Camp is required to have a BALOO (Basic Adult Leader Ouutdoor Orientation) certified adult leading the event. A Webelos leader wanting to complete their basic training continuum must take Webelos Leader Outdoor Training (WLOT) which in some councils is called OWLS. The two courses are completely different. BALOO focuses on the planning, safety and hygiene requirements for Pack Family Camping. WLOT focuses on the requirements for the Webelos outdoor theme activity pins. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I will let your own words speak for you Back packer quote 1 "IMHO this was a flagrant violation of the spirit and purpose of the scout law,in spite of what BW may think. Back Packer quote 2 Bob White- I have not and would never speak for you on any issue. I never said I thought skipping over requirements was OK, you said I did. BW

"don't listen to what some folks tell you you don't have authority to do (though they are right)" Don't listen to people even though they are right. Well there's a strategy for success. (feeling is mutual Ana)

Thats a good question Ed, allow me to explain to you how this works. You are right, the board cannot retest. They cannot say "show us how you participated in 10 troop or patrol activities including three campouts, do one for us now." What they can say is "the requirement says to participate in 10 troop or patrol activities including three campouts. Tell us about the three times you camped? If the scout expalins that the campouts were with his family and not the troop, then the board can hold his advancment until he completes the requirement according to the handbook. You can find an explanation of the bor's responsibilities in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Handbook, or at Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. The difference is following the requirement and being signed off and not following the requirement and being signed off. I hope this helps you, BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Once after a job transfer I found myself in a new council. Since I had no unit connection at the time I volunteered on the district and was asked to be Boy Scout Roundatable Commissioner due to my unit leader and training background. I went to that month's Roundatble just to see what it was like before I decided. It turned out to be 4 to 5 scoutmasters sitting around a table in the scout office and for 90-minutes they complained about the council, and national, and the uniform, and anything else they could agree to bemoan. I asked the DE how long this had gone on..."2 years" he said. I sent out a flyer for next month's meeting with the agenda of the things we were going to do and learn. At the bottom was a picture of a curmudgeon and the words "If all you want to do is complain about scouting, then don't come, you won't enjoy it." Only one of those men showed up, and 36 other scouters came. Within a year or so it was over 60 participants at the Boy Scout Roundtable. 98% of the troops were represented. As you entered each month was a sign that said "Those who say it can't be done should stay out of the way of those who are doing it!" I rarely saw those original 4 again. They rarely did anything to help support a unit or the district, but the fact was they never did. Take a look at this forum and the people who come to ask for help, offer answers, explain the program, and those who come to whine about what is wrong with 'council' and 'them' and the uniform, and the handbook, and the policies, and on and on and on. It seems obvious the majority are here to participate in a virtual Roundtable and get ideas and skills to better serve the youth in their community. If you see people, whose primary skill is complaining, as a resource then I think you misunderstood the content and context of that skill. There are some posters here who can really help units grow and enjoy scouting. There are some here who cannot. I am perfectly comfortable with the quality of posters who have welcomed my participation. And I understand completely why you do not. You would not have enjoyed my Roundtables either. Gosh it sure is fun to be back!

Sit out and let you misrepresent me? I don't think I am required to let that happen, am I? What you describe and what VAordeal described are two completely different situations. The BSA Advancement Policies and Procedures specifically allow for parents who are registered and approved counselors to counsel their own boys, wards and relatives. Those same policies also allow a scout to earn as many merit badges from one counselor as that person is registered and approved to counsel So what VA described is allowed. So unless someone has evidence that he was not required to complete all the listed requirements for a badge nothing wrong was done. (I am confident that VA even with the age difference beteen you and him, understood that I was trying to explain that he needs more real evidence before he continues to denegrate the other scout's advancement or the mother's actions). Your situation on the other hand backpacker is an allegation that the advancement requirements were altered. And that is a direct violation of the BSA policies. You cannot add to or delete from any advancement requirement. If someone had evidence that the scout was not advanced then they should report that to the District advancement committee. Now there is actually a few culprits here if the allegations are true. The SM may have signed the book, but who sat on the Board of Review? It was the bor's responsibility to see that the the scout fulfilled the requirements as stated in his handbook. Did they ask about what troop or patrol outings he used to meet the requirements? You cannot fault the boy for the father and the bor not following the rules. Once the board has passed the scout there is no removing the rank, BUT the adults can certainly be set straight. While you are of course welcome to your opinion it has no effect on the advancement policies or procedures of the BSA. I will thank you in the future to post your own opinions and not try to determine or represent mine, and I will do the same. I do not believe we share enough common experiences for you to guess what my opinion might be. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The only way I am aware that it can be done is if the members joined a CO within the geographic boundaries of the other council. BW

It is always good in cases like this to eliminate the exaggerations and focus on facts. For instance. You know it is impossible for her to counsel a million merit badges as there are not anywhere near that many. How many did she actually counsel her son on? How do you know for sure that no scout from any other unit goes to her? Is the scoutmaster concerned that she is not qualified for some of these mbs? Has he told the council of his concern? Did the scout meet the requirements for the badges? Unless you can honestly answer these questions with factually knowledge then it's gossip and you need to reconsider you participation in spreading it. I understand your frustration but do not let it cloud your judgement as a scout. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is why I ask Lynn. the reason that you need a council invitation to attend Philmont Training Center (PTC) is that the conferences are very small in group size. 70 is about the max they can hold with most classes in the 20s or 30s. Because of that the BSA wants to make sure that the space is taken by someont the council sees as a long term member who will be a benefit to those they serve at the unit, district, or council level. If you were going to be moving out of cubbing in 18 monthjs and I was a DE looking at philmont choices I would send someone with more years ahead of them in the cub program. If you are looking to stay on I suggest you give some thought to what role you want to play in scouting. If forintance you were going toi be a pck trainer then I think some of the first courses you selected would be ideal. If yyou wanted to work at the district or council level to increase scouting among the home-schooled population (A great idea by the way) I would share that with your DE and ask for an invitation to that course. So do some introspection and choose a lomg term path, then ask for a conference that would help prepare you for that mission. I think you would get a lot from PTC and I hope you do get the opportunity to attend. BW

While you may be totally correct in your evaluation of the personand the problem, you have no more authority in the matter than you had as a Den leader. As the CM you are responsible for the program. You have no authority in the disposition of this person or any persons role in the pack. Please consider what Eamonn and I have shared with you. Unless you get the CC and CR to make this decision you are well out of the boundaries in your role with the pack. Sorry to see you have such a problem in the pack. BW

Every satff member and participant will recieve a total of two patches upon full payment of fees. They can order extras using their personal ID numbers on the back of their jamboree catalogs. NO patches of this type will be sold at Jamboree. The patch on sale their will be a "visitor's" version and not the staff or participant version.

You assume that belaboring the point with us on the forum is the same as giving the information to the BSA, and that is a huge assumption. Why take the chance that complaining here will be accepted with the same weight as a well constructed recommendation to the people who actually make the decision would be? If they have a suggestion for improving the uniforms then rather than telling the unit they don't have to follow the BSA program, why not tell the people who make the decision about you preferences. The goal of these people is obvious, they are not out to create change or they would have taken the appropriate action. They like to complain, and they have found a couple topics where have have found a few sympathetic ears. It's just a big pity party. I don't care if people have differing opinions, but if you say your a scouter then have the commitment to follow the scouting program. If you say you want to see change then tell somebody who can change it. If all they want is to show us how much they are suffering then please at least suffer in silence, there are others try to get some work done. "A scout is obedient" says that if you follow the rules, and if you don't like the rules then you work to change them. Complaining to people with no power to enact change isn't work. As my bricklayer father-in-law says. "Any fool can knock a building down, it takes a craftsman to build one." If they don't like the uniform get to work and build a new one, and then tell someone who can do something about it. Complaining is not skilled labor.

I have not seen anything aboutthe participantys getting a neckerchief but I would not be surprised. Your local Jambo committee should be able to tellyou. I did get a written notice that sataff will recieve a neckerchief and something else at check in. I will take a look at that letter again and let you know. BW

I know exactly what you mean. I used to leave my uneaten pizza lying around the dorm room for weeks as a student. Years later I saw the chia pet industry explode. Who knew??

Hey le Voyageur Why is it that some say I keep them sane here while others say I drive them nuts? I started my own company in August doing advertising specialties, custimed apparel, banners/billboards and the like. Business has been incredible. I spend most my day in my home office shopping, doing artwork, invoicing and the like. So I have lots of computer availability. But I'm just getting my systems undercontrol so things are starting to get a little more sane. If youever need tuques with the crew logo on them, I can do that! Thanks for inquiring! BW

le Voyageur I am glad to hear you realize it was probably just an office error. Unfortunately that was not the conclsion that some leaped at with apparent vigor. I am sure that a note saying that those names are not applicants to that unit would have been sufficient to get the problem out of your lap. (finding the right balance of meds is always tough, I battle that constantly )