WAKWIB

crazycrow.com

Good place for Native American craft supplies and stuff.

ok gwd, you took the first step. But the "official" 2nd and 3rd steps involve a Higher Power. And when this group gets to talkin' religion it's sort of like trading pure cocaine for meth cooked in someones bathtub. And we just become enablers to your addiction. To effectively beat an addiction, one approach is to find different "playgrounds and playmates."

So, I guess my advice is to surrender and embrace the sickness.

And pray your computer never crashes!!

The 11th priority, IMHO, is the hinge on which the other 10 will swing. And given the past track record....well, I'm not to optimistic that the dem-dominated Congress can rise to the occasion and fulfill number 11. Maybe they will prove me wrong. If they don't prove me wrong, expect a repub. tidal wave in two years that will sweep the congressional elections.

It is a grand thing to get that kind of good report.

Scout Spirit like that on display covers a multitude of "sins", and makes one both humble and proud that we get to do this Scouting stuff.

My llama lies over the ocean,

my llama lies over the sea.

My llama lies over the ocean,

oh, bring back my llama to me!

Bring back, bring back, oh

bring back my llama to me,

to me!

Bring back, bring back, oh

bring back my llama to me!

----------------------------

I ride my little llama in the summer when it's hot.

I ride my little llama in the winter when it's not.

And sometimes in the springtime,

And sometimes in the fall,

I ride my little llama with nothing on at all!

I would certainly interpret time spent planning and implenting fundraising for a specific physical project to be a part of the project itself. Just a fund-raising drive alone will not constitute a Leadership Project.

Really the only thing you can do if in doubt is consult with the District Advancement Chair. Maybe even get his definition in writing before you proceed, because there may be others on his committee who could review the project with their own opinion. Hopefully they are on the "same page".

Do not have the Scout do anything (even fundraising) before the project has been written up and before it has been approved by the District and the benefitting agency.

The Scout should read and re-read the workbook and follow it to the letter. It is not unusual to have to present a project more than once in order to have it approved. A lot depends on the completeness of the project description.

(deleted double-post)(This message has been edited by WAKWIB)

SWScouter,

Would be best to roast WAKWIB on a seperate fire, so to not tarnish the remains of Old Glory.

The training and official literature aside, there is a mountain of details that could be documented. CalicoPenn gave a lot of good examples. SOP does sound a bit to ironclad. You might put some of it into a FAQ format. Other things that require more detailed info. could simply be called Guidelines

OK. I have been a very bad boy. I never saw or participated in a flag retirement ceremony until I rejoined Scouts as a leader. Having heard that line about BSA being "authorized" to do flag retirements from several Scouters with way more experience than me, I assumed it was gospel. And I have shared that urban legend with others. I stand corrected.

You have my permission to toss me on the grill!

I may enter a more detailed post later on this topic. But I imagine most of what I could say will be brought up by others.

I think that the most important concept we as leaders need to keep in the forefront is that the Scouting program is a learning experience. The boys (and honestly, the leaders at well) are all on a infinite trail of learning and experiencing the Scout Oath and Law in our daily lives. Each member of Scouting is at a different point on the trail of learning what Duty to God and Reverent means. Our job as leaders is to help in the learning experience. There are many ways that can tranlate into our interactions with Scouts. Obviously we cannot be dogmatic and force our views on others. We do need to look for ways to expose the boys to activities that may heighten their awarness of a higher power.

A couple of things in response to John-in-KC's original post on this thread.

"How Can a Youth Program Member who Proclaims Atheism make an ethical choice to be in Scouting?"

I have a rather hard time understanding how a person who sincerely proclaims to be an atheist makes any 'ethical' choices at all. What really informs that person's thought processes? I would think that they would have a difficult time working out the Oath and Law in their daily life. A true atheist would, in order to arrive at their conclusion of atheism, have to largely abandon the testimony of their conscience. If there is no accountability, why should anyone feel compelled to do their best for others and to lead a lifestyle that reflects Trustworthy, Loyal etc.?

I tend to think that a youth (my point of reference here is the 11-18 group that most of us Scouters work with) who claims to be atheist, has not really delved deeply enough into that claim to be intellectually honest. For some it may simply be a catch-word that means..."Look at me, I'm rebelling against my parent's religion." And that is not the same as atheism.

As has been discussed in a variety of ways on these forums, there are many kids who come to our program simply for fun. They don't wholeheartedly embrace the aim of character development. That aim, I don't think, is in the forefront of any kid's mind when he joins Scouts. It runs in the background, and it is the job of the adults to see that it keeps running.

"How can the parents of an atheist place a young man in a program where God/gods are a primary point?"

Now for a parent that aim, and something about God as a part of that aim, maybe a strong reason to bring their boy to the program. They may see it as an opportunity to bring an understanding of God to the young man "through the back door", so to speak. Or, at least, that some of the values expressed in the Law would rub off.

Although I never claimed to be an atheist as a kid, I did have a certain agnostic/irreligious/rebellious streak. For me, Scouting was one of the avenues that God used to win me over.

(This message has been edited by WAKWIB)

Regardless of how OK according to policy it may be, the situation does beg the question of how truly effective of a leader this gentleman may be. Can a guy really give due diligence to 5 different volunteer positions. Each one, if done properly, take up a lot of time. Assuming this fellow has an abundance of time and super-human organizational/management skills, would there still be a possibility of a conflict of interest somewhere along the line? Maybe he could step back from one or two of those postions and give other good leaders an opportunity to serve.

standerson:

Please update us sometime down the road, and let us know the outcome of the difficult situation. Any Troop, even ones that try very hard to keep problems from happening, can be faced with this sort of thing. I think this would be especially true with a large, busy Troop. I think that the bigger you get; (not a thing wrong with that BTW) the cracks in the system can get bigger as well.

dittos to uz2bnowl. First Class would be a good benchmark rank for that position. If he literally has just crossed over to the troop, no way he is ready to be a den chief.

For some reason "Ollie Fitzgerald" came to my mind immediately. It also sounds good if he is ever a bad boy and needs to be addressed by his full name "Oliver Fitzgerald". Sounds very aristocratic.

I have to think back a bit since my experience at NCS was in 1981. I was doing the Aquatics Director course, so I could serve as Ass't Lakefront Director at my council camp.

My instructors were top-notch and I really hope yours are as well. I walked away from the experience feeling very confident and qualified. I was totally busy everyday. There was very little down-time. We even had instruction well into the evening after dinner on most nights. Had a bit of a culture shock as I grew up at a huge mega-camp. The camp where NCS was held was very, very small so when I did have a bit of time to explore, getting lost would be impossible.

I felt like I was being trained the "right/best" way, and unlearned some old habits and ideas. Got to meet and work with a bunch of great guys from around the region, and also grew closer to the guys from my council that were attending.

A real plus was that I got super-training, 3 meals a day, and a tent to stay in, all for free. You'll have a good time, I'll bet. And really, you should consider it a bit of an honor to be selected by your council to lead that department next summer, and to be able to take advantage of the National Camp School experience.

I would hazard a guess that many of the questions you might encounter, would boil down to what are the methods of the Venturing Program. So were I in your shoes, I would have a real clear vision of those with good examples of how they work. Funding for the crew will probably pop-up in the discussion. Membership might also be a question...ie: is the potential CO prepared to work with a co-ed group? Since some are "decades" away from any Scouting experience, this might be an interesting twist for them. They may also ask, and we should hope that they do, what kind of training is required and available to potential adult advisors for the crew.(This message has been edited by WAKWIB)

Eagle92 sez: "We actually caught an adult poser trying to get into our lodge without undergoing the Ordeal."

Glad you nabbed that rascal. Would love to hear that sad, but certainly interesting story someday.

For MSWEIHE. Knowing that records can be totally bungled, my only suggestion would be to "be prepared" to do the Ordeal again. Shouldn't have to be that way. But if a lodge is presenting many hurdles to your membership, that may be really the path of least resistance. As an adult, your status in the Order is totally limited to an advisor role at the most. You could actually take away a lot from a "fresh" Ordeal and then step right up a seal your membership in the Brotherhood degree. There is a ton of good philosophical training to be had in walking that path.

Great that there is a positive representation of Scouting on television. Is it just me, or does it seem to you all that Scouting does not utilize the mass media to promote itself as well as it could?? That might be a subject that has been recently hashed over on here. But I would welcome any thoughts on the matter.

E-

With your obvious know-how and connections, you of all people could get something like this off the ground.

From what I have observed of my college son and his peers, they are time constrained beyond belief. Between college organizations, frat and sorority, sports(or music or theatre etc..) part-time jobs, and yes, schoolwork, they seem to pass themselves coming and going. I appears that their main time for socializing is between the hours of 10pm and 3am.

The college boys I know that staff our camps year after year, are very faithful when it comes to summer camp, but are not very active in Troop or Crew activities. I think if you were to ask them about it, they would say they would very much like to but have no time.

Not trying to squash your idea. Like I said, a guy like you could probably get it flying. Your biggest obstacle(obvious to you I'm sure), is working around their overwhelmed schedule. Working something into the "breaks" would be a good place to start.

The "dorkiness",in my opinion, may be more a result of the gentleman's physical profile than the uniform. The ladies did not have that problem at all.....'nuf said.

I "lost" the memo on Cooking MB. When will it become Eagle Required? How will this apply..that is, if a Scout is at Life rank and has all the required badges. when the change takes effect will he need to back-track and do Cooking. I do like the re-intro of that badge for Eagle. Just like to know when and how. I'm sure it has been answered before, but I go for long periods of time without getting on these forums. Thanks in advance for the info.

I think Orienteering would be a good one to add. The activities required would make for good campout and summer-camp program features.

And I think that Citizenship in the World would be a good one to remove. Not really a lot of hands-on in that one; (seems more like school work...yuk!!)

If the Scoutmaster is being "secretive" you can expect many more situations like this one. Open and honest communication is one of the most necessary skills of a useful leader.