Vicki

Doc, I guess I just don't see the boogey-man here. It seemed to me that he was asking a protocol question based on the fact that Vigil is the highest honor that OA can bestow and he wanted to make sure it was handled correctly. Seems like a go-along to get-along type of question which is what greases the skids of human relationships. Every reply said it was totally appropriate and some, like myself, cited experience with other lodges. Most said to inquire, anticipating a positive response. The example of Christmas presents was given. To get to basics, since I'm a bit of a wordsmith - "mystique - an aura of heightened value, interest, or meaning surrounding something, arising from attitudes and beliefs that impute mystery to it." I believe the desire to preserve the "wow" of the experience is being expressed here and the source of what you have perceived as "negative reactions." But you are, of course, entitled to your own opinions. Vicki

and taking things out of context is a problem. This is what emb posted, "Yes, the OA ceremonies are not secret. But they are not public either. If you have people who have an issue, the first thing is to show them the ceremony books and if they still want to observe, then, yes, you let them. But the ceremonies should not be turned into a public spectacle like a high school graduation where parents and assorted family members of scouts are there to see it. " This is the general tenor of this thread and with this, I absolutely agree. Vicki WWW

Tokala, agreed wholeheartedly. I, too, never equated the diversity ticket item with "political correctness." I find that a buzz phrase with almost no useful meaning, much like "liberal" and "conservative" in their current usage. Gmitch, I think to equate diversity with perversity is to attempt to inflame the discussion and I will not participate. You are, obviously, free to hold your own opinions. Congratulations and kudos for attending Wood Badge - you say this is your second time? Are you one of those few that is willing to surrender their beads in order to earn them again? There was a SM in the course I just staffed who did that - wow. Vicki

Ed, I'll try - to be honest it seemed so self-evident... As I read that thread it seemed to me that this is exactly the sort of situation the diversity ticket is meant to address. It's so easy to sit back in our smug little world and make assumptions about how accepting we are of differences. If we are forced, just once, to stick our heads outside our "box" and actually look at how others might see us and how we could change the way we look at them, that's a good thing. I don't know if ahoydave's troop had any 21CWB'ers in it, I don't know if they did, if anything would have been different. All I'm saying is that scouting happens on the local level and, with the diversity ticket, national is trying to shake a little bit of complacency loose on the local level and that's not a bad thing. Vicki

This thread, to me, proves the importance of the diversity ticket as a required item in the national syllabus. As a poster on Scouts-L is so fond of saying, "all scouting is local." http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=179405&p=3 Vicki

Our troop goes out of council every other year - I have been welcomed to attend ceremonies appropriate to my membership (Ordeal one year, Brotherhood the next) in two lodges. My own lodge would allow it. Vicki

OK, Ed, gotcha. This could evolve (or devolve?) very quickly into an issues forum question. So I'll just move on... Thanks for the clarification, Vicki

OK, Ed, second part of the question - how do you see what Tokala and I have said as different ("watered down") from what you've said? Vicki

Ed, that's why I asked for John's definition. I don't believe what I've said is necessarily "politically correct," nor is it watered down. So I'll ask you a different question which might clarify things. What do you see the diversity ticket item as encompassing? Vicki

CNY wrote, "I have to say the thing I dont like doing as the CC is the recharter and with the mess the recharter is in I dont know if I it is something I want to take on." CNY, as someone who has reconstructed the administrative side of two businesses and two churches (and I mean places where they didn't have their corporate documents, the financial statements were a mess, and accounting "systems" were nonexistent) I can sympathize with your feeling here. But this is the easy part, believe it or not. Once you have a copy of the old charter and the district knows you're working on it, you take a deep breath and proceed to fill in the blanks. Don't look at the big picture at this point, just talk to the administrative person at the district that knows what they're doing (usually NOT the professional, may even be the person answering the phone) and break it down into baby steps. This is in their best interest too, they certainly don't want to lose a unit. The hard part is on the people side. But even here, once you've talked to everybody you need new applications from (explaining carefully and over and over again that you're just here to make sure the groundwork is laid correctly) you'll know some people a lot better. The ones who get you what you need the fastest, who you only had to ask once, start cultivating. And, please take this in the intended spirit of helpfulness from afar, don't get so wrapped up in this that you lose sight of your Tiger. This isn't nearly as important as those Tigers. If you truly look in the mirror and think you won't be able to prioritize between the two, then I wouldn't do the CC job. Just a couple of thoughts, good luck, KISMIF, Vicki

Tokala wrote, "We have a course starting in 2 weeks, and as a staff have agreed that the emphasis of the diversity item is to challenge people to get involved with people of other color, income, ability/disability. We feel that this is truly what is intended by the diversity piece. Interaction across BSA program (Cubs ---> Boy Scouts) has been ruled as not fulfilling their diversity ticket item." I think Tokala was contrasting past habit in their council with this second paragraph, which is their current thought. This is what I agreed with as the approach our council takes. Contrary to how I am left to interpret John's and Ed's comments, there is definitely the possibility of offending someone when you take this approach. It needs to be outside of the participant's comfort zone. That's why folks get uncomfortable with it. Concrete examples: a participant wanted to get his troop more involved with Cub Scout packs in his area and let them know younger scouts were welcome. Not an acceptable diversity item. Same participant switched his emphasis to taking disability training offered by the district specifically addressing ADHD issues and having an instructor in to talk to the committee and troop parents. Following this, he is going to do a presentation for the PLC. This is acceptable. Another participant is going to prepare a presentation for a troop of predominantly blind scouts on how they can participate in NYLT. He is also going to work with the council camping professional on accommodations that would need to be made for blind scouts to participate. Vicki

John, please define "politically correct." I would like to make sure I understand what you mean, since these can be fightin' words in some parts... Vicki

I just finished staffing a course - what tokala wrote summarizes our approach quite nicely. The question I posed when asked if a particular proposal fit the definition was, "does it make you at least slightly uncomfortable?" If the answer was yes, well let's consider this seriously. Vicki "A Bear in a Bobwhite suit"

Rooster, as I worked on the Greek to English translation of the 1 Corinthians 6 v.9 - you're working from an old translation. The original Greek reference was to male homosexual rape as wrongdoing. Makes more sense in the context of thieves, adulterers, etc. Now, as a female type, I find it interesting that only male homosexual rape was considered worthy of condemnation, but then women were pretty much chattel anyway. That was another interesting thing about early Christians - the equality of women in the community until they started trying to accommodate themselves to society, at which point the female disciples like Lydia and Phoebe pretty much got written out. The ancient world was so much fun... Vicki

Sigh, I bought two more shirts and another pair of shorts to be on WB staff this year. So I'll have to stick with the old uniform. Especially since DH complains that I don't buy enough regular clothes at any price (I really hate to shop). I really like the canvas shorts though and the feel of the supplex shirt. Also like the socks. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

"My only concern is you might be 'competing' in a way with NAYLE and its delivery method, such that your graduates wouldn't want to go to NAYLE or think it a 'let down' to your course. " emb, if anything, scouts are less intimidated at the prospect of NAYLE and more likely to do it. Outdoor, high country, high adventure youth leadership training at Philmont! Great Scott, man, how could we possibly compete with that? Vicki

Interesting. The beauty of it is that we still use the classroom setting - the TGs haul around the laptops to facilitate their presentations and the participants gather 'round just like they do in camp. Vicki

Hmmm, OK. In our council, NYLT Pack and Paddle is an opportunity for 14 yr olds and up to take the NYLT course in a somewhat more challenging setting. We backpack for three days, eat Philmont food, teach bear bag techniques, purify water chemically, orienteer, and do all of the NYLT presentations and games. Then we canoe for three days, orienteer, purify water using clay filters, etc., and do the rest of the NYLT presentations and games. The NYLT shield awarded has a yellow border to it that says Pack and Paddle and we cover exactly the same syllabus as the camp-based program. I knew not everybody did this version, but are you telling me nobody else does this? Vicki

First off, I'm not in it for the beads. That said, I agree with foto - I've staffed NYLT (camp-based and Pack and Paddle), and I'm half-way through staffing WB (second weekend coming up). The level of commitment is in no way the same for adults. But I now have a much greater appreciation for what the youth staff do! If National were to come up with a recognition system for the youth I'd be all for it. All this stuff about adult recognition is something that should be cleaned off our shoes. BP established the bead system for adult leader training - I'm with other posters who think National has overstepped on this one and I'm not quite sure why they are messing with it in the first place? Our council runs four NYLT courses a year and two WB courses. There hasn't been a problem to date finding WB trained adults to staff NYLT (OK, maybe Pack and Paddle, but those of us who staff that are definitely not in it for the recognition). Vicki TG, C-04-08

In terms of pay, Scoutldr and Eamonn, scout camps are exempt from minimum wage requirements because they don't operate year-round and they are recreational in nature. This also puts scout camp employees in a different class from scout shop employees (since scout shops operate year round and are not recreational in nature). Here's the link to the Department of Labor regs - http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs18.pdf Vicki

I would suggest, for your PLC's consideration - Kia Kima, in Hardy, Arkansas; and Old Indian, near Greenville, SC (actual zip code location is Traveler's Rest). Both had wonderful facilities, including a dining hall (although I am one of those who prefers patrol cooking over dining hall), overall good mb programs, and great staff. On the quality of staff I would grade Old Indian higher than Kia Kima. Vicki

Just extrapolating from the three summer camps I've attended in three different councils - two were Venturing crews and young women were involved as instructors. One was traditional scouts in their home uniforms and none of the instructors were young women. I think the co-ed nature of Venturing may have something to do with the reasons for setting camp staff up as crews. I should add - I have no idea if they do anything as a crew during the off season. Vicki(This message has been edited by Vicki)

Somebody told me once that becoming a parent is allowing your heart to walk around outside your body for the rest of your life, God willing. God willing because the alternative is to lose the reason for allowing your heart out to go walkabout in the first place and that's unthinkable. Vicki

Hey, Pack, no problem. Safe travels, Vicki

GWD - got back Saturday rather late, back at work today (sigh). Can't say enough good things about COI! The staff was absolutely wonderful - polite, knowledgeable, fun, all the good stuff. The great majority of the MBs were done well and our first years really enjoyed the Pathfinder program. The Dance Pageant was incredible - those folks went to a lot of effort to learn authentic Cherokee dance movements and drum and it showed. It reminded me of a Pow Wow I went to in South Dakota. The OA callout was kind of disappointing, but I was unable to make it to the Thursday pre-ordeal ceremony, so maybe that made up for it. Being out of council, our candidates didn't go, so we brothers elected not to either (it was also really hot and humid and we were getting up early Friday to go white water rafting). Dining hall food, which was pretty good, although I really appreciated the salad bar. I continue to have a problem with the concept of serving high fat, high salt meat dishes in high temp, high humidity situations, but that seems to be the norm - the camp we went to a couple of years back in Arkansas (Kia Kima) had the same sort of menu. As a recent vegetarian I gave away the meat on my tray and really noticed the difference in my own well-being. We were in Underwood - upside, good breezes, downside, the entire campsite is one long, steep hill. We nicknamed it Mile High. The climb got really hard for everyone toward the end of the week. But the flush toilets and showers were a definite plus. I understand it took $2 million to put all the infrastructure in. What an investment! Also went white-water rafting - now THAT was fun! Thanks for asking, Vicki