bnelon44

G2SS makes it quite clear, you don't point a simulated fire arm at anyone else. Period. You know who does that? The US Army does that and paramilitary cadet corpes do that. Well, we are not a paramilitary organization and we don't do that.

And yea, we never were a paramilitary organization and the BSA has been fighting this since day one.

Remember the old drills? UK Scouting had those, I think they encouraged them. BSA tried to erradicate them early on. Especially after the problem with US Scouts. Well we were successful at doing so but it took decades. Now we are simply going the next step.

Again, the purpose of the policy is clear to anyone who has eyes to see.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

"Really, that's all we want to know. A straight answer would be nice."

I think the answer is read what is written, it is pretty obvious that any toy gun counts if it is pointed at another human being. The reason seems clear enough too. We don't teach Scouts to play war. We are not a paramilitary organization. Never were, never will be. If you want to play war, then play it outside of Scouting.

What is going on here is that some people don't want to take no for an answer and are willing to argue about it until the cows come home. Same argument surrounds laser tag and paint ball.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

EDGE is an easly method to teach a skill. It isn't the end all or be all. But kids remember it.

I haven't read all this thread, but didn't B-P use a method similar to EDGE at Brownsea?

He explained with they were going to learn and why it was important to learn it. Usually with gripping stories that boys understand. Then the next day he or someone he asked to, would demonstrate and guide the Scouts through the skill. Then they would have games to enable the Scouts to utilize the skills.

The following is B.-P.'s report on the camp:

"The troop of boys was divided up into 'Patrols' of five, the senior boy in each being Patrol Leader. This organization was the secret of our success. Each Patrol Leader was given full responsibility for the behaviour of his patrol at all times, in camp and in the field. The patrol was the unit of work or play, and each patrol was camped in a separate spot. The boys were put 'on their honour' to carry out orders. Responsibility and competitive rivalry were thus at once established, and a good standard of development was ensured throughout the troop from day to day. The troop was trained progressively in the subjects of scouting. Every night one patrol went on duty as night picket - that is, drew rations of flour, meat, vegetables, tea, etc., and went out to some indicated spot to bivouac for the night. Each boy had his greatcoat and blankets, cooking-pot and matches. On arrival at the spot, fires were lit and suppers cooked, after which sentries were posted and bivouac formed. The picket was scouted by Patrol Leaders of other patrols and myself, at some time before eleven p.m., after which the sentries were withdrawn and picket settled down for the night.

" We found the best way of imparting theoretical instruction was to give it out in short instalments with ample illustrative examples when sitting round the camp-fire or otherwise resting, and with demonstrations in the practice hour before breakfast. A formal lecture is apt to bore the boys. "The practice was then carried out in competitions and schemes.

"For example, take one detail of the subject, 'Observation' - namely tracking.

1. At the camp-fire overnight we would tell the boys some interesting instance of the value of being able to track.(EXPLAIN)

2. Next morning we would teach them to read tracks by making footmarks at different places, and showing how to read them and to deduce their meaning. (DEMONSTRATE AND GUIDE)

3. In the afternoon we would have a game, such as 'deer- stalking', in which one boy went off as the 'deer', with half a dozen tennis balls in his bag. Twenty minutes later four 'hunters' went off after him, following his tracks, each armed with a tennis ball. The deer, after going a mile or two, would hide and endeavour to ambush his hunters, and so get them within range; each hunter struck with his tennis ball was counted gored to death; if, on the other hand, the deer was hit by three of their balls he was killed." (ENABLE)

I am about to survey my district about how each unit handles gear. And I am looking for different approaches.

How does your troop manage troop, patrol and individual equipment needs? What is he extent of the patrol vs. troop equipment..... stoves, propane, lantern(s), dinnerware, dutch ovens, bow saw, kitchen tarp/EZup, folding tables, tents, backpacks, etc.? If there are patrol Quartermasters and a committee Equipment Coordinator, what are the duties of, or do you need a troop Quartermaster? Do you use troop funds (or donations) to provide tents (or other equipment) for checkout by patrols or do you purchase patrol tents or use individual/personal tents or have patrol money-raising events to purchase their own equipment? If troop or patrol owned equipment (like a tent) is damaged due to misuse, is/are the individual(s), that patrol or the entire troop responsible for repair/replacement?

I know that every troop approaches equipment differently and would be curious as to what seems to work best for troops of different sizes and different numbers of patrols.

Kudu,

Found it in The Patrol System by Philipps which is here:

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/Patrol%20System.pdf

"In Scouts' camps the tents are not pitched in lines and streets as in military camps, but are dotted about, 50 to 100 yards or more, in a big circle round the Scoutmaster's tent.

This keeps each patrol separate as a unit."

And in my copy of Scouting for Boys (34th Edition) it says something very similar. So it is indeed documented in authoritive UK Scouting guidebooks.

You are correct and I was wrong. Thanks for the pointer.

Still looking for some reference in official BSA handbooks that tell a PL or SM to camp that way.

I think most of us have done this anyway... more or less, depending on the age and maturity of the patrol.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

What ntrog8r said matches my experience as well. As patrols become more cohesive, they naturally tend to separate farther and farther apart while camping. Adults don't have to tell them where to camp.

SeattlePioneer

I see your entry repeated a bunch of times up there. Someone will have to clean it up

OK, time to share your best ideas. The BSA has put up a Best Practices Portal

It is in http://www.myscouting.org See the left side after logging in

Pedro is the Boys' Life mascot.

I don't remember the BSA ever having a mascot.

A lot of troops over the years have had mascots.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

I don't like the idea of a patrol necker. The tradition worldwide has been for the necker to identify the troop.

I have the same problem with summer camps handing out neckers that set a scout apart from his troop(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Yes, I would tend to agree that the 100 yards is a suggestion for a troop process. One that helps the patrol method, as it would help the patrols function as a unit and maybe convince them they can do things on their own. It doesn't seem to have been stressed though outside of an article by B-P in his version of scouting magazine. It is hardly a fundamental method of his idea of scouting and if a troop in the US doesn't practice it, it is somehow less of a troop.

Having said that, I am all in favor of independent patrol activities

There are lots of things patrols can do on their own without adults. And lots of things they can do separately from the troop with adult supervision. I think what we should be encouraging is that all patrols try to become more independent from the troop.

See the SRD PM survey results for my views on the subject that I recently shared with my district at: www.bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod

>No, but I would like to be proven wrong

OK, so it was not an official policy of B-P's but a suggestion that you found useful.

>"Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols."

That is a quote from the 1st Handbook for Scoutmasters which was completely reversed from the 1936 BSA Handbook for Soutmasters onward. Care should be taken not to take anything from the 1st Handbook for Scoutmasters as indicative of the BSA beyond 1929.

>You might try the early Wood Badge staff books for suggestions along the same lines. It was common practice to assign each Wood Badge Patrol its own Troop campsite

Thanks but it doesn't give me the instruction I was looking for.

I am glad you find 100 yards productive for your troop. And it may well be productive for other troops, but I guess it wasn't mandated, or even stressed by B-P or Hillcourt in any of their handbooks meant to be read by Scouts, PL or SMs.

Again, it may be a good idea, and it may not (depending on how independent and mature the patrol and Scouts are), but to say it is a fundamental institution of Scouting? I think I would have so see more evidence that this was ever the case.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

The biggest difference that jumps out at you when you read Hillcourt's PL & SM handbooks and the modern ones are the amount of skill training that Hillcourt puts in his leader books.

One problem with giving Scouts the old handbooks are all the LNT violations that are in them.

IMHO, the whole concept of the "Green Bar Patrol" would be good to reinsert into BSA SM training and provide skill teaching books to leadership.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Was 100 yards ever advocated by the BSA? If so, what are the references?

Also,I realize B-P suggested 100 yards in an Outlook article. Did he put it down as a "rule" in any of his handbooks? If so, what are the references?(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Naw, I asked the question about camping and was told the policy was already changing. Too many lawsuits.

Fact of the matter is that today the number of patrols that camped without adults (other than in someone's back lot) could probably be counted on one hand. This has more to say about the US society than anything else.

I did a survey of local troops and found that 70% of the patrols in those troops did not do any independent activities at all:

http://bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod

If you want to blame someone, blame the lawyers. (Shakespeare did)

However I may be the guy who asked enough questions to make national look a second time at this "one size fits all" approach to training.

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

I am about 1/2 way through Working the Patrol Method and it is an excellent read. They seem to be taking Hillcourts teaching and converting it to modern BSA lingo. I looks like it would be a good introduction to the Patrol Method to modern Scouters.

"A 1950s version is here..."

That is a UK Scouting PL Handbook. Not a Hillcourt one, which was referenced above.

That site, by the way, also has The Patrol System and Letters to a Patrol Leader by Roland Philipps. The first Patrol Leader handbook and the source of the saying, "The Patrol Method is not just a method of Scouting, it is the only method.

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/Patrol%20System.pdf(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Check inside the title page, if it is one of the new ones the printing date should be 2011

I heard today the PL Handbook will be back in supply at scoutstuff.org on 7/11 and in the scout shops shortly after.

It is a new printing. Some changes (like they added Webmaster as a POR in the SPL Handbook.)

The competency expected is that you do what the requirement says. Nothing more, nothing less to satisfy the requirement.

If you can do more, that is icing on the cake but doesn't count for advancement.

Though a few merit badges may have certain restrictions; short of them, any registered Scout may work on any one of them at any time, as long as he has the approval of his unit leader on the Application for Merit Badge, No. 34124 (commonly called the blue card). Although it is the responsibility of a Scoutmaster, for example, to see that a counselor is identified from those approved and made available, the Scout may have one in mind with whom he would like to work. He may also want to take advantage of opportunities at merit badge fairs or midways, or at rock-climbing gyms or whitewater rafting trips that provide merit badge instruction. This is acceptable, but the unit leader should still consider the recommendation and approve it if it is appropriate. Whatever the source, all merit badge counselors must be registered and approved.

There is no limit on the number of merit badges a youth may earn from one counselor. And approved counselors may work with and pass any member, including their own son, ward, or relative. But often we teach young people the importance of broadening horizons. Scouts meeting with counselors beyond their families and beyond even their own units are doing that. They will benefit from the perspectives of many teachers and will learn more as a result. They should be encouraged to reach out.

I have read the 1936 Handbook for Scoutmasters (some sections a few times.)

Interested in the impressions of this new book though. I have just started reading it and it seems pretty good to me. It trys to couch the Patrol Method to a modern audience, I think.

Working the Patrol Method

A Scout Leader's Guide to Youth Leadership Training

Curious if anyone has read this book and what you thought of it

http://www.scoutleadership.com/

I would like to give out a handout on helpful ideas for Scoutmasters to promote proper uniforming. Before I reinvent the wheel, has someone done this already that I can copy and distribute?

Bill

"If it hasn't been communicated properly to use volunteers in the field, how the heck are we suppose to know things? "

It will be published in the 2011 Guide to Advancement for all to see.

"And has national already got input from councils..."

No not yet, they are asking for info now. There are no changes planned for the near future that I know of.